Matthews' Slow Start

[PapaG]

Means absolutely nothing. The Blazers switch so much that DRTG - if it is not absolutely out of whack of the team (as Oden was tons better than the team last year, for example) - is not a reflection of his defensive prowess - the Blazers defensive efficiency this year is better that it was last year - and this is without the good contributions we got from Oden/Joel at the start of the year and the great contributions we got from Camby at the end of the year - and most of it comes from the improved perimeter defense thanks to having Wes and Nic play a lot together.

Well, that's an opinion. The statistics say that Matthews is the worst in Drtg of the starters (w/Camby), tied with Batum. Yet, Batum brings an Ortg of 115.

Anyhow, I don't want to debate Matthews' impact, other than to say statistically, it seems inflated.

 

[RR7]

PER doesn't tell the whole story of the role he is asked to play on the team.

 

[Minstrel]

If a 15 PER player with a 109 Drtg is some sort of "gotcha!", I fail to see how that is the case.

I don't know about a "gotcha." A young, average starter is a good return on the MLE.

and as a starter, he's proven to be a downgrade over Brandon Roy.

Not particularly relevant. He wasn't signed with a stated intent of being a player as good as Roy.

 

[Natebishop3]

He was 14.8 going into last night's game.

If a 15 PER player with a 109 Drtg is some sort of "gotcha!", I fail to see how that is the case. Besides, he was struggling early this season, and as a starter, he's proven to be a downgrade over Brandon Roy.

That said, he has his moments, and is playing well the past two games. Let's hope he carries the momentum into after the AS Break.

Downgrade from a healthy Brandon Roy or a gimpy Brandon Roy?

 

[MIXUM]

batum will need new excuses on why he sucks.

although his wifes new pic on twitter may be distracting him. what an ass!

 

[oldguy]

batum will need new excuses on why he sucks.

although his wifes new pic on twitter may be distracting him. what an ass!

What a coincidence, I was thinking the same thing.

Go Blazers

 

[PapaG]

I don't know about a "gotcha." A young, average starter is a good return on the MLE.



Not particularly relevant. He wasn't signed with a stated intent of being a player as good as Roy.

If you recall, he said he'd have the opportunity to start when he signed the offer sheet. He stunk off of the bench; now that he is starting, he is an average SG who has his moments. Not a bad player at all, just not a very good player, either.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

Matthews is what he is: an upgrade over Martell Webster.

http://bkref.com/tiny/UYR9d

He's a better shooter, and more efficient offensively. I think the focus on offense has made him work less on defense; I'm a little underwhelmed by his ability to stop his man. Maybe he was overrated, or maybe Utah was better defensively than the Blazers. And maybe Martell was underrated defensively. Regardless, given his FG%, 3P%, and FT% (as well as his ability to get to the line more), I'm glad to have him filling Roy's shoes instead of Martell.

 

[MIXUM]

if we didnt have matthews....

lets just say that we would be more interested in college basketball in march then the blazers.

 

[BlazerCaravan]

if we didnt have matthews....

lets just say that we would be more interested in college basketball in march then the blazers.

That's definitely true. While he's streaky, he's a good player and a solid starter. I'm glad to have him around.

 

[blazerboy30]

Well, that's an opinion. The statistics say that Matthews is the worst in Drtg of the starters (w/Camby), tied with Batum. Yet, Batum brings an Ortg of 115.

Anyhow, I don't want to debate Matthews' impact, other than to say statistically, it seems inflated.

This is laughable. You're basically saying, "I don't want to discuss what the statistics mean, once I find a statistic that agrees with my bias". LOL.

 

[B-Roy]

I really like Matthews, don't get me wrong, but sometimes he does try to do too much, and it shows.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8827

According to that, Matthews is the 6th biggest "Black hole" SG in the league. Take from it what you will.

 

[e_blazer]

I really like Matthews, don't get me wrong, but sometimes he does try to do too much, and it shows.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/blog/?p=8827

According to that, Matthews is the 6th biggest "Black hole" SG in the league. Take from it what you will.

Yeah, I just saw that on Blazersedge. Brandon is #9, which I don't think surprises anyone. Matthews definitely needs to learn to look around a bit when he starts making a move to the hole. Once he's heading that direction, even if there are 3 shot blockers in front of him, the thought of passing to somebody else doesn't seem to even enter his mind.

 

[RoyToy]

I'm fine with Matthews being a "black hole". Overstatement aside this team has too many players on this roster that aren't aggressive enough on offense and pass up wide open shots for more difficult ones. Matthews otoh isn't afraid to make things happen and the result has been a good season from him.

 

[e_blazer]

I'm fine with Matthews being a "black hole". Overstatement aside this team has too many players on this roster that aren't aggressive enough on offense and pass up wide open shots for more difficult ones. Matthews otoh isn't afraid to make things happen and the result has been a good season from him.

I agree with that, but he also gets stuffed at the rim a lot. He's doing fine for a 2nd year player, but he'll be even better when he learns not to over-commit and to dish the ball off to avoid getting blocked.

 

[RoyToy]

Also

And that's perhaps where the idea of a player as a black hole is most misunderstood: it cannot be used plainly as pejorative. A player is not bad or overrated or a jerkface because he doesn't pass much. It's not a value judgment, it's a style judgment, a classification.

Wesley is a scorer, not a playmaker. It doesn't make him a terrible person.

 

[andalusian]

I think the way Mathews is used - him shooting a lot is just fine - he is just not used as a play-maker for others a lot - he sure has some games where you wonder why he shoots as much as he does - but it never seems to be glaringly out of the offense.

 

[B-Roy]

Also



Wesley is a scorer, not a playmaker. It doesn't make him a terrible person.

No one said it was bad...

 

[PapaG]

This is laughable. You're basically saying, "I don't want to discuss what the statistics mean, once I find a statistic that agrees with my bias". LOL.

I meant that the opinion of Matthews seems inflated when you look at the actual stats. He's been average as an aggregate according to PER, and below average compared in terms of Drtg. Yet, I've seen him called the second best player on the team by at least one poster.

Congrats on getting my post completely wrong.

 

[andalusian]

I meant that the opinion of Matthews seems inflated when you look at the actual stats. He's been average as an aggregate according to PER, and below average compared in terms of Drtg. Yet, I've seen him called the second best player on the team by at least one poster.

These are not proper individual statistics. If they were, the great Bruce Bowen, during SAS's last championship run (2006-2007) would not have had a DRTG 5 points worse (103 vs. 98) than Manu Ginobili. Manu was not 5 points/100 possessions better than Bowen. The statistics do not matter if they are not properly attributed to an individual.

Just for fun I looked at the DRTG on SAS in 2004-5 (another championship year) - and again, Manu's DRTG of 98 was better than Bowen's 102. Went back to 2002-2003 (another championship year) - and again Manu at 98 is significantly better than Bowen (103). If anyone looks at these statistics and claims that Manu was a better defender than Bowen - he is out of his mind. These statistics are not relevant to the discussion - as they are an observation not a root cause.

The place where DRTG really makes sense is in comparison to other team-mates to look for outliers. If you see these - you can carefully look at game tape to see if this individual is really tons better or tons worse than his teammates - something that was rather obvious on last year's team where Greg Oden's and Camby's DRTG is significantly lower than the people they play next to - not a real surprise as they were the defensive anchor of the team last year.

 

[PapaG]

These are not proper individual statistics. If they were, the great Bruce Bowen, during SAS's last championship run (2006-2007) would not have had a DRTG 5 points worse (103 vs. 98) than Manu Ginobili. Manu was not 5 points/100 possessions better than Bowen. The statistics do not matter if they are not properly attributed to an individual.

Just for fun I looked at the DRTG on SAS in 2004-5 (another championship year) - and again, Manu's DRTG of 98 was better than Bowen's 102. Went back to 2002-2003 (another championship year) - and again Manu at 98 is significantly better than Bowen (103). If anyone looks at these statistics and claims that Manu was a better defender than Bowen - he is out of his mind. These statistics are not relevant to the discussion - as they are an observation not a root cause.

Congrats on getting my post completely wrong.

[/QUOTE]

103 is still a very good Dtrg, regardless of what Ginobli ended up with. 109, not so much.

My observation tells me that Matthews has been an average player who has moments where he explodes, yet just as many moments where he disappears. In other words, he's wildly inconsistent in what you get from him, just like most other average NBA players.

It's my opinion that Matthews is overrated by some people. Don't know what else to tell you, other than we disagree on him.

This doesn't mean that I don't cheer for him as a player; it means that I have lower expectations for his nightly performance than others might have.

 

[andalusian]

103 is still a very good Dtrg, regardless of what Ginobli ended up with. 109, not so much.

Again, useless without looking at the rest of the team.

The Blazers, as a whole, have a DRTG of 107, Wes's 109 (usually guarding the opponent's best player) is a smaller delta (-2) than Bowen's was from the Spurs 99 DRTG (delta of -4).

The reality is - that DRTG is not a statistic you can use in a vacuum - without looking at the role (who you guard) and your team-mates. Before Oden went down last year, the team was 2nd in the league (to the Celtics) in defensive efficiency, at the time LMA had a fantastic DRTG of 102 - he ended up at 107 - did he just stop playing defense when Oden went down? No - it is not a good individual statistic in a vacuum.

My observation tells me that Matthews has been an average player who has moments where he explodes, yet just as many moments where he disappears. In other words, he's wildly inconsistent in what you get from him, just like most other average NBA players.

My observation is that he is inconsistent (not wildly inconsistent, Martel Webster was much more inconsistent if you ask me) - which is to be expected from a 2nd year player. But, he is always playing hard and his defense is more than adequate.

It's my opinion that Matthews is overrated by some people. Don't know what else to tell you, other than we disagree on him.

You can disagree as you want - but DRTG is just not a good statistic to measure an individual's defensive prowess in a vacuum. He gives you an average starter production on offense and an above average production on defense, which is just great for a 2nd year player.

This doesn't mean that I don't cheer for him as a player; it means that I have lower expectations for his nightly performance than others might have.

I have no clue what expectations others have for him - I want him to continue playing hard and get better - I do not have any indications that he is not on track to achieve that.

 

[blazerboy30]

I meant that the opinion of Matthews seems inflated when you look at the actual stats. He's been average as an aggregate according to PER, and below average compared in terms of Drtg. Yet, I've seen him called the second best player on the team by at least one poster.

Congrats on getting my post completely wrong.

And congrats, again, on finding and then misusing stats that align with your bias.

 

[RR7]

Drtg used as an individual statistic shows us that Carlos Boozer is a top 5 defender this season. Michael Beasley was a top 20 defender last season.

 

[PapaG]

Drtg used as an individual statistic shows us that Carlos Boozer is a top 5 defender this season. Michael Beasley was a top 20 defender last season.

So, Matthews is an elite defender? He doesn't even defend the opposing team's best player on most nights. That falls to Batum.

Average PER, average stats, wildly inconsistent = average NBA starter. I'm not sure why this would upset people.

 

[PapaG]

Again, useless without looking at the rest of the team.

The Blazers, as a whole, have a DRTG of 107, Wes's 109 (usually guarding the opponent's best player) is a smaller delta (-2) than Bowen's was from the Spurs 99 DRTG (delta of -4).

I know this, I posted it in the first place. I also noted the difference between 103 and 109. Care to repeat that as well?

The reality is - that DRTG is not a statistic you can use in a vacuum - without looking at the role (who you guard) and your team-mates. Before Oden went down last year, the team was 2nd in the league (to the Celtics) in defensive efficiency, at the time LMA had a fantastic DRTG of 102 - he ended up at 107 - did he just stop playing defense when Oden went down? No - it is not a good individual statistic in a vacuum.

I know this. I'm just pointing out that there is no statistical evidence to suggest that Wesley Matthews is anything other than an average NBA starter. I'll gladly address the statistics that show otherwise; the problem is, I haven't seen any yet in this thread. All I see is people telling me that the actual statistics prove the opposite of what they prove, or something like that.

My observation is that he is inconsistent (not wildly inconsistent, Martel Webster was much more inconsistent if you ask me) - which is to be expected from a 2nd year player. But, he is always playing hard and his defense is more than adequate.

Inconsistent, wildly inconsistent, tomayto, tomahto

You can disagree as you want - but DRTG is just not a good statistic to measure an individual's defensive prowess in a vacuum. He gives you an average starter production on offense and an above average production on defense, which is just great for a 2nd year player.

Above average production based on what? Observation?

I have no clue what expectations others have for him - I want him to continue playing hard and get better - I do not have any indications that he is not on track to achieve that.

Neither do I. I just don't think he is "there" at this point; others seem to think he is there.

 

[MickZagger]

[video=youtube;6ffHqMaUCTw]