OT Love's Return to Mini

[blue9]

Why ignore dirk then from that? Because it was only one year they won? They made it one other time and were consistently a top team in the west. Pointing to Iverson and Clyde to support your opinion and ignoring dirk makes no sense. For every example you use, there's plenty to counter. McGrady never getting out of the first round. Carmelo. Dominique. jerry Stackhouse. Why use Iverson and ignore dirk?

I said if you want to count Dirk, feel free. I personally don't because I feel like it was a one-and-done fluke - an exception to the rule. As I've already illustrated using the best PFs from the past 30 years, building around them doesn't work. You're countering my apples with oranges. If you could provide examples (other than "transcendent" Duncan/Dirk or the Payton/Kemp and Stockton/Malone "duos" already discussed) of teams built around PFs that made it to the Finals, then that would be an apples to apples counter.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

Having a power forward as your #1 has generally been a hard life for most teams (in terms of Championships, not including the spurs).

 

[blue9]

Aldridge is a center! Booyah!!!!!!

Tell it to him!

 

[blue9]

Having a power forward as your #1 has generally been a hard life for most teams (in terms of Championships, not including the spurs).

Bingo!

 

[RR7]

But ALL the evidence doesn't support that. You make excuses knocking pfs, ignoring similar benefits of wing players. Iverson missed the playoffs more often than he made them and yet you use him as someone easy to build around?

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

But ALL the evidence doesn't support that. You make excuses knocking pfs, ignoring similar benefits of wing players. Iverson missed the playoffs more often than he made them and yet you use him as someone easy to build around?

To be fair, Philly gave Iverson so very little to work with. He was basically LeBron in his first stint of Cleveland in terms of talent around him.

 

[RR7]

Jordan, Magic, and Bird were all transcendent players and didn't RELY on others, they were relied upon.

Over the past couple decades there have been numerous examples of teams trying to build around some of the best PFs and not going very far. There's a clear pattern that teams with PFs as their centerpiece just don't work as well as teams with guards/wings as their centerpiece. Setting aside transcendence there are only two teams (SEA/UTH) in the last 30 years that made it to the Finals with a team "built around" a PF...and even then, the PG was just as, if not more, important to the team's success.

And that's all I'm getting at - building around PFs will only get you so far. And now maybe you'll understand that my distaste for LMA stems from my belief that you don't build around PFs. All of the evidence suggests that PFs don't win championships. PFs should be ancillary players, not your highest paid, go-to player.

I said if you want to count Dirk, feel free. I personally don't because I feel like it was a one-and-done fluke - an exception to the rule. As I've already illustrated using the best PFs from the past 30 years, building around them doesn't work. You're countering my apples with oranges. If you could provide examples (other than "transcendent" Duncan/Dirk or the Payton/Kemp and Stockton/Malone "duos" already discussed) of teams built around PFs that made it to the Finals, then that would be an apples to apples counter.

wait so take out transcendant talent, take or dirk, and take out anyone who played with another great player. Well shit. If you or that many criteria on finding one, then sure. What wings are you going with? Can we also eliminate those that played with another top player?

 

[blue9]

wait so take out transcendant talent, take or dirk, and take out anyone who played with another great player. Well shit. If you or that many criteria on finding one, then sure. What wings are you going with? Can we also eliminate those that played with another top player?

My point is about teams built around PFs. There are 28 teams that miss the Finals every year - a good portion of them are going to be lead by wings, so there will be a lot of "evidence" showing that wings don't make it to the Finals (except it's not evidence of anything). But of the two teams that make the Finals each year, hardly any of them are headlined by a PF. I'm not sure why that's difficult to understand.

 

[RR7]

But most of those teams making the finals are lead by transcendent talent like LeBron, Durant, Jordan. So if you take out Duncan, we take those out as well. Then what teams are you left with?

 

[magnifier661]

wait so take out transcendant talent, take or dirk, and take out anyone who played with another great player. Well shit. If you or that many criteria on finding one, then sure. What wings are you going with? Can we also eliminate those that played with another top player?

Or transcending wing talent?

 

[magnifier661]

But most of those teams making the finals are lead by transcendent talent like LeBron, Durant, Jordan. So if you take out Duncan, we take those out as well. Then what teams are you left with?

The Detroit Pistons and that's it

 

[KingSpeed]

Jordan had 7 years without Pippen and failed to get past the second round. Kobe required Shaq and Gasol. Shaq couldn't do it by himself, Kobe couldn't do it by himself. LBJ couldn't do it by himself either. Even Magic couldn't.

And let's talk about Duncan.... Without Robinson the first title, it wouldn't have happened. Without Parker or Ginobli it wouldn't happen thereafter.

What are you talking about? Jordan didn't have 7 years without Pippen, lol.

 

[RR7]

The Detroit Pistons and that's it

Dallas with dirk, but apparently his 2 finals appearances don't count.

 

[blue9]

But most of those teams making the finals are lead by transcendent talent like LeBron, Durant, Jordan. So if you take out Duncan, we take those out as well. Then what teams are you left with?

I provided you with a list of non-transcendent players who made the Finals - none of them are PFs.
Include everybody and only 4 teams in the last 30 years were built around PFs (being generous and including the Payton/Kemp and Stockton/Malone teams that weren't truly centered around PFs, but were instead 1Bs).

 

[magnifier661]

What are you talking about? Jordan didn't have 7 years without Pippen, lol.

Oh forgive me. 5 years. It took 7 years before he won a title.

 

[magnifier661]

I provided you with a list of non-transcendent players who made the Finals - none of them are PFs.
Include everybody and only 4 teams in the last 30 years were built around PFs (being generous and including the Payton/Kemp and Stockton/Malone teams that weren't truly centered around PFs, but were instead 1Bs).

Dallas with dirk, but apparently his 2 finals appearances don't count.

I'm talking transcendentless player teams. Dirk is absolutely a transcendent player

 

[KingSpeed]

Oh forgive me. 5 years. It took 7 years before he won a title.

Try again. 3 years. Pippen was drafted and traded to Bulls in 1987. Also- Jordan missed almost an entire year in there so he really only played 2 seasons without Pippen. Learn the game, dude. Then post.

 

[magnifier661]

Try again. 3 years. Pippen was drafted and traded to Bulls in 1987. Also- Jordan missed almost an entire year in there so he really only played 2 seasons without Pippen. Learn the game, dude. Then post.

This only proves my initial comment with more validity. Even with Pippen for 4 years, he didn't mature until 7 years in the league. Dame did it in year 2

 

[KingSpeed]

You guys are throwing the word transcendent around too much. Jordan is and was the only transcendent player, a guy who was bigger than basketball. People who didn't even like basketball tuned into see him. Durant, LeBron,Dirk are not even close to Jordan. Fuck Durant didn't even get voted in by the fans, If you don't believe me about LeBron and the others, look at the ratings for the 6 Finals Jordan was in. Now look at everybody else. Not even close.

 

[BlazerDuckSeahawkFan94]

You guys are throwing the word transcendent around too much. Jordan is and was the only transcendent player, a guy who was bigger than basketball. People who didn't even like basketball tuned into see him. Durant, LeBron,Dirk are not even close to Jordan. Fuck Durant didn't even get voted in by the fans, If you don't believe me about LeBron and the others, look at the ratings for the 6 Finals Jordan was in. Now look at everybody else. Not even close.

LeBron has that kind of pull, remember the decision? Everyone and their dog had an opinion. Everyone tuned in to see him fail.

 

[blue9]

But ALL the evidence doesn't support that. You make excuses knocking pfs, ignoring similar benefits of wing players. Iverson missed the playoffs more often than he made them and yet you use him as someone easy to build around?

ALL of the evidence doesn't need to support it. But the preponderance of evidence supports the idea that teams built around PFs don't make the Finals. Again, as with EVERYTHING, there are exceptions to the rule and nothing is going to be one way 100% of the time.
And I'm not saying that I'd build a team around Iverson - I'm merely showing that, of the teams that have made it to the Finals over the past 30 years, the vast majority are built around guards/wings. Teams built around good guards/wings have a puncher's chance, teams built around good PFs generally don't.

 

[magnifier661]

You guys are throwing the word transcendent around too much. Jordan is and was the only transcendent player, a guy who was bigger than basketball. People who didn't even like basketball tuned into see him. Durant, LeBron,Dirk are not even close to Jordan. Fuck Durant didn't even get voted in by the fans, If you don't believe me about LeBron and the others, look at the ratings for the 6 Finals Jordan was in. Now look at everybody else. Not even close.

Wrong!!!!

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

LBJ actually had averaged better PER than Jordan during their finals campaign.

More LBJ fans than anyone in every gym

Learn the Game... Then post

 

[blue9]

You guys are throwing the word transcendent around too much. Jordan is and was the only transcendent player, a guy who was bigger than basketball. People who didn't even like basketball tuned into see him. Durant, LeBron,Dirk are not even close to Jordan. Fuck Durant didn't even get voted in by the fans, If you don't believe me about LeBron and the others, look at the ratings for the 6 Finals Jordan was in. Now look at everybody else. Not even close.

I'd ascribe the word to Jordan, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Hakeem, and to a lesser extent Kobe, LBJ, and Shaq (Shaq only because he was so damn big and dominant, not because of his skills).
Right now we don't have that type of player in the league.

 

[RR7]

ALL of the evidence doesn't need to support it. But the preponderance of evidence supports the idea that teams built around PFs don't make the Finals. Again, as with EVERYTHING, there are exceptions to the rule and nothing is going to be one way 100% of the time.
And I'm not saying that I'd build a team around Iverson - I'm merely showing that, of the teams that have made it to the Finals over the past 30 years, the vast majority are built around guards/wings. Teams built around good guards/wings have a puncher's chance, teams built around good PFs generally don't.

but you kind of countered this point when earlier you said of course it was easier to find failures because so many more teams were built around them. So then, naturally, you'd find a higher number succeeding. How many teams are built in general around PFs versus wings? How many percentage wise make the playoffs versus percentage of teams built around wings?

 

[blue9]

but you kind of countered this point when earlier you said of course it was easier to find failures because so many more teams were built around them. So then, naturally, you'd find a higher number succeeding. How many teams are built in general around PFs versus wings? How many percentage wise make the playoffs versus percentage of teams built around wings?

Well, now you might be on track to providing a meaningful counter-argument, but I'm not going to make your argument for you. Earlier in the thread I gave you a list of some of the best PFs that teams built around that didn't amount to much, which could be a good starting point. If you go down this route realize that you'll be comparing 3 positions worth of players (PG, SG, SF) vs 1 position worth of players (PF), so there's bound to be a good deal more teams built around guards/wings.

 

[Daweez04]

after Roy was done, there were 2 years Aldridge "failed to get us to the playoffs" as well. I'd be pissed more with our management if they made stupid decisions often, and chose to insult our best player for an unproven player. If we didn't draft Lillard and instead took Austin rivers there, and then saved our 5 year extension for rivers, and Aldridge left the following season, I wouldn't boo him when he returned or support our franchise being happy be was gone just because he couldn't get us to the playoffs.

The difference is LMA puts up the same numbers whether the team is a playoff team or not. Guys like Love and Bosh all but disappear on their more "elite" teams. LMA is what makes the Blazers "elite". To me, it shows they are all about their numbers and not necessarily winning.

 

[PDXFonz]

And I don't see how what you take away is them feeling like they're better without him. If they just showed their young guys? Absolutely. Even if they just highlighted the guys they got in the deal. Fine. To have a video talking about the return of Mike miller is just lame. I'd be pissed if the Blazers did something similar, personally.

I guess you and I have a differing opinion on the talent level of that roster. I think Love should have been able to carry the Wolves to the playoffs at least once with that roster. He was never even close.

 

[KingSpeed]

Wrong!!!!

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jamesle01.html

LBJ actually had averaged better PER than Jordan during their finals campaign.

More LBJ fans than anyone in every gym

Learn the Game... Then post

Dude. I'm talking television ratings. People that didn't care about basketball watched Jordan. Jordan's TV ratings WAY better than LeBron's.

 

[KingSpeed]

LeBron has that kind of pull, remember the decision? Everyone and their dog had an opinion. Everyone tuned in to see him fail.

No. 2007 Finals was one of the lowest rated finals ever.

 

[Strenuus]

No. 2007 Finals was one of the lowest rated finals ever.

Was that before or after the decision? Because LBJ Transcended when the decision happened. He did the ol' WWE Face/heel swap. They made a damn "Heat index" page on E!SPN just so they could have a whole section about him.

I wonder what the finals ratings were from 08-14?