Merged: Crabbe Traded to Brk

[Boob-No-More]

If Gordon was not injury prone, he wouldn't be getting paid just 13 mil/yr. But it still is a huge factor

That was his market value before last season. After playing over 2300 minutes and winning Sixth Man of the Year, I don't think it's unreasonable to think his market value has increased.

BNM

 

[chzbrgr]

If Gordon was not injury prone, he wouldn't be getting paid just 13 mil/yr. But it still is a huge factor

There are qualifiers for almost every contract in the NBA that isnt a max deal. If Brooklyn wasnt so desperate AC wouldnt be making 19m per. See? it's really easy to do that. Of course if Gordon was always healthy he'd probably be a max or near max player, but he's not always healthy, so he isnt paid to his skill level.

 

[blue9]

Did you miss the part where the TPE can't be part of a package deal?

BNM

We'd just do the TPE for Gordon first, and then the rest of the trade would go through as a separate deal.

 

[Natebishop3]

I can't imagine this is the only domino to fall. They're trying to improve the roster and I don't think Dame/CJ would be pleased if we dumped Crabbe for nothing.

I think maybe we have been putting pressure on Houston to do Ariza/Gordon/filler for Harkless/pick maybe?

If we're losing Crabbe and Harkless and gaining Ariza/Gordon, that gives us a couple of vets who will help us in the playoffs. Start Ariza in place of Harkless and give Gordon all the minutes we had been giving Crabbe.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Except that it can if the usage of the TPE and the TPE-exclusive portions of the deal can each stand alone.

But they dodn't stand alone in his proposed trade. In his proposed trade, we are sending the $12.9 million TPE to NYK, but only getting $4.3 million in returning salary from the Knicks.

BNM

 

[B-Roy]

I can't imagine this is the only domino to fall. They're trying to improve the roster and I don't think Dame/CJ would be pleased if we dumped Crabbe for nothing.

I think maybe we have been putting pressure on Houston to do Ariza/Gordon/filler for Harkless/pick maybe?

If we're losing Crabbe and Harkless and gaining Ariza/Gordon, that gives us a couple of vets who will help us in the playoffs. Start Ariza in place of Harkless and give Gordon all the minutes we had been giving Crabbe.

Are we really that much better replacing Crabbe/Hark with Ariza/Gordon? Me thinks....probably not.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

But what if they can't GET Harkless? Are they going to hold onto Melo and not get anything in return? Seems like getting two HOU draft picks is better than nothing. Neither NYK nor HOU are in the driver's seat on this.

But fine, assuming we give up Harkless, then it should look like this (with Meyers/Vonleh still standing in for the TPE):
View attachment 15369

The reason to send out Harkless would be, in my mind, to...
1) get Gordon
+
2) get Ariza
+
3) rid ourselves to $3.5 mil to get us under the LT.

If we can do that, then yes, but I also want Ariza in your trade scenario, and the Knicks don't want him.

 

[Natebishop3]

Are we really that much better replacing Crabbe/Hark with Ariza/Gordon? Me thinks....probably not.

I think Ariza/Gordon are more consistent than Harkless/Crabbe. Hell, Gordon just won 6th man of the year. What was our problem last year (well, one of our problems...)? Our production off the bench was inconsistent as hell. I think Gordon would help with that immensely (if he stays healthy.)

 

[blue9]

But they dodn't stand alone in his proposed trade. In his proposed trade, we are sending the $12.9 million TPE to NYK, but only getting $4.3 million in returning salary from the Knicks.

BNM

Ah. In my original trade I just had Gordon coming here, and used Meyers/Vonleh to simulate the TPE that would go to HOU...but I couldn't have M/V's salary going to HOU. Then in my haste to respond to the Harkless issue, I added NYK players coming back without taking into account the TPE issue.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

This move seems to me to be leading up to another move....we got cap relief and a roster spot and hopefully replace Crabbe with a 2 way player

#1, i dont give a shit about luxury tax relief. If PA gave a shit about that then he should have never signed those contracts in the first place. We just essentially traded 20 million dollars against our salary cap for absolutely nothing.
#2, we can cut pat and get a roster spot. a roster spot is meaningless in this example.
#3, "hopefully" doesnt really work out that often around here.

whatever.

 

[blue9]

The reason to send out Harkless would be, in my mind, to...
1) get Gordon
+
2) get Ariza
+
3) rid ourselves to $3.5 mil to get us under the LT.

If we can do that, then yes, but I also want Ariza in your trade scenario, and the Knicks don't want him.

I'd rather just take Gordon for the TPE and keep Harkless. I don't see any point in trading Harkless for Ariza - that would be a bad move.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

But they dodn't stand alone in his proposed trade. In his proposed trade, we are sending the $12.9 million TPE to NYK, but only getting $4.3 million in returning salary from the Knicks.

BNM

You should re-read the example Coon gives in his FAQ regarding non-simultaneous trades.

http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q87

Here is a more complicated example of a legal non-simultaneous trade: Team A is a taxpaying team with a $4 million trade exception from a previous trade, and a $10 million player it currently wants to trade. Team B is a taxpaying team with three players making $4 million, $5 million and $7 million, and these two teams want to complete a three-for-one trade with these four players. This trade is legal -- the $5 million and $7 million players together make less than the 125% plus $100,000 allowed for the $10 million player ($12.6 million), and the $4 million player fits within the $4 million trade exception. So the $4 million player actually completes the previous, non-simultaneous trade, and Team A is left trading its $10 million player for Team B's $5 million and $7 million players in a separate, simultaneous trade. From Team B's perspective there is also a simultaneous and a non-simultaneous trade -- it aggregates its $4 million and $5 million players to acquire Team A's $10 million player in a simultaneous trade, and it sends the $7 million player to Team A for "nothing" in a separate non-simultaneous trade, thereby receiving a $7 million trade exception.

My prior post didn't explain it well, but basically, as long as we're not aggregating the TPE with other salaries to match incoming salaries for us, we're good, even if the other teams aren't necessarily seeing it the same way on their side. So, EG can fit into our TPE, even if Houston has to aggregate EG's salary with others in order to match Melo's incoming. In blue9's trade, the other incoming players would be matched against Harkless, so from our perspective, everything would work.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Are we really that much better replacing Crabbe/Hark with Ariza/Gordon? Me thinks....probably not.

1) yes
2) if we also get under the tax level at the same time, it'll be incredible.

 

[Boob-No-More]

We'd just do the TPE for Gordon first, and then the rest of the trade would go through as a separate deal.

That doesn't work either. The Rockets have already use their non-tax payer MLE to sign P.J. Tucker. So, they can't go over the luxury tax apron at any point before the end of the 2017-18 season. In addition the Gordon/TPE and Ariza to NYK deals, they'd need to send out another $4.15 million to clear the space to get Carmelo.

BNM

 

[Minstrel]

Are we really that much better replacing Crabbe/Hark with Ariza/Gordon? Me thinks....probably not.

I think so. At least in the present, Ariza is probably about equal to Harkless. Gordon is much better than Crabbe, as far as I'm concerned, mostly because he's aggressive and is capable of shooting and making contested threes. I don't think we jump up to the championship tier, if that's what you mean, but I think Portland is significantly better

 

[Natebishop3]

I like Harkless, but I question his motivation sometimes, and I think he lacks drive. He has a ton of talent though.

If we can dump Crabbe, Harkless, Leonard, and Davis and get back a mixture of veterans who have been there before and can help us win.... I like our chances.

 

[Natebishop3]

Dame/Turner
CJ/Gordon
Ariza/Aminu
Vonleh/Swanigan
Nurk/Collins

That's an improved team.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Dame/Turner
CJ/Gordon
Ariza/Aminu
Vonleh/Swanigan
Nurk/Collins

That's an improved team.

Agreed. Better defense and more reliable scoring off the bench.

BNM

 

[dviss1]

Calm down. Crabbe is the subject of this thread. Talking about him in this thread is both fair and expected. If we do get Gordon, it will be to replace Crabbe's minutes and his role.

And yes, Gordon is better. It's not just my Crabbe "hatred" that says so. Gordon won Sixth Man of the Year. Crabbe didn't get a single vote.

Gordon was healthy last season and is healthy now. Why would't I mention his most recent performance. It is the most relevant. It's not like I went back three or four years to find a season when he played well.

BNM

There's also the fact that you weren't arguing that Gordon wasn't injury prone.

 

[Pinwheel1]

This move seems to me to be leading up to another move....we got cap relief and a roster spot and hopefully replace Crabbe with a 2 way player

Could be, but to me Crabbe to Brooklyn seemed to be the backup plan since the season ended if they could not use him in a bigger trade. Now that those options have passed, Neil can't wait any longer. I am sure we will add someone, but I am not holding my breath on any significant addition.

As discussed for months, either Crabbe or ET had to go and as many suggested, Crabbe is easier to replace. I was hoping Layman to step up and grab that 3 &D spot off the bench, but I am not so hopeful anymore.

 

[blue9]

That doesn't work either. The Rockets have already use their non-tax payer MLE to sign P.J. Tucker. So, they can't go over the luxury tax apron at any point before the end of the 2017-18 season. In addition the Gordon/TPE and Ariza to NYK deals, they'd need to send out another $4.15 million to clear the space to get Carmelo.

BNM

Well I don't know anything about those rules. Trade Machine says it works, so I'm going with it.

 

[BonesJones]

I'm hoping that we're trading out Harkless, Davis, Leonard, and a pick for Melo while using the TPE to take on Courtney Lee.

I'm just worried we won't get better and won't increase future flexibility (ala, take on Anderson). I'm worried that we won't replace Crabbe with someone adequate or someone that doesn't fit (We need a shooter next to ET).

 

[AquaXI]

Addtion by subtraction. Now let's develop our rookies and give Napier a prominent backup role. Hoping Connaughton becomes a shooting prodigy for us. Wishful thinking? Perhaps but hey we can dream!

 

[riverman]

#1, i dont give a shit about luxury tax relief. If PA gave a shit about that then he should have never signed those contracts in the first place. We just essentially traded 20 million dollars against our salary cap for absolutely nothing.
#2, we can cut pat and get a roster spot. a roster spot is meaningless in this example.
#3, "hopefully" doesnt really work out that often around here.

whatever.

wow....I personally am happy to shed Crabbe's contract and minutes....as to Paul Allen's money...I'm glad he's got a lot ...a roster spot is not meaningless if it leads to more productive minutes and better defense ....hopefully worked out pretty well trading Mason for a talented rookie and Nurk....after all this summer with no real movement, how can you not feel good about moving Crabbe's contract and lethargic motor?

 

[BBert]

I've not seen him as a starting SG for 20+ games in a row. I'll reserve my judgment until then.

He's certainly good enough to start, even if for BKN. He's wanted by other teams, at least BKN.

We lost a 30 MPG player who was one of the elite 3pt shooters in the NBA last season. There's no way this can be seen as a win for us on the court.

What if we use the exception on Gordon (or other shooter)? In effect trading Crabbe for Gordon (or other shooter). Still not a win?

 

[3RA1N1AC]

after all this summer with no real movement, how can you not feel good about moving Crabbe's contract and lethargic motor?

its all good man. we just got worse though, no bones about it.

will we get better? hopefully!

 

[chzbrgr]

What if we use the exception on Gordon (or other shooter)? In effect trading Crabbe for Gordon (or other shooter). Still not a win?

Not for Denny, he needs an allstar back for fringe allstar crabbe. SMH

 

[riverman]

I think our next move will come when Irving decides where he wants to go..

 

[3RA1N1AC]

What if we use the exception on Gordon (or other shooter)? In effect trading Crabbe for Gordon (or other shooter). Still not a win?

it seems like this is a qualifier for everyone. If we get gordon straight up for the TPE then this trade is a win. If not, is it a loss?

 

[BBert]

Oh Lordy, you are the LAST person on this forum that gets to say "I told you so" on this one. You were touting how matching Crabbe was good because we "retained an asset". And what did we get in return? 2.7 mil in dead space for the next 7 years.

We basically had to bribe Brooklyn to take him, whereas we'd be in a better position if we had not matched in the first place.

Giving Crabbe one more year to prove himself, then getting a $13 Million trade exception for him is worse than losing Crabbe for nothing?