Mavericks at Blazers 12/25/2008 Game Thread

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yuyuza1 said:
He has no defensive instincts, he can't hit foul shots, and for all that boxing out that you talked about, a 5'9 guy had more rebounds than him.

Horrific night.
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boxing out doesnt equal rebounds. i cant see why people are blaiming oden
 
The Sebastian Express said:
Uhm. You realize that JJ had 9 rebounds because Greg was blocking out and battling Brandon Bass and tipping rebounds out while Steve Blake decided to let little 5'9 JJ Barrea run right by him and pick up the ball, right?
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That is partially true, yes.

But I wasn't referring to only the fourth quarter.

Edit: there were numerous instances earlier in the game where Greg just lacked focus and let guards grab the ball off long rebounds.
 
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julius said:
If there ever was to be a time capsule buried, that was for the Trail Blazers, the one clip in it will be of someone missing a free throw.
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Great post.

barfo
 
Nikolokolus said:
Maybe you didn't see that heartbreaker against Orlando, or possibly the woeful Clippers going off against us?
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The heartbreakers fall into the "Crap happens" category.

The Clippers were just plain hot and the Blazers were tired on a back-to-back.

This one sucks the worst, IMO, because the Blazers had the game in hand and then let a scrub midget PG beat them and give a win to a team that the Blazers are going to have to beat out for a playoff spot.
 
ehizzy3 said:
boxing out doesnt equal rebounds. i cant see why people are blaiming oden
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Blaming Greg is an easy, and lazy way to just make noise to sound smart.
 
These losses hurt because we don't seem to learn anything from them. It's all isolation plays that lead to the opposing team running a fastbreak on us in the 4th quarter.

We simply need smarter players at some positions and maybe, just maybe a play making PG that doesn't stink on D.
 
A PG that can finish would be nice. It's so annoying to watch Steve Blake have a clear path to the basket and all he does is drive, jump in the air and throw it to the other team. Lay the fucking ball up.
 
RoyToy said:
A PG that can finish would be nice. It's so annoying to watch Steve Blake have a clear path to the basket and all he does is drive, jump in the air and throw it to the other team. Lay the fucking ball up.
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jerryd bayless
 
If Steve Blake isn't shooting a 3pter he's basically useless.
 
Awful fourth quarter. I really thought we had the momentum at the end of the third. Terrible pick and roll D, awful foul shooting the whole game, no help for Greg on the boards, and Mr. Fourth Quarter Brandon Roy didn't show up at all.

Kind of a rotten cherry on my Christmas sundae, but I think we'll get it turned around. I predict many many defensive drills in the next practice.
 
craigehlo said:
These losses hurt because we don't seem to learn anything from them. It's all isolation plays that lead to the opposing team running a fastbreak on us in the 4th quarter.

We simply need smarter players at some positions and maybe, just maybe a play making PG that doesn't stink on D.
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A veteran SF, a defensive PG, and a banger backup PF as well as a new coach is our list of needs right now IMO. I think some different offensive and defensive schemes would help greatly in addition to those things.
 
A team with play-off aspirations can't lose games like this on their home floor.

The Mavs were the more experienced team - that can't be helped. The Mavs also out-hustled the Blazers tonight - and that CAN be helped.

As for Penknife, the "patience" argument is wearing thin. It would be one thing if he was inconsistent....but he is just consistently mediocre. This goes beyond the after effects of the knee injury. I am becoming convinced that his problems are from the neck up.
 
I don't know why people don't see the real problem. It is the coach and the lack of a quality point guard. Steve Blake is a shooting guard as far as I am concerned.

Dirk can't guard your momma and he gets four fouls and NOBODY goes after him on offense. Put Channing stupid Frye in there and go to him and MAKE him go to the whole five or six times in a row. Dirk WILL foul or Channing will score....Channing! I don't care if Channing got 5 offensive fouls either, you still have to take advantage of this stuff.

I am starting to think that Nate's first word was switch. Whaddya gonna do on defense Nate? Switch.
Hey Nate, you want a Coke? Switch
Hey Nate, merry Christmas. Switch.


Hey Nate, what do you call that thing you use to turn lights on and off? Television.

Do the Blazers have a real classroom to sit down in and learn some fundamentals? I watch guys on other teams follow their own shots, yet I see Travis launch a brick three from the corner and he looks lost but kinda wants to run back on D. If he had taken two steps toward his own basket, the ball would have come directly to him and he probably could have had a dunk.

I guess that would be fine if it translated into the team not giving up easy baskets on fast breaks, but somehow our team doesn't follow their own shots AND we give up layups. Good combo.

I think I am going to have to cut back on watching these games, not because I don't like the team and don't want them to do well. Only because there are some real growing pains left ahead. Oden doesn't know which way is up these days and I blame Nate for getting his head messed up. It started with Nate opening night when Batum got benched despite being told he was starting. Nate is like the boss you have who is always changing his mind for no reason. You can't win with a guy like that.

A new coach and a new pg will make a world of difference.
 
nate is getting a little tiresome, we dont seem to play the right style to match our line-ups these days.
 
we are a horrible, horrible defensive team. poor greg keeps having to take on guys who have burned our guards on the perimeter. we never find shooters in transition. we can't defend the pick and roll. we can't deal with a screen without switching. and we always go zone at the wrong time.

i find it laughable that nate is considered to be a defensive coach. he's been a head coach for 8 years. he's never, ever had a decent defensive team.
 
julius said:
Blaming Greg is an easy, and lazy way to just make noise to sound smart.
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Ask yourself . . . why is it so "easy"?

Because he hasn't played well. Do you realize he has 20 fouls and 12 rebounds in the last 4 games? Are you kidding me? How can you NOT blame him?

He looks confused & demoralized. I can't believe how bad this guy is. It is WAY too early to call him a bust - so anybody that does that at this point is an idiot. But I don't see even the makings for an All Star. I don't even see Jermain O'Neal type of talent (more or less Bill Russell) and that guy played TERRIBLE here. At least he'd "Wow" you with his athleticism from time to time. In addition to playing with no emotion and not executing for crap, he doesn't show the raw athletic ability I thought he had. His knee? Sure, probably slowing him down a bit. But he doesn't look hurt - he's not limping, or even favoring it. I'm adjusting my expectations for him - at this point I HOPE he PANS OUT to be a solid Elden Campbell type. Hell, I'd settle for a Joel Pryzz clone. I'm throwing my Bill Russell dreams out the window - Bill Russell never played like this. I was cracking up at how Reggie Miller was shocked at Oden's Offense . . . "Greg is EXTREMELY limited on offense right now". Yeah, no kidding. And his defense isn't much better.

I'm not going to say that I wanted Durrant either - b/c that would be a lie. I'll go on record now though. I wish we had picked KD. Geez, how nice would it be to have KD/Roy as a 1-2 punch?
 
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mikeg said:
we are a horrible, horrible defensive team. poor greg keeps having to take on guys who have burned our guards on the perimeter. we never find shooters in transition. we can't defend the pick and roll. we can't deal with a screen without switching. and we always go zone at the wrong time.

i find it laughable that nate is considered to be a defensive coach. he's been a head coach for 8 years. he's never, ever had a decent defensive team.
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No doubt. Our guards can't keep guys out of the paint even when they sag off of them, and people expect a rookie who had MF surgery to leave his man and block the shot or force a miss and get the rebound himself? Greg might as well grab the ball and run the fast break himself too. During timeouts he should sell popcorn in the stands and act as security for any rowdy fans too.

Nate is considered a defensive coach because his offensive schemes are worse than his defense. Gotta pick one or the other I guess.
 
Kaydow said:
Ask yourself . . . why is it so "easy"?

Because he hasn't played well. Do you realize he has 20 fouls and 12 rebounds in the last 4 games? Are you kidding me? How can you NOT blame him?

He looks confused & demoralized. I can't believe how bad this guy is. It is WAY too early to call him a bust - so anybody that does that at this point is an idiot. But I don't see even the makings for an All Star. I don't even see Jermain O'Neal type of talent (more or less Bill Russell) and that guy played TERRIBLE here. At least he'd "Wow" you with his athleticism from time to time. In addition to playing with no emotion and not executing for crap, he doesn't show the raw athletic ability I thought he had. His knee? Sure, probably slowing him down a bit. But he doesn't look hurt - he's not limping, or even favoring it. I'm adjusting my expectations for him - at this point I HOPE he PANS OUT to be a solid Elden Campbell type. Hell, I'd settle for a Joel Pryzz clone. I'm throwing my Bill Russell dreams out the window - Bill Russell never played like this. I was cracking up at how Reggie Miller was shocked at Oden's Offense . . . "Greg is EXTREMELY limited on offense right now". Yeah, no kidding. And his defense isn't much better.

I'm not going to say that I wanted Durrant either - b/c that would be a lie. I'll go on record now though. I wish we had picked KD. Geez, how nice would it be to have KD/Roy as a 1-2 punch?
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He looks like a guy who has a coach who has him switch on pick and rolls and sit on the perimeter or pick up ticky tacky fouls trying to guard guys 6-8 inches shorter than him who are driving right by him.

And everyone can keep saying oh his knee sure whatever it should be fine now it isn't that big of a deal.

Every single player who has had microfracture surgery has said it takes at least a year after returning to trust it again - for it to feel right. Kidd, Webber, Amar'e, Zach, hell it took Darius two years to come back, Grant, the list goes on and on.

Just for a minute objectively look at what he is going up against:

1. Major knee surgery.
2. A rookie big man (pretty sure the first player who had microfracture before his rookie year started and had to miss an entire year of it. Those other guys got to at least play in the nba first and know what to expect while dealing with the additional year on their knee).
3. A coach who has a defensive scheme that leaves him out on the perimeter far too often.
4. Sitting an entire year where he couldn't start playing five on fives until September of this year. That's a lot of time off without playing any basketball in between. There's going to be a lot of rust and timing issues.
 
mikeg said:
we are a horrible, horrible defensive team. poor greg keeps having to take on guys who have burned our guards on the perimeter. we never find shooters in transition. we can't defend the pick and roll. we can't deal with a screen without switching. and we always go zone at the wrong time.

i find it laughable that nate is considered to be a defensive coach. he's been a head coach for 8 years. he's never, ever had a decent defensive team.
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I've been wondering that too this whole time. My only worry with getting a vet is that Nate won't know how to use him and our D will still suck.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
He looks like a guy who has a coach who has him switch on pick and rolls and sit on the perimeter or pick up ticky tacky fouls trying to guard guys 6-8 inches shorter than him who are driving right by him.

And everyone can keep saying oh his knee sure whatever it should be fine now it isn't that big of a deal.

Every single player who has had microfracture surgery has said it takes at least a year after returning to trust it again - for it to feel right. Kidd, Webber, Amar'e, Zach, hell it took Darius two years to come back, Grant, the list goes on and on.

Just for a minute objectively look at what he is going up against:

1. Major knee surgery.
2. A rookie big man (pretty sure the first player who had microfracture before his rookie year started and had to miss an entire year of it. Those other guys got to at least play in the nba first and know what to expect while dealing with the additional year on their knee).
3. A coach who has a defensive scheme that leaves him out on the perimeter far too often.
4. Sitting an entire year where he couldn't start playing five on fives until September of this year. That's a lot of time off without playing any basketball in between. There's going to be a lot of rust and timing issues.
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1) You're right. He deserves some slack for the surgery. But I saw him play at Ohio State 15 times and it's not like he looked explosive then either. It was his hand then, it's his knee now. I guess I can agree to listen to people make excuses for the guy for another year. If he hadn't of gone 25/12 against Florida (Noah/Horford) I might have favored Durrant. Durrant might have been the best college freshman I've ever seen. But a good big man is more valuable than a SF . . .

2) I'll give you that.

3) No way. That's not been the majority of Greg's fouls. He flat out got handled by Shaq & Nene (2) this last week. It's a variety of things really. Sometimes he gives up post position too early. Sometimes an athletic big like Nene faces up and Greg doesn't (or can't) move his feet. There are times (as you pointed out) where he comes out too high on the pick/roll or is forced to help out.

4) Maybe I'm too impatient. But, I thought we'd see some of that rust chipped off by now. He's been back from the foot injury for 23 games. He doesn't seem to retain anything game to game - he makes the same mistakes over and over.
 
Kaydow said:
1) You're right. He deserves some slack for the surgery. But I saw him play at Ohio State 15 times and it's not like he looked explosive then either. It was his hand then, it's his knee now. I guess I can agree to listen to people make excuses for the guy for another year. If he hadn't of gone 25/12 against Florida (Noah/Horford) I might have favored Durrant. Durrant might have been the best college freshman I've ever seen. But a good big man is more valuable than a SF . . .

2) I'll give you that.

3) No way. That's not been the majority of Greg's fouls. He flat out got handled by Shaq & Nene (2) this last week. It's a variety of things really. Sometimes he gives up post position too early. Sometimes an athletic big like Nene faces up and Greg doesn't (or can't) move his feet. There are times (as you pointed out) where he comes out too high on the pick/roll or is forced to help out.

4) Maybe I'm too impatient. But, I thought we'd see some of that rust chipped off by now. He's been back from the foot injury for 23 games. He doesn't seem to retain anything game to game - he makes the same mistakes over and over.
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3). I didn't see that has a been a majority of his fouls, but he has gotten fouls out there. It's very counter-productive for Nate to be running that scheme. It also got Aldridge burned tonight a couple of times.

He did get handled by Shaq for the first three quarters of the game in Portland, but in the 4th he completely negated him and that tickled me to death. He banged pretty well with Nene actually but again got some fouls (legit and ticky tacky) and had to sit.

4). I think we'd see the rust chipping off at a faster pace if he had gotten his knee injury in his second or third year and then was coming back. He's pretty much having to adjust to playing at nba speed, against very big and skilled nba post players who know all the tricks, while shaking off the rust and learning to trust the knee again. That's pretty much going to lead to a lot of things going on at once and a lot of overthinking. I'm confident he'll get over it.

As for not retaining anything I'm going to have to disagree. He's gotten a lot better at not getting stripped when going up with the basket, and his jump hook move looks a lot smoother than it did at the start of the season.
 
The Sebastian Express said:
3). I didn't see that has a been a majority of his fouls, but he has gotten fouls out there. It's very counter-productive for Nate to be running that scheme. It also got Aldridge burned tonight a couple of times.

He did get handled by Shaq for the first three quarters of the game in Portland, but in the 4th he completely negated him and that tickled me to death. He banged pretty well with Nene actually but again got some fouls (legit and ticky tacky) and had to sit.

4). I think we'd see the rust chipping off at a faster pace if he had gotten his knee injury in his second or third year and then was coming back. He's pretty much having to adjust to playing at nba speed, against very big and skilled nba post players who know all the tricks, while shaking off the rust and learning to trust the knee again. That's pretty much going to lead to a lot of things going on at once and a lot of overthinking. I'm confident he'll get over it.

As for not retaining anything I'm going to have to disagree. He's gotten a lot better at not getting stripped when going up with the basket, and his jump hook move looks a lot smoother than it did at the start of the season.
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Let me ask you this - what it is you think Greg is going to be? You think 15/10? 20/12?

I'm sure he will improve some, but I don't see anything super special. I think 15/10 is more realistic. It's just not what I had hoped for when we picked him in front of a for sure 25-30 ppg guy in Durrant (which he will be in his prime)
 
Kaydow said:
Let me ask you this - what it is you think Greg is going to be? You think 15/10? 20/12?

I'm sure he will improve some, but I don't see anything super special. I think 15/10 is more realistic. It's just not what I had hoped for when we picked him in front of a for sure 25-30 ppg guy in Durrant (which he will be in his prime)
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I don't mean to sound like a broken record if someone has already said this, But Durant is a pretty piss poor defender. Our perimeter defense is already bad as is, With Durant it would be even worse. Oden was the right choice.
 
Kaydow said:
Let me ask you this - what it is you think Greg is going to be? You think 15/10? 20/12?

I'm sure he will improve some, but I don't see anything super special. I think 15/10 is more realistic. It's just not what I had hoped for when we picked him in front of a for sure 25-30 ppg guy in Durrant (which he will be in his prime)
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I think that depends on the coach. I think 20-12 once he gets his legs under him, the rust off, and trust in his knee again is possible with the right coach. However, I'd gladly take 15/10 if he lives up to his defensive potential (and I have every faith he will).
 
The Sebastian Express said:
I think that depends on the coach. I think 20-12 once he gets his legs under him, the rust off, and trust in his knee again is possible with the right coach. However, I'd gladly take 15/10 if he lives up to his defensive potential (and I have every faith he will).
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Well Sebastian I hope you're right.

Frankly, that is very hard to imagine for me. I think of some of the biggest improvements I've seen a player ever make - Greg at 20/12 would be monumental. When Dwight Howard came into the league, he got 12/6 on his raw ability - made a ton of mistakes but showed dominating flashes. I haven't seen much of anything jaw dropping from Oden. Now, if 15/10 and solid D is what the new expectation is . . . I'll adjust. You certainly can't call him a bust. But I thought we were getting a 20/12 guy who could ALSO dominate a game defensively. A guy who was the catylist for a couple of championships. A future MVP candidate and perenial All Star.

Otherwise, why didn't we pick Durrant? EVERYBODY knew KD was a future 25/ppg guy and a fierce competitor.

I'll eat my words if I'm wrong, but GO doesn't look like the guy we thought would bring titles to Rip City.
 
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