Merged: What happens with Gomes?

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Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
Further, Babbitt cost us a rotation player.
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Our worst rotation player, who shot terribly in the playoffs against a team that begs you to shoot open shots.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
It's not very complicated.

Babbitt is only five months younger than Beasley, who has a couple of NBA seasons under his belt. If you don't see a 21 year-old rookie as having a lower ceiling than he would if he were 19... I don't know what to tell you.
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Which 21 year old and 19 year old are we talking about? Every single instance would be different. I know for sure the 18 year old working at UPS has a much lower ceiling than a 23 year old 5th year Sr. from Xavier.

If you can't see that every single player is different and you should never make a choice based on averages, I don't know what to tell you.

Especially if one of those 21 year olds is an alcoholic with legal issues.

I really dont have a major issue with what you've said. I just found it a little "lulz"
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

I wouldn't say he's an "afterthought", I think that the partial guarantee was a target so that we had a week to do the stuff that WAS and OKC have been doing: giving teams a better shot at LBJ/Wade in exchange for today's talent. I think that they could've traded with a lot of teams to get picks b/w 11 and 18 if they wanted Babbitt, but there are only a few non-guaranteed contracts (DAL still has a big one in Dampier) and Gomes is one of them. MIN happened to have a mid-round pick where they could get one of our draft targets and a non-guaranteed contract to go with their need for a SF.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

BGrantFan said:
There was no reason to trade Martell if we planned on keeping Gomes. The Blazers obviously thought that Babbitt was a better SF option off of the bench than Webs. Gomes is an afterthought. I'm guessing the Blazers liked his contract for either cost savings or as a part of a trade.
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You might be right, but I'm not sure that I follow your logic at the beginning of your post.

EVEN IF you think Gomes and Webster are similar/the same, doesn't it make sense that we'd prefer to keep the same player and add a rookie prospect, too?

Ed O.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

BrianFromWA said:
Decent point, and I'd agree with you if it was in the middle of the range of a team full of high Drtgs. But if Jefferson and Love can manage 107's and 109's, what's Gomes doing at 113? Team Drtg was 111. Only Jonny Flynn and Wayne Ellington had worse ones, though there were a lot of bad ones.
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I see 108 and 109 here - http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/MIN/2010.html - but, again, he is a backup player, you would expect the starter to be better than the backups...

Maybe he just did not play enough with their best defenders?

Look, I do not think that he is very likely to take minutes from Nic Batum based on his defensive prowess, but given the shitty teams he played on - I would not go out of my way to label him as a defensive bust - without actually seeing him. All I am saying is that his DRTG is not a reliable number in this case, imho.

82Games.com thinks that per possession they actually gave up less points when he was on the court than when he was off...

http://www.82games.com/0910/09MIN10.HTM#onoff

They gave up 112.9 points per 100 possessions without him, but only 112 with him...
 
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Re: What happens with Gomes?

OddEnormous said:
Which 21 year old and 19 year old are we talking about? Every single instance would be different. I know for sure the 18 year old working at UPS has a much lower ceiling than a 23 year old 5th year Sr. from Xavier.

If you can't see that every single player is different and you should never make a choice based on averages, I don't know what to tell you.

Especially if one of those 21 year olds is an alcoholic with legal issues.

I really dont have a major issue with what you've said. I just found it a little "lulz"
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You can use the same thing about height: a 6' scholarship player from Oregon State is probably a better player than a 6'5" rec league guy.

Does that mean height is irrelevant?

Ed O.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

You're right that he's not conclusively a defensive bust, and I wouldn't characterize him as such. But I'm not sure that he can conclusively be called a "top notch backup" as was asserted above, especially while, in the same sentence, labeling Beasley a "big fail". That's all I was trying to say.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
You might be right, but I'm not sure that I follow your logic at the beginning of your post.

EVEN IF you think Gomes and Webster are similar/the same, doesn't it make sense that we'd prefer to keep the same player and add a rookie prospect, too?

Ed O.
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The point was that the team decided that Webster was unnecessary. The same applies to Gomes, IMO. This frees up more time for Batum, and Babbitt is going to get some minutes, which I think he should receive given what he supposedly brings to the table. Plus, he's a very, very good rebounder.

EDIT - and Brian, I meant an afterthought in terms of on-court value to the Blazers. I don't see the point in dissecting Gomes' game, since I don't think he'll ever be on the court for the Blazers.
 
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Re: What happens with Gomes?

BGrantFan said:
The point was that the team decided that Webster was unnecessary. The same applies to Gomes, IMO. This frees up more time for Batum, and Babbitt is going to get some minutes, which I think he should receive given what he supposedly brings to the table. Plus, he's a very, very good rebounder.
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I don't think that you can say they decided Webster was unnecessary. They were willing to move him for superior value, which turned out to be Babbitt and Gomes.

I will trade you my $10 bill for your $20, but not because I have determined the $10 is worthless.

Ed O.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
You can use the same thing about height: a 6' scholarship player from Oregon State is probably a better player than a 6'5" rec league guy.

Does that mean height is irrelevant?

Ed O.
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I'm not the one discounting a player based on one attribute.
 
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Re: What happens with Gomes?

BrianFromWA said:
You're right that he's not conclusively a defensive bust, and I wouldn't characterize him as such. But I'm not sure that he can conclusively be called a "top notch backup" as was asserted above, especially while, in the same sentence, labeling Beasley a "big fail". That's all I was trying to say.
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I absolutely agree on this point. If you can swap Gomes for Beasley - you do it and never look back.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

OddEnormous said:
I'm not the one discounting anyone based on one attribute.
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So you don't discount by any one attribute, which means you're saying any one attribute is irrelevant. Zero value.

The sum of all attributes, then, is zero.

How do you compare prospects and players?

Ed O.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

I think he was talking about Love/Jefferson. I was mis-remembering the thread we had earlier about LMA vs. Love and Jefferson, and I was going purely off of memory for the 107/109. Al is 108, Love 109, not the 107/109 I asserted.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
I don't think that you can say they decided Webster was unnecessary. They were willing to move him for superior value, which turned out to be Babbitt and Gomes.

I will trade you my $10 bill for your $20, but not because I have determined the $10 is worthless.

Ed O.
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Semantics, but your analogy does show that the Blazers wanted to upgrade that position. Hence, they didn't need Webster anymore.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
So you don't discount by any one attribute, which means you're saying any one attribute is irrelevant. Zero value.
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No I'm not and you know that you boring, boring dick.

If a guy is missing a leg I would deffo pass on him. Especially if he's 21.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

OddEnormous said:
No I'm not and you know that you boring, boring dick.

If a guy is missing a leg I would deffo pass on him. Especially if he's 21.
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You don't need to make personal attacks or use extreme facts. Either answer or don't. Either way is cool.

I noted that Babbitt is a 21 year-old sophomore as part of a larger post about him being a good pick. You seem to have a problem with understanding why age of a player is at all related to the upside of that player.

You've established that age doesn't matter and that height doesn't matter. I'm asking you what DOES matter.

Ed O.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
You don't need to make personal attacks or use extreme facts. Either answer or don't. Either way is cool.

I noted that Babbitt is a 21 year-old sophomore as part of a larger post about him being a good pick. You seem to have a problem with understanding why age of a player is at all related to the upside of that player.

You've established that age doesn't matter and that height doesn't matter. I'm asking you what DOES matter.

Ed O.
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"Intangibles" "immeasurables" and "fuzzy feelings" Find a stat for that you "boring, boring dick" :wink:
 
Question on Beasley ???

I haven't watched Beasley enough to know his game well. So, I was wondering. Isn't this guy a low post player ? If I remember correctly the Blazers need a low post threat. Isn't this what Barkley always talks about as " Portland needs a low post big man" " Because they are nothing but a jump shooting team " ?


In the Whitsitt era I think this deal would have already been done. I think this is a no brainer. You can cut him loose after one year ? Are you crazy ?

I think the Blazers have enough " good guys" that can absorb a questionable talent, kid.

Is this guy Zach Randolph lite ? Just curious...

Thanks
 
Re: Question on Beasley ???

Dufferduck said:
I haven't watched Beasley enough to know his game well. So, I was wondering. Isn't this guy a low post player ? If I remember correctly the Blazers need a low post threat. Isn't this what Barkley always talks about as " Portland needs a low post big man" " Because they are nothing but a jump shooting team " ?


In the Whitsitt era I think this deal would have already been done. I think this is a no brainer. You can cut him loose after one year ? Are you crazy ?

I think the Blazers have enough " good guys" that can absorb a questionable talent, kid.

Is this guy Zach Randolph lite ? Just curious...

Thanks
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Beasley is a face up 4 ... in fact he might actually be more akin to the non defending version of Josh Smith from the Hawks.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

I think he'd be an asset that NOH would like as part of the package. He has a cheap buy out and the rest of his contract comes off the cap.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

BGrantFan said:
Our worst rotation player, who shot terribly in the playoffs against a team that begs you to shoot open shots.
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If I didn't know any better, I'd say you would be talking about Rudy...
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Gomes is a good team defender. He will play well within a defensive scheme and won't make mistakes. He's a little too slow to guard 3's and a little too small to guard 4's, so it helps to have a shot blocker behind him. Fortunately, Portland has 3 of those. He is always hustling, too, you will never see him make a lazy play. And he always plays smart/fundamentally sound.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Ed O said:
You don't need to make personal attacks or use extreme facts. Either answer or don't. Either way is cool.

I noted that Babbitt is a 21 year-old sophomore as part of a larger post about him being a good pick. You seem to have a problem with understanding why age of a player is at all related to the upside of that player.

You've established that age doesn't matter and that height doesn't matter. I'm asking you what DOES matter.

Ed O.
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Well don't play stupid for the sake of it when you clearly knew the point I was making. Actually, maybe I'm giving you too much credit.

You can't say what matters when it comes to a single player.

If a guy with one leg is as good as John Stockton you take him one leg or not. You don't pass on him because nobody has ever made it on only one leg.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

OddEnormous said:
If a guy with one leg is as good as John Stockton you take him one leg or not. You don't pass on him because nobody has ever made it on only one leg.
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But Babbitt is not that great right now. If he never improves at all, he won't be worth his draft position. So part of evaluating him is evaluating how much he will improve...and his age is related to how much he'll improve. A 22 year old is more likely to improve than a 35 year old, obviously. An 18 year old is more likely to improve than a 21 year old. Obviously, any individual can be an exception...but few people, if anyone, know who will be exceptions. When it comes to a prospect, age is an important factor in gauging how much better he might become.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

Minstrel said:
But Babbitt is not that great right now. If he never improves at all, he won't be worth his draft position. So part of evaluating him is evaluating how much he will improve...and his age is related to how much he'll improve. A 22 year old is more likely to improve than a 35 year old, obviously. An 18 year old is more likely to improve than a 21 year old. Obviously, any individual can be an exception...but few people, if anyone, know who will be exceptions. When it comes to a prospect, age is an important factor in gauging how much better he might become.
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How can you even make that claim without watching him play for the Blazers.? As of right now, technically, not a single player drafted yesterday is worth their draft position.

How much did Martell Webster improve from the age of 18? Not enough for the Blazers, obviously. Deron Williams was 21 years old when he was drafted. Is that why the Blazers passed on Williams? Because Martell had 3 years to get better than Williams at that stage?
 
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Re: What happens with Gomes?

I'm not saying I'm on Ed's side on this, but it's a pretty defined NBA bias, if you want to call it that. I mean, look at the coverage of Wesley Johnson. Almost everyone will agree that he had a good-to-great year at Syracuse, he can shoot, rebound, defend, and is really athletic. Almost every single writeup on his "negatives" includes "almost 23 years old"...and b/c of that he's projected as a "second- or third-option", rather than a guy like Turner, who the same people project will be Brandon Roy. I understand a bit WHY they do it, but you can't deny that the bias is there. And it just seems as if Ed. has that, too.
 
Re: What happens with Gomes?

BrianFromWA said:
I'm not saying I'm on Ed's side on this, but it's a pretty defined NBA bias, if you want to call it that. I mean, look at the coverage of Wesley Johnson. Almost everyone will agree that he had a good-to-great year at Syracuse, he can shoot, rebound, defend, and is really athletic. Almost every single writeup on his "negatives" includes "almost 23 years old"...and b/c of that he's projected as a "second- or third-option", rather than a guy like Turner, who the same people project will be Brandon Roy. I understand a bit WHY they do it, but you can't deny that the bias is there. And it just seems as if Ed. has that, too.
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21 = 23???

Thank God we picked Webster over then 21 year-old Deron Williams! But hell, we had a 19 year-old Telfair at the time, so why in the world draft the older player?
 
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