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Because of the local ties, Jordan might have the edge, but who do you prefer between Motley and Bell?
 
BonesJones said:
If that's the only problems with him and he falls to the 2nd then you have to go and get him.

You can teach a mindset and push someone to be better, but you can't teach 6'11, agile, athletic, with touch.
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If that were the case, Meyers might be an all star.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Bell needs to be a Blazer
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Okay, but why vs Motley?

Player.......Ht.....Wt....Wing......Pts....Reb...Ast...Blk....FG%...FT%
Bell..........6'9"...230...6'11".......11.0...8.7.....1.8....2.3... .661... .694
Motley.....6'9"...235...7'3 1/2"...17.2...9.9....2.2....1.1.... .537... .702

Motley has a much better wingspan although Bell blocks more shots. I don't think Bell is as dominant in the NBA though. Motley is much more of a scorer and slightly better in rebounds and assists while Bell shoots a higher percentage but without as much range.
 
dviss1 said:
Left hand, In-N-Out crossover to the Baseline spin move, with the right hand finish on the left side....

Ballarinalike...
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His ball control with his left hand pretty impressive overall. The lefty in and out is definitely his go to move right now though.



His left to right crossover is a work in progress. It's smooth, but he'll get lazy with it and it ultimately won't create a lot of separation. Improving his jumper will also help here as defenders won't be able to gap him as much.

But in the end, the game just comes really easy to him and I trust that kind of player to develop more so than kids that are better athletes but started playing competitively during their HS careers and are clearly behind the curve from a basketball instincts standpoint. His defensive tools + handle + passing + mid range scoring acumen are also skills that give him a higher ceiling then more athletic wings like Ferguson and Diallo.

Mitchell is probably the only other non lottery guard that offers a similar kind of ceiling, but his size makes for a tougher roster fit.
 
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Yeah give me Motley over Bell as well.

Guys with Bell's size and offensive skill set are just not valued rotation players in the modern NBA.

He's going to have to play the 5 to have any value and don't think he has much of a chance to hold up size wise at that position.

Motley isn't without his flaws (his foul and TO rate are big issues) but has nice offensive skills and the movement and plus size to play both 4 and 5 in certain lineups.
 
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TBpup said:
Okay, but why vs Motley?

Player.......Ht.....Wt....Wing......Pts....Reb...Ast...Blk....FG%...FT%
Bell..........6'9"...230...6'11".......11.0...8.7.....1.8....2.3... .661... .694
Motley.....6'9"...235...7'3 1/2"...17.2...9.9....2.2....1.1.... .537... .702

Motley has a much better wingspan although Bell blocks more shots. I don't think Bell is as dominant in the NBA though. Motley is much more of a scorer and slightly better in rebounds and assists while Bell shoots a higher percentage but without as much range.
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Why? Same reason I don't like guys from the Cuse. No science, no stats.

Bigs from Baylor have been underwhelming.
 
Mediocre Man said:
Bigs from Baylor have been underwhelming.
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Britney Griner has been excellent so far in her young career.

On a serious note, would you believe that Vinnie Johnson is the NBA career leader in rebounds amongst Baylor alums?
 
They just so happen to share a first name, but Luke Kennard is the Luke Babbitt of SG prospects except Babbitt was a better run and jump athlete. Had better size/frame for his position as well. Kennard is the better dribbler and passer for his position but I don't think the margin matters much.

Both have that herky jerky style pull up game, but just aren't dynamic enough athletes to translate as any sort of self creation at an NBA level. They basically have to be elite shooters to have any chance of being rotation players.

Some try and compare him to JJ Redick and Marco Belinelli, but JJ was/is much faster and was a higher IQ/more dynamic threat off the ball and on the move with his jumper. And Marco has always been a much more fluid and flexible athlete.
 
JDC said:
Pass.

He's another athletic wing who can't dribble and his shot is just OK. Seems pretty low IQ on the floor too.
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Those are the same knocks as the ones on Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, and Paul George when they came out.

He shot 39% from 3pt, and can okay defense. He's a 3-And-D SF already. He doesn't need to be handling the ball and making tough decisions, just needs to be able to hit spot up 3s, attack closeouts, and move well off the ball.
 
BonesJones said:
Those are the same knocks as the ones on Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, and Paul George when they came out.

He shot 39% from 3pt, and can okay defense. He's a 3-And-D SF already. He doesn't need to be handling the ball and making tough decisions, just needs to be able to hit spot up 3s, attack closeouts, and move well off the ball.
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i honestly would be so happy if we get him or semi at 26. but if we had to choose, which you would you rather have?
 
damianlillard said:
i honestly would be so happy if we get him or semi at 26. but if we had to choose, which you would you rather have?
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Can't pick one over the other. Semi's a little better shooter, Robinson's a little better defender.
 
TBpup said:
I like Semi's attacks of the basket like he wants to tear down the rim.
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yeah i think i would have to go with semi because of that reason. that kid is a freak, something we don't have on this team and he can be a good passer. i can see becoming more like jae crowder
 
BonesJones said:
Those are the same knocks as the ones on Jimmy Butler, Khris Middleton, and Paul George when they came out.

He shot 39% from 3pt, and can okay defense. He's a 3-And-D SF already. He doesn't need to be handling the ball and making tough decisions, just needs to be able to hit spot up 3s, attack closeouts, and move well off the ball.
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Then you must have not watched those guys play much in college. All three showed advanced shot making, handles and playmaking that suggested they could handle a high usage offensive role in the NBA.

I'm fine with you thinking he can be a limited 3 and D player, but he hasn't shown the requisite skills to be anything more than that.
 
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TBpup said:
I've asked him repeatedly. He got tired of clowns telling him he didn't know what he was talking about so just does it on his own now. He RAVED about Gobert and Giannis when no one even knew who they were. He took a lot of flak for it at the time and just said "screw it". Don't blame him.
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Snowflake
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Kidding
 
JDC said:
Then you must have not watched those guys play much in college. All three showed advanced shot making, handles and playmaking that suggested they could handle a high usage offensive role in the NBA.

I'm fine with you thinking he can be a limited 3 and D player, but he hasn't shown the requisite skills to be anything more than that.
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I see a good NBA role player with a high floor. I'd love to have a 3-and-D player on the Blazers. We have none. Big 3-And-D SFs are always drafted too low. Robinson will be another.
 
My Big Board as of 5/6/2017:
-------------------------------
1: Markelle Fultz
2: Josh Jackson
3: Jayson Tatum
4: Dennis Smith Jr.
5: De'Aaron Fox
6: Lonzo Ball
7: Jonathan Isaac
8: Malik Monk
9: Frank Ntilikina
10: Zach Collins
-------------------------------
11: Lauri Markkanen
12: Justin Patton
13: OG Anunoby
14: Jarrett Allen
15: Justin Jackson
16: Juwan Evans
17: Terrence Ferguson
18: Harry Giles
19: D.J. Wilson
20: Devin Robinson
-------------------------------
21: Ike Anigbogu
22: Donovan Mitchell
23: Tyler Lydon
24: Caleb Swanigan
25: Jonathan Motley
26: John Collins
27: Semi Ojeleye
28: Isaiah Hartenstein
29: Jonathan Jeanne
30: T.J. Leaf
-------------------------------
*Noteable Players Outside Top 30*
Ivan Rabb, Luke Kennard, Bam Adebeyo, Rodions Kurucs
 
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BonesJones said:
I see a good NBA role player with a high floor. I'd love to have a 3-and-D player on the Blazers. We have none. Big 3-And-D SFs are always drafted too low. Robinson will be another.
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Big 3 and D players with no ball skills return borderline top 20 value if they hit their ceiling so I think early 2nd is just fine for him.

Stronger Wesley Johnson is his best case to me and I just can't get excited about that.
 
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JDC said:
Big 3 and D players with no ball skills return borderline top 20 value if they hit their ceiling so I think early 2nd is just fine for him.

Stronger Wesley Johnson is his best case to me and I just can't get excited about that.
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He doesn't need to be a creator. A 13, 14ppg player with solid (38%+) 3pt shooting, good defense, and athleticism is a top 15 level talent in almost any draft.

His ceiling is a better shooting, better defending Harkless. He will improve his ball skills to the point where he'll comfortably attack close-outs. He's a SF, he doesn't need to be up top doing a bunch of CJ McCollum-like hanging crossovers trying to break his man down. He doesn't need to be creating 5 assists a game.

If he learned how to do both, he'd be an all-star. That's what happened with Kawhi Leonard.

"Ball skills" is really the only knock on him, but it shouldn't be a big factor. Why? Because too many people look at a prospect as a whole player without thinking about what his NBA role will be. It's stuff like "limited upside because of limited ball skills" that cause good players to drop. Two great examples of this is Wesley Matthews and Malcolm Brogdon. He's a good rebounder, good defender, good shooter, athletic, has great length (6'8 with a 7'0 wingspan)... Those translate easily into a starting level SF. All of those are bigger factor than his ball skills, especially if he finds the right team, who has two guards that can create and need floor spacing and defense (basically, Portland).

It's funny that you knock Robinson for his ball skills, but then strongly support Kadeem Allen. Kadeem Allen needs ball skills more than Robinson, as he's a 6'3 guard, not a 6'8 SF. Meanwhile Allen is over two years older than Robinson.
 
BonesJones said:
He doesn't need to be a creator. A 13, 14ppg player with solid (38%+) 3pt shooting, good defense, and athleticism is a top 15 level talent in almost any draft.

His ceiling is a better shooting, better defending Harkless. He will improve his ball skills to the point where he'll comfortably attack close-outs. He's a SF, he doesn't need to be up top doing a bunch of CJ McCollum-like hanging crossovers trying to break his man down. He doesn't need to be creating 5 assists a game.

If he learned how to do both, he'd be an all-star. That's what happened with Kawhi Leonard.

"Ball skills" is really the only knock on him, but it shouldn't be a big factor. Why? Because too many people look at a prospect as a whole player without thinking about what his NBA role will be. It's stuff like "limited upside because of limited ball skills" that cause good players to drop. Two great examples of this is Wesley Matthews and Malcolm Brogdon. He's a good rebounder, good defender, good shooter, athletic, has great length (6'8 with a 7'0 wingspan)... Those translate easily into a starting level SF. All of those are bigger factor than his ball skills, especially if he finds the right team, who has two guards that can create and need floor spacing and defense (basically, Portland).

It's funny that you knock Robinson for his ball skills, but then strongly support Kadeem Allen. Kadeem Allen needs ball skills more than Robinson, as he's a 6'3 guard, not a 6'8 SF. Meanwhile Allen is over two years older than Robinson.
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Malcolm Brogdon could dribble and make a play at the college level. It's why we heard whispers before the draft that he had PG potential. The questions surrounding him were more about how his size, shooting and athleticism would translate at the NBA level. And Wesley Matthews is such a unique case that I think trying to use him to justify another player's chances of NBA success is doing nothing for your argument.

I'm not even going to get into Kadeem Allen. They are completely different players so I don't think comparing their ball skills is doing anything constructive from a prospect evaluation standpoint, but I think there is enough evidence out there to support that he'll be a valuable playmaker in some capacity. I also don't think they are in the same stratosphere defensively, both from a tools and IQ standpoint and I don't think that changes suddenly once Devin turns 24.

But getting back to the main point, I clearly see what Devin Robinson's role will be in the NBA and it's just a matter of whether his skills are at the level they'll need to be to fulfill it. I just think we disagree on the idea that there is some sort of star potential hiding in his game. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere is his tape or statistical profile that supports that idea, which wasn't the case for any of the guys you've brought up to support your argument, including Kawhi Leonard.
 
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JDC said:
Malcolm Brogdon could dribble and make a play at the college level. It's why we heard whispers before the draft that he had PG potential. The questions surrounding him were more about how his size, shooting and athleticism would translate at the NBA level. And Wesley Matthews is such a unique case that I think trying to use him to justify another player's chances of NBA success is doing nothing for your argument.

I'm not even going to get into Kadeem Allen. They are completely different players so I don't think comparing their ball skills is doing anything constructive from a prospect evaluation standpoint, but I think there is enough evidence out there to support that he'll be a valuable playmaker in some capacity. I also don't think they are in the same stratosphere defensively, both from a tools and IQ standpoint and I don't think that changes suddenly once Devin turns 24.

But getting back to the main point, I clearly see what Devin Robinson's role will be in the NBA and it's just a matter of whether his skills are at the level they'll need to be to fulfill it. I just think we disagree on the idea that there is some sort of star potential hiding in his game. There is absolutely no evidence anywhere is his tape or statistical profile that supports that idea, which wasn't the case for any of the guys you've brought up to support your argument, including Kawhi Leonard.
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I don't think there's star potential hiding in his game. I think his ceiling is a 15ppg scorer on near 40% 3pt shooting with very good defense. Basically, what we all hope Crabbe could become.

On Brogdon, his biggest question mark was his ability to create on an NBA level.

I don't care about comparing individual players, because you're just stating that every under-drafted 3-And-D guy add ball skills coming out of college (which isn't the case).

All I'm saying is big SGs and SFs who can play defense or shoot are typically under-drafted, especially if they can do both.

Middleton, Leonard, George, Butler, Antetokounmpo, Carroll, Crowder, Brogdon, Matthews, Dray. Green, Danny Green, Bazemore, Crabbe... That's just off the top of my head.

Every one of those players (except for George, 10th), went 15th or lower.

Robinson is deserving of a top 20 pick, but his range will be 30-40. Do I want to pick him at 15 or 20? No, because I think we could trade down and get an early 2nd and still pick him.
 
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