Man Offered Holder's Ballot in DC - Project Veritas

[Ed O]

Locking the door is a convenient way of securing your home and it's something we do on a daily basis. It doesn't prevent burglary but it deters it. How many homes are built without locks on the front door?

Facial recognition also deters bulglary but how many homes come with this technology?

None of that is relevant to my analogy. You're extending it unnecessarily.

Right, also taking time off from work. Try living the rural south for a while.

The only people that don't need to worry about taking time off of work are those who don't work because they're rich or they are unemployed.

Again, sending in people to physically cast fraudulent votes is time consuming, expensive and risky. Who has those kinds of resources?

People who have nothing but time on their hands.

Who has time to, say, occupy Wall Street?

It inconveniences some more than others. You're OK with that?

Of course I am. Buying a car or crossing the street or eating ice cream inconveniences some more than others. Nothing in life is exactly equitable.

Nobody even knows if this is a problem or not? We're just passing these laws just in case?

Lots of people know it is a problem. This video articulates the problem.

When was the last time we had an issue with the legitimacy of elections?

Too often. It's why these laws are being passed.

Ed O.

 

[barfo]

When was the last time we had an issue with the legitimacy of elections?

Bush v. Gore, 2000.

barfo

 

[jlprk]

What is the argument against it?

The benefit of the status quo outweighs the cost.

The benefit of the current system is that millions of poor people won't vote if it makes it easier for the government to track their locations. If you don't understand the feelings of poor people, I recommend you try it for a few years.

The cost of change is the trouble and effort created for no gain. It is improbable that a large number of organized voters in one jurisdiction, who possess a list of registered voters they know won't vote in this election, each secretly votes under one of those names, careful not to use the same name twice, necessitating some formal bookeeping structure. This hypothetical situation is unknown in history except when a local mafia has controlled the city's politics and vote verification. Tammany Hall machines are now gone in this country. If any new one arises, it will be easier to report it to the FBI than to verify every vote in the nation forever.

It's interesting that those opposed to more government regulation and bureaucracy are opposed only as long as it regulates business owners, not the poor.

 

[MARIS61]

That it is somehow harder for poor people or certain races to obtain state ID than it is for you or I is absurd. My 83 year old mother who has never driven a car, lives out in the boonies and has no internet managed to get her passport all by herself. I have had photo ID for most of my life as have all of you. Most people in Mexico and Canada also have it. It's about as common as anything else in life. You don't even have to speak english to get one.

Unless you're saying poor people are all retarded, I just don't see your arguement as credible.

 

[MARIS61]

When was the last time we had an issue with the legitimacy of elections?

When Gore beat Bush. But then they threw out some votes, counted others twice, counted some for the wrong candidates, then let the right-wing scotus hand Bush the keys to the white house.

If you don't think that election and it's treasonous manipulation didn't have a huge negative impact on our country then I guess you missed 2 wars and a depression.

 

[bluefrog]

When Gore beat Bush. But then they threw out some votes, counted others twice, counted some for the wrong candidates, then let the right-wing scotus hand Bush the keys to the white house.

If you don't think that election and it's treasonous manipulation didn't have a huge negative impact on our country then I guess you missed 2 wars and a depression.

Voter fraud wasn't an issue in that situation though.

I've been out of the states for a while but I can't recall a single time an election was called into question because of voter fraud.

 

[Denny Crane]

The ID card seems a lot like a poll tax. But people do have to be legit and register to vote.

Maybe the solution is to give people a card when they register that they can trade for a ballot.

 

[jlprk]

It's a bogus issue, created by Republicans to decrease Democratic votes. Similar practices were the poll tax, IQ tests slanted toward trivial facts that whites tend to know more, requiring that voters be landowners, gerrymandering rural districts in proportion to their livestock populations, etc. Rich conservatives have active imaginations due to idle time. To stop the poll tax, Democrats had to push through a Federal constitutional amendment in the 60s.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

It's a bogus issue, created by Republicans to decrease Democratic votes. Similar practices were the poll tax, IQ tests slanted toward trivial facts that whites tend to know more, requiring that voters be landowners, gerrymandering rural districts in proportion to their livestock populations, etc. Rich conservatives have active imaginations due to idle time. To stop the poll tax, Democrats had to push through a Federal constitutional amendment in the 60s.

common sense people

but if EVERYONE voted, we would be fucked though, so i see the reasoning

 

[bluefrog]

Why not dye people's fingers like they did in Iraqi elections? It's cheap, reliable and convenient. Of course people without fingers could abuse the system...

 

[Masbee]

Voter fraud wasn't an issue in that situation though.

I've been out of the states for a while but I can't recall a single time an election was called into question because of voter fraud.

Are you serious? Really?

 

[jlprk]

Are you serious? Really?

I don't know of any, either, recently. Before 1980 Chicago used to have the Daly machine, a cover for the Mafia, so I mentioned Tammany Hall.

 

[Masbee]

It's a bogus issue, created by Republicans to decrease Democratic votes. Similar practices were the poll tax, IQ tests slanted toward trivial facts that whites tend to know more, requiring that voters be landowners, gerrymandering rural districts in proportion to their livestock populations, etc. Rich conservatives have active imaginations due to idle time. To stop the poll tax, Democrats had to push through a Federal constitutional amendment in the 60s.

Attempts at Voter ID, Vote Security, Vote Integrety always being equal to disenfranchisement is a BOGUS issue created by Democrats in order to justify their refusal to improve those areas as they see strategic value in keeping the current status quo (ie: reactionary; ironic no?).

As I said earlier, these players can't logically have it both ways. Either they launch a campain to remove requirements to produce photo ID in order to obtain a job (Union backed laws); go to school (universal free education supported by Dems); get government medical care (ObamaCare requirement - Dems only ones who voted for this law); get welfare or food stamps (new requirements to clamp down on rampant fraud);

or, they accept that NOW (not in the 1960's), it is all but impossible to function in the U.S. without proper ID, and in reality a campaign to sign up the small number of holdouts without this ID (for free and so that they can vote) would be a HUGE public service campaign that would immensely help those among the poor. Now they will be able to (or more easily able to) apply for government benefits, job applications, school applications, etc.

But, I guess Holder is more concerned about losing the votes of felons and illegals and other assorted vote stuffing than he is about helping the very lowest rungs to have a slightly easier time and slightly better shot at functioning in this country.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

the issue is tabulation fraud

 

[jlprk]

You were challenged to demonstrate that your bogus issue is a problem, and you came up 8 high. Admit it. You're trying to win elections the old-fashioned voter fraud way, by keeping millions of disenfranchised away from voting.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

Does it stop more people from drinking alcohol legally than it does stop people from drinking illegally?

i would say yes, yes it does.

do you think on any given day...
more legal people are denied because they left their id at home
or
more illegal people are denied trying to buy before they are 21

i rarely tried to buy a hip flask of panther sweat before i was 21, but i have quite a few times been denied after i turned 21 because i left my id in the car or at home, same with going to a bar

 

[Masbee]

link please

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/sc...leading-election-software-provider-2012-01-11

SCYTL bought SOE.

Soros may be involved with SCYTL. SCYTL is controlled by Balderton which is run mostly by Goldman Sachs alum. SCYTL CEO, Pere Valles is from Chicago and ran GlobalNet previously, which was big Obama 2008 contributor.

http://investing.businessweek.com/r...iousTitle=Scytl Secure Electronic Voting, S.A.

 

[PapaG]

How is getting a free photo ID card a "poll tax", Denny? Will Obama's national ID card for heathcare be a "health tax"?

I'm just wondering how many registered voters out there don't have a photo ID to begin with? How does that work?

 

[Ed O]

i would say yes, yes it does.

do you think on any given day...
more legal people are denied because they left their id at home
or
more illegal people are denied trying to buy before they are 21

i rarely tried to buy a hip flask of panther sweat before i was 21, but i have quite a few times been denied after i turned 21 because i left my id in the car or at home, same with going to a bar

So... it sounds like the ID requirement for buying alcohol worked, right? Knowing that you would be carded stopped you (seemingly) from even trying. The cost is that it's a pain in the butt to be denied entry to a bar or to the booze if you've forgotten your ID.

The same logic, I would submit, applies to voting.

Ed O.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

The same logic, I would submit, applies to voting.

Ed O.

exactly, 1000s of people will be stopped from legally voting, to weed out the 2 or 3 that try to illegally

guess if the fewer people that vote the better, mission accomplished

 

[Ed O]

exactly, 1000s of people will be stopped from legally voting, to weed out the 2 or 3 that try to illegally

guess if the fewer people that vote the better, mission accomplished

That fewer people overall would vote is inherent in restrictions. Just as putting restrictions on buying alcohol.

The intent is to restrict fewer people from voting illegally, just as putting restrictions on buying alcohol.

Do you believe that we should remove ID restrictions from buying booze? If so, then I salute your consistency and we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.

Ed O.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

yes ed, voting = alcohol

do you think we should have to show id to have sex? if so then i guess we will just have to agree to disagree

 

[DaLincolnJones]

this is the crux of the matter. its obvious to anyone with a half a brain why conservatives are so up in arms about this issue. they want less poor people to vote.

anyone that thinks there is anything more behind all this "omg voter fraud!" is just fooling themselves.

if you want to learn about voter fraud, look at the electronic voting systems that are, not very coincidentally, supported by conservatives

Ok, for me the root of the problem is this.

Take into account that the illegal alien population in Oregon is somewhere near the 300k mark. The last election we had for govoner in the state, the spread was about ten percent of that number. One candidate wanted to give hand outs and coddle these people, the other had a differing opinion.

With the ability to vote without being a citizen, thanks to the motor voter law and other hyper sensitive measures, and the large campain ads ran on spanish stations, who do you think captured the election?

The arguement has nothig to do with economics, rather is, in my opinion, the best way to keep non citizens from stealing an election.

 

[Ed O]

yes ed, voting = alcohol

I don't understand what's so funny. Identification requirements serve as barriers to participation and as enforcement of laws.

They don't need to be exactly the same to have the same logic applied to both.

Ed O.

 

[jlprk]

You Republicans need to put up or shut up. Again--show me one election whose winner was changed by unqualified individuals voting. After the Mafia era, like in the last 30 years. And it has to be from individual effort, not from a state government like Florida throwing a presidential election on purpose, which IDing wouldn't have changed.

If you can't, then you are simply arguing for more government regulation without purpose. Carding voters has no more purpose than carding grocery shoppers. You like to list activities which require ID, but you conveniently forget the infinitely longer list of activities which don't require it.

 

[Ed O]

You Republicans need to put up or shut up. Again--show me one election whose winner was changed by unqualified individuals voting. After the Mafia era, like in the last 30 years. And it has to be from individual effort, not from a state government like Florida throwing a presidential election on purpose, which IDing wouldn't have changed.

That's an arbitrary standard. Why should the voters of states that have passed these laws have to show that? It seems just as fair for the people who disagree with them to show actual harm of the laws.

If you can't, then you are simply arguing for more government regulation without purpose. Carding voters has no more purpose than carding grocery shoppers. You like to list activities which require ID, but you conveniently forget the infinitely longer list of activities which don't require it.

There is something that ties the acts that require ID with the act of voting: a public interest. There is a public interest in regulating law, in limiting alcohol consumption, and in knowing that a driver is insured. While voting is not the same as any of those things, it is much closer than someone picking up dry cleaning or buying a television or playing laser tag.

Ed O.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

you dont have to show id in some states to buy booze/smokes/porn if you look older than 35, maybe they should card all the young looking voters

 

[Denny Crane]

How is getting a free photo ID card a "poll tax", Denny? Will Obama's national ID card for heathcare be a "health tax"?

I'm just wondering how many registered voters out there don't have a photo ID to begin with? How does that work?

The ID isn't free. You have to take off work to go get it. It's an obstacle to going to the polls.

What may seem "free" and trivial to you may not be to someone with 3 jobs and kids to support.

 

[Masbee]

The ID isn't free. You have to take off work to go get it. It's an obstacle to going to the polls.

What may seem "free" and trivial to you may not be to someone with 3 jobs and kids to support.

Lame.

Impositions on citizens duties are not any excuse.

Jury duty?

 

[Denny Crane]

Lame.

Impositions on citizens duties are not any excuse.

Jury duty?

The right to vote has a special status among obligations/rights. It's almost sacred.

If you don't like Jury Duty, you can always vote for people who change how it works. If you can't vote, you can't change how anything works.