Marshall or Lillard?

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Marshall or Lillard?

  • Kendall Marshall

    Votes: 18 30.5%
  • Damian Lillard

    Votes: 41 69.5%

  • Total voters
    59
That said, the Blazers also badly need someone that can create their own shot and make plays.

This is exactly what we need. This is the first off-season in a while where we don't have anyone remotely like this. We need to draft two of these folks and start the better of the two.
 
Just for shits and giggles:
Code:
               Height     Wingspan  ppg final yr college  assists/gm       fg%      3pt%
Stuckey:      6'3.75"     6'7.25"      24.6 (soph)            5.5          45.3      26.7 (37.2 previous year)
Lillard:      6'1.75"     6'7.75"      24.5 (snr)             4.0          46.7      40.9  (34.5 prev. yr.)
N. Smith:     6'1.5"      6'5.5"       20.6 (snr)             5.1          45.8      35.0 (39.2 prev. yr.)
E. Williams:  6'4?        ???          17.9 (soph)            3.8          45.9      36.6 (diff team prev. yr)
 
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Lillard's assist numbers are almost identical to Porter's. Porter didn't turn out too bad.

I love Marshall's passing, but I don't even want to think about a PG who can't hit the three and who can't stay in front of Westbrook and Parker.
 
Lillard's assist numbers are almost identical to Porter's. Porter didn't turn out too bad.

Of course, Porter put up those assist numbers while playing power forward, so...
 
Lillard's assist numbers are almost identical to Porter's. Porter didn't turn out too bad.

Porter and Billups are anomalies. Was Terry even playing PG at Steven's Point? And besides, he shared PG duties with Clyde, the same way that Parker and Ginobili do. Lillard's assist numbers are also identical with Nolan Smith's.

I love Marshall's passing, but I don't even want to think about a PG who can't hit the three and who can't stay in front of Westbrook and Parker.

If there is one skill that players acquire in their NBA careers, it's hitting the three. See Robert Horry, Rasheed Wallace, Channing Frye, Jason Kidd et. al. And NOBODY can stay in front of Westbrook and Parker. That's why teams have been putting longer players (Thabo Sefalosha) on them.

Here's a good post about Marshall's limitations:

As I have stated in the past, I want to use the draft to grab guys that have unique skill sets that I am unlikely to find in free agency or the trade market. When you look at Kendall Marshall, he is the rarest of the rare. Since Draft Express launched in 2001, Kendall Marshall’s 10.7 assists per 40 minutes adjusted is the HIGHEST in the history of their data base, and he is also #1 All-Time in Pure Point Ratio. That is the definition of elite. Oh, and his assist to turnover ratio is a putrid 3rd highest of all players since 2001. What a disappointment!

Now comes the part where people say, “Yeah, but he can’t score.” Really, because I saw him score when he wanted to. What I didn’t see is Harrison Barnes score when Marshall went down with an injury. We had UNC blogger Brian Barbour come on a few weeks back and tell the story of UNC’s February match-up with rival NC State. Apparently, some of the coaches from NC State called Marshall “one-dimensional” (like many uneducated critics do). Marshall responded with 22 points on just 8 shots, including 4-5 from three. Oh, and he had 13 assists and ZERO turnovers to go with it. After the game he replied, “One-dimensional, huh?”
 
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Here's a good post about Marshall's limitations:
What I didn’t see is Harrison Barnes score when Marshall went down with an injury. We had UNC blogger Brian Barbour come on a few weeks back and tell the story of UNC’s February match-up with rival NC State. Apparently, some of the coaches from NC State called Marshall “one-dimensional” (like many uneducated critics do). Marshall responded with 22 points on just 8 shots, including 4-5 from three. Oh, and he had 13 assists and ZERO turnovers to go with it. After the game he replied, “One-dimensional, huh?”

I love this--it shows Marshall has that "let me prove everyone wrong" attitude too, as well as a demonstrated record of making his team better. I don't care about what a certain player can do on his own, or one on one. Does he help his team win? That's why I picked Marshall.
 
I love this--it shows Marshall has that "let me prove everyone wrong" attitude too, as well as a demonstrated record of making his team better. I don't care about what a certain player can do on his own, or one on one. Does he help his team win? That's why I picked Marshall.

Woo-hoo! Welcome to the cause, brother! (Well, probably you were there before me, but I started the thread...)

The other slight red flag I have with Lillard is that apparently he played poorly in the games against big schools. (I'm prepared to be proved wrong on this.) Also, Ed O. should be with us because Marshall's over a year younger.
 
Westbrook wasn't a PG coming out of college

He still isn't. But Westbrook basically didn't play much. Westbrook is proof that Sam Presti really is a genius.

I agree a true PG could make Aldridge/Wes/Batum all better players than they currently are.

THANK YOU!

That said, the Blazers also badly need someone that can create their own shot and make plays.

As you said later: Deron Williams it is.
 
I like both but...

I still would opt for Kendell Marshall. One of the best passing PG's college has seen in the last decade.
 
A fair point. However, my main point is that Stuckey has turned out not to be a PG, despite better assist numbers in college. Lillard's PG ranking is one of the worst in Draft Express's rating of draft-worthy PGs this year. We already have short SGs who were stars in college. We need a FUCKING POINT GUARD.

I haven't seen Lillard play, so I can't really offer any sort of real opinion on his abilities. You are correct in noting that Portland needs a PG in the sense of this current Blazer lineup would benefit from having someone who can get others involved and run the offense. That said, I doubt Portland is going to win a championship next season so adding talent is paramount

STOMP
 
I haven't seen Lillard play, so I can't really offer any sort of real opinion on his abilities. You are correct in noting that Portland needs a PG in the sense of this current Blazer lineup would benefit from having someone who can get others involved and run the offense. That said, I doubt Portland is going to win a championship next season so adding talent is paramount

STOMP

agree, "adding talent is paramount"!
 
Wish KP was here to make this decision. Thinking he would get it right.

With that said. Webber State as a reason not to take Lilliard. Let's go back to the Western Conference Team of the early 90's.

Terry Porter-Wisconsin Stevens Point

Clyde Drexler-University of Houston

Kevin Duckworth-Eastern Illinois

Jerome Kersey-Longwood College/VA

Buck Williams-Maryland

The competition for four of five of those starters in college was probably less than anything Lillard faced in college. And look how they contributed. Don't look at what or who they faced collegiately. Look at the facts about the player. Speed, Quickness, Shooting, Agility, Measurements, Character, Instincts, Intangibles, Work Ethic, Ability to get better, Willingness to get better. That's all I'm saying.
 
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Terry Porter-Wisconsin Stevens Point

Clyde Drexler-University of Houston

Kevin Duckworth-Eastern Illinois

Jerome Kersey-Longwood College/VA

Buck Williams-Maryland

The competition for four of five of those starters in college was probably less than anything Lillard faced in college.

No way, Buck and Clyde both faced much tougher competition in college. Buck played in the extremely competitive ACC and his career at Maryland overlapped other great ACC big men like Ralph Sampson, Sam Perkins, James Worthy, etc. Back then, Virginia, UNC, Duke, Maryland and Wake Forest were some of the top teams in the nation.

Clyde's Houston teams went deep into the NCAA Tournament his last two seasons (final 4 and championship game). In the SWC, Arkansas with Joe Kleine, Scott Hastings, Alvin Robertson and Darrell Walker was one of the top teams in the country during Clyde's time at Houston.

With most players staying in school all four years, or at least three years, college teams were much deeper back then and the top teams in the major conferences all had multiple future NBA players on their rosters. If you went deep in the NCAA tournament back then, you played against a lot of future NBA players and multiple future Hall of Famers. No way has Lillard at Weber State played against the same level of competition as Buck and Clyde did in college.

That doesn't invalidate your point, players (the right players) from small schools playing against weak competition can have successful NBA careers (Pippen, Rodman, etc.), it's just not the norm. Given the weak competition Lillard faced in college, I'd be much more interested in how he does at the camps and in workouts than is his college stats.

BNM
 
I'd be happy to trade up to get the better prospect -- Robinson/Beal/MKG



(And I'm very high on Marshall)
 
Fez, what happened to your sig. Are you flip-floppin?
 
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I like Marshall but their "best case/worst case" comparison is totally screwy. If he really were Jose Calderon in the worst case, he would be a high lottery pick. And Calderon is a great shooter, and Miller was a great college scorer. I guess they're trying to pick active players (hence, no Mark Jackson) but even so. How about "Ricky Rubio without the defense"?
 
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I like Marshall but their "best case/worst case" comparison is totally screwy. If he really were Jose Calderon in the worst case, he would be a high lottery pick. And Calderon is a great shooter, and Miller was a great college scorer. I guess they're trying to pick active players (hence, no Mark Jackson) but even so. How about "Ricky Rubio without the defense"?


Yeah, the best case/worst case comparisons are just plain bad.

Marshall has incredible court vision, both in transition and in the half-court. In the right system (D'Antoni) he could be a great floor general. His defense is Steve Nash bad, but unfortunately he can't shoot like Nash or even finish like Nash. With his inability to finish in the paint, he REALLY needs to develop a lights out, pull-up mid-range jumper (like Nash). Unfortunately, he only attempted 17 mid-range jumpers all last season - and only made 3 of them.

The best comparison I can think of right now, based on his game as he enters the NBA draft, is Sergio Rodriguez: great vision, great passer, HORRIBLE defender, unathletic, can't finish at the rim, poor shooter. I think Marshall has the potential to be better than Sergio, because he seems like a harder worker and more of a student of the game. He seems to understand his weaknesses and what he needs to improve in order to compete at the NBA level. So, hopefully, he'll have a longer, better NBA career than Sergio.

BNM
 
Marshall has incredible court vision, both in transition and in the half-court. In the right system (D'Antoni) he could be a great floor general. His defense is Steve Nash bad, but unfortunately he can't shoot like Nash or even finish like Nash. With his inability to finish in the paint, he REALLY needs to develop a lights out, pull-up mid-range jumper (like Nash). Unfortunately, he only attempted 17 mid-range jumpers all last season - and only made 3 of them.

Yeah, that's not so good. He would be forced to score more in the NBA. Maybe if he could develop a post-up game, like Dre?

The best comparison I can think of right now, based on his game as he enters the NBA draft, is Sergio Rodriguez: great vision, great passer, HORRIBLE defender, unathletic, can't finish at the rim, poor shooter. I think Marshall has the potential to be better than Sergio, because he seems like a harder worker and more of a student of the game. He seems to understand his weaknesses and what he needs to improve in order to compete at the NBA level. So, hopefully, he'll have a longer, better NBA career than Sergio.

That comparison did cross my mind, but I didn't want to say it in part because I'm trying to defend Marshall here, but also because Sergio is a much flashier dribbler. I also get the impression that Marshall is less happy-go-lucky, more competitive. (That said: as I've mentioned in another thread, Sergio has finally developed a three point shot, and is doing well for Real Madrid right now.)

How about "old Jason Kidd"? Big, slow, shoots the three (see the video), not really a scorer. That player at least has a ring.

It's worth noting that Marshall is still quite young. And he was a winner and more of a scorer in high school:

Marshall led Bishop O'Connell to the 2010 Virginia Independent Schools Division I championship as a senior. He also led Bishop O'Connell to the semifinals of the Washington Catholic Athletic Conference. He averaged 15.3 points, nine rebounds and six assists as a senior.

When you've got the scorers that he had at UNC on your team, you shouldn't really be shooting.
 
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Given that this is the Blazers we're talking about, it's worth noting that both players have injury histories: Marshall injured his wrist and elbow in the NCAAs and Lillard missed all but 9 games of his junior year with a broken foot.
 
Yeah, that's not so good. He would be forced to score more in the NBA. Maybe if he could develop a post-up game, like Dre?

I didn't like the Andre Miller best case comparison at all, because right now Marshall absolutely can't score in the paint (can't finish, no mid-range game and no post game) and that's the ONLY place Miller can score consistently. He has good height, but short arms for a PG and is also very unathletic. Given those limitations, I'm not sure how effective he could be in the low post. I think his best bet is to work tirelessly on developing that pull-up mid-range jumper that is a dying art in the NBA. Andre Miller has it, and so does Rip Hamilton and Steve Nash (all unathletic guys by NBA standards), but not many others. If Marshall can develop that, it will compensate for his inability to finish at the rim.

That comparison did cross my mind, but I didn't want to say it in part because I'm trying to defend Marshall here, but also because Sergio is a much flashier dribbler. I also get the impression that Marshall is less happy-go-lucky, more competitive.

That echos my comments about Marshall being a harder worker and student of the game. Sergio was like a kid when he was here. He just liked to hang out with his buds and have fun. He never seemed to be willing to put in any work to improve his (many) weaknesses. I used to watch him during shoot arounds and he was always goofing off and not really working on his actual game.

(That said: as I've mentioned in another thread, Sergio has finally developed a three point shot, and is doing well for Real Madrid right now.)

It's too bad it took a failed NBA career for him to finally wake up and improve one of his weaknesses. In the NBA, defenses quickly learned that Sergio couldn't shoot. That allowed them to play off of him and defend the passing lanes - taking away the ONE thing he did well. And, that spelled the end of his NBA career. When the Blazers traded him to Sacramento, I successfully predicted he'd be out of the NBA when his rookie contract was up. One trick ponies, with multiple glaring weaknesses just don't last in the NBA.

Right now, Marshall is a bit of a one trick pony at the NBA level, but he's very young and seems to have the work ethic to improve. With his incredible court vision and passing ability, all he really needs is to develop ONE consistent way to score to be reasonably successful at the NBA level. If he can develop two (mid-range pull-up jumper AND 3-point shot), he could be a very good NBA point guard. That makes him a bit of a high risk/high reward lottery pick. Which is why he'll probably go near the end of the lottery, maybe even mid-teens. At this point it's too hard to predict how good (or how bad) he'll end up at the NBA level. He could be anything from a marginal back-up to a quality starter. That's a pretty big swing. Taking him at 11 is a reach. At 14 - 16, he'd be worth taking a chance on.

How about "old Jason Kidd"? Big, slow, shoots the three (see the video), not really a scorer.

Due to the amazing court vision, I think the Marshall/Kidd comparisons will always exist. I think more of a young Jason Kidd without the defense. Kidd was a horrible shooter when he came into the league, and remained so few a few years. He was an outstanding defender in his younger days and still plays very smart team defense. Marshall will never have the ability to play lock down 1-on-1 defense the way Kidd did in his younger years. So, he needs to become a smart team defender. Like Kidd, he will also need to improve his shooting. As good as he is in other areas, Marshall's poor athleticism will prevent him from ever becoming the player Kidd is/was. Due to his athletic limitations, he'd be better off patterning his game after Steve Nash. I'm not saying he has Nash like potential, just that they share some of the same basic strengths (court vision and passing) and same limitations (poor athleticism and horrible defense). Nash overcame his weaknesses by becoming one of the best shooters (mid-range, 3-point and FTs) in the entire history of the NBA. It's unrealistic to expect Marshall to develop into the next Steve Nash, but he at least needs to become an above average shooter to be a decent starting NBA PG.

When you've got the scorers that he had at UNC on your team, you shouldn't really be shooting.

True, but at the NBA level if you're a guard that can't shoot you WILL fail. Teams will just sag off you and play the passing lanes and deny penetration. You won't be able to drive and dish and you will effectively be playing 4-on-5 on offense with the ball in the hands of your least dangerous scorer. Guys like Nash, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, etc. all became great players because they improved their shooting at the NBA level. Even if you don't shoot a lot, you have to shoot well enough to keep NBA defenses honest. If you can't, hello NBDL, or if you're lucky, Europe.

BNM
 
Fez, what happened to your sig. Are you flip-floppin?

No, sir!

I get the sense that the Blazers want a vet PG to fill that void.

Other factors why I'm Robison-over-Beal is the crop of PF/C in the next two drafts: it's as weak as it's been in years. The Blazers need major help with their froncourt. Can't hurt getting a monster like T-Rob.
 
True, but at the NBA level if you're a guard that can't shoot you WILL fail. Teams will just sag off you and play the passing lanes and deny penetration. You won't be able to drive and dish and you will effectively be playing 4-on-5 on offense with the ball in the hands of your least dangerous scorer. Guys like Nash, Stockton, Kidd, Payton, etc. all became great players because they improved their shooting at the NBA level. Even if you don't shoot a lot, you have to shoot well enough to keep NBA defenses honest. If you can't, hello NBDL, or if you're lucky, Europe.

BNM

That's false and you listed guys who can not shoot. Or couldn't shoot. And there are others. Rondo. Rose isn't a good shooter. Obviously, their other skills are far superior than what many expect of Marshall.
On the broadcast the other day, an announcer mentioned how the Heat playing well off of Rondo was actually helping him, likening it to a QB in football getting time to sit back in the pocket. By playing far off, it gave him the ability with his great court vision to find open teammates more easily than if a guy was maybe right in his face.
Marshall showed an ability to score towards the end of the season if needed. Generally, it was not needed because of his superior teammates, so he made the smart play, something a PG should do, and didn't force the issue to score, knowing it was unnecessary. When it was, he showed he could. And do it well. Seems like most assume he is what he is, and will never improve, especially his outside shooting. But then assume someone like Beal who shot worse is a great shooter, and one of his strengths.
 
No, sir!

I get the sense that the Blazers want a vet PG to fill that void.

Other factors why I'm Robison-over-Beal is the crop of PF/C in the next two drafts: it's as weak as it's been in years. The Blazers need major help with their froncourt. Can't hurt getting a monster like T-Rob.

It is a little early IMO to judge the next two years drafts for big men. Last year at this time was Robinson even a consideration? I thought he barely even played the year before. Point is there are guys who will emerge.
 
It is a little early IMO to judge the next two years drafts for big men. Last year at this time was Robinson even a consideration? I thought he barely even played the year before. Point is there are guys who will emerge.

Exactly. There's already two bigs that are highly rated in Cody Zeller and McAdoo. I'm sure there will be plenty more that emerge.
 

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