Merged: What happens with Gomes?

[Minstrel]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

You can say that about every player drafted in front of him, and many after.

How can you even make that claim without watching him play for the Blazers.? As of right now, technically, not a single player drafted yesterday is worth their draft position.

I didn't say Babbitt was unique in that respect. In fact, all of these prospects will need to improve to justify their draft slots. And my point is that when it comes to improvement, age is a major factor in their potential for improvement. That's why age matters a great deal. Projectablity is a function of both currently demonstrated ability and age.

How much did Martell Webster improve from the age of 18? Not enough for the Blazers, obviously. Deron Williams was 21 years old when he was drafted. Is that why the Blazers passed on Williams? Because Martell had 3 years to get better than Williams at that stage?

You're misunderstanding the point. The point is not that age is all that matters. It's that age matters. So does, as I said, currently demonstrated ability. Deron Williams was a far better player at the time of the draft than Webster was. That mattered also. Patterson/Nash implicitly gambled that Webster would catch and surpass Williams at similar ages...and they lost. That hardly means age is irrelevant...just that talent matters also. Both are important factors.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I didn't say Babbitt was unique in that respect. In fact, all of these prospects will need to improve to justify their draft slots. And my point is that when it comes to improvement, age is a major factor in their potential for improvement. That's why age matters a great deal. Projectablity is a function of both currently demonstrated ability and age.



You're misunderstanding the point. The point is not that age is all that matters. It's that age matters. So does, as I said, currently demonstrated ability. Deron Williams was a far better player at the time of the draft than Webster was. That mattered also. Patterson/Nash implicitly gambled that Webster would catch and surpass Williams at similar ages...and they lost. That hardly means age is irrelevant...just that talent matters also. Both are important factors.

If a guy is 25, then I can see it. But Babbit turned 21 last Sunday, and will be 21 his entire rookie season. He was 4 days away from being a 20 year-old. Would that make any difference?

 

[alex42083]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Didn't you just describe Dante Cunningham?

Good point. Though like has been said, Gomes has more range and can hit the 3. I just like Gomes' game, and don't view him as just a throw-in to the deal. I hope he gets a chance in training camp.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I didn't say Babbitt was unique in that respect.

You're kind of going all over the place with this. We can only respond to what you write. I have no idea what you're going to write next.

You singled him out and said if he didn't improve the pick is a bad one to prove the age factor was important. That has nowt to do with his age.

The younger players in front of him might not improve either.

I do know one thing for sure though, Michael Beasley is an alcoholic with legal trouble.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

If a guy is 25, then I can see it. But Babbit turned 21 last Sunday, and will be 21 his entire rookie season. He was 4 days away from being a 20 year-old. Would that make any difference?

How many legs does he have?

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Another thing, and it's about Babbitt being a "small college" player. He received an offer from Ohio State, but turned it down to stay home. He's not some under-the-radar find like Gordon Hayward, who I think will struggle much more than Babbitt.

I wonder if Babbitt would have been a one-and-done had he gone to tOSU?

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

How many legs does he have?

He's 6'9" in shoes, but you must mentally subtract an inch for each year over 18, 6" of vertical, and add on one heap of "slow".

Great job KP. You just drafted an undersized, unathletic, slow white guy to play back-up small forward. Should have drafted him when he was 18!

 

[Blazinaway]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

He's 6'9" in shoes, but you must mentally subtract an inch for each year over 18, 6" of vertical, and add on one heap of "slow".

Great job KP. You just drafted an undersized, unathletic, slow white guy to play back-up small forward. Should have drafted him when he was 18!

did you see his combine numbers? That does not seem "unathletic" to me

 

[Idog1976]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I'm not the one discounting a player based on one attribute.

Yeah you are, you are blaming Beasley on one thing character flaw. One that with a young guy can be fixed if he is placed in a structured environment. Often kids like that WANT someone like Sarge to straighten them out. Beasley isn't 52 drinking three sixers of Highlife every night when he gets home from work, he's a kid. A millionaire but he's still a kid, likely one that always wanted some structure in his life.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

did you see his combine numbers? That does not seem "unathletic" to me

Read my post again, but this time in green font.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Yeah you are, you are blaming Beasley on one thing character flaw.

Sorry not interested in my team being someone's sponsor. all he needs structure? Based on what? He might even get worse.

Nothing says structure like an NBA road trip.

If someone was 27 in the draft I'd see the original point. 20 year old or 21 year old is not a reason to not draft someone if they are better than the 20 year olds around them.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Sorry not interested in my team being someone's sponsor. He needs structure? Nothing says structure like an NBA road trip.

If someone was 27 in the draft I'd see the original point. 20 year old or 21 year old is not a reason to not draft someone if they are better than the 20 year olds around them.

Even moreso when the 21 year-old turned 21 just 4 days before the draft.

 

[OddEnormous]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

He's 6'9" in shoes, but you must mentally subtract an inch for each year over 18, 6" of vertical, and add on one heap of "slow".

Great job KP. You just drafted an undersized, unathletic, slow white guy to play back-up small forward. Should have drafted him when he was 18!

It's just a shame we can't start drafting 6th graders. (More up side)

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Am I right in saying that
(a) Gomes has to be traded (or waived) before June 30, but
(b) he can't be bundled with any other player because he's been traded too recently?

So we can't use him as part of a bundle to get a better-paid, better player?

 

[BrianFromWA]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

additionally, we could (C) just plain keep him. But IMHO his real value is in shedding salary obligations for someone.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

It's just a shame we can't start drafting 6th graders. (More up side)

Evan Turner will be 22 when the season starts. Terrible fucking pick by Philly. Favors is 3 years younger, which means 3 years better.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

You singled him out and said if he didn't improve the pick is a bad one to prove the age factor was important. That has nowt to do with his age.

I "singled him out" because he was the player under discussion. Age being important in projecting a prospect goes for all prospects. The reason I said that if he doesn't improve, the pick is a bad one is to underscore that improvement is a key aspect for a prospect...and age has plenty to do with that. Your point that "if he plays like John Stockton, it doesn't matter if he's missing a leg" is true for an established, prime player...but doesn't apply to any of these prospects, because none of them are currently good enough. They all need to improve and their age is important in projecting that improvement.

The younger players in front of him might not improve either.

They might not. They just have a greater potential to improve due to being younger. That doesn't mean they will all be better players, but how much improvement is left is an important factor, and age bears on that pretty significantly.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I "singled him out" because he was the player under discussion.

I'd say years in organized basketball is more important. Babbitt can't help when he was born and enrolled in school. Realistically, the youngest he ever could have been drafted was after last season, when he turned 20 right before the draft. So, he's one year behind Wall and Favors, but he played with and against all of those guys in AAU summer ball because he was only 1 year ahead of them in school.

 

[Ed O]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Evan Turner will be 22 when the season starts. Terrible fucking pick by Philly. Favors is 3 years younger, which means 3 years better.

If Turner were 19 and the player that he is now he would have been the #1 pick. If Favors were 22 and the player he is now he would not have been drafted in the lottery.

Do you agree with those statements?

If you agree, will you still argue age is not relevant?

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I'd say years in organized basketball is more important. Babbitt can't help when he was born and enrolled in school. Realistically, the youngest he ever could have been drafted was after last season, when he turned 20 right before the draft. So, he's one year behind Wall and Favors, but he played with and against all of those guys in AAU summer ball because he was only 1 year ahead of them in school.

It's not about what he "can help". It matters how he projects. He is a year older and more physically mature than many in the draft, and that gives him an advantage over people that are younger than he is in terms of present production. It also tends to indicate his present production is closer to his ceiling, indicating his NPV is less than a player who is younger but has the same level of production.

Ed O.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I'd say years in organized basketball is more important. Babbitt can't help when he was born and enrolled in school. Realistically, the youngest he ever could have been drafted was after last season, when he turned 20 right before the draft. So, he's one year behind Wall and Favors, but he played with and against all of those guys in AAU summer ball because he was only 1 year ahead of them in school.

I'm not down on Babbitt (and I don't think Ed is)...I was just responding to the idea that it's silly to even factor in age. Babbitt would be an even better prospect if he were just as good but currently only 18. Obviously, that's not something he can control, and I'm fine with what he is at his current age. But all prospects should be evaluated relative to their age (and, I agree, years in organized basketball).

A player who may not currently seem impressive may actually be doing quite well when you consider that they're only 18 and was almost entirely competing against players older than him. A player who's a 23 year old college senior (for whatever reason) should be viewed in context that he was competing pretty much entirely against players younger than him, who were less developed than he was.

Babbitt is at neither extreme, so shouldn't have his performance adjusted particularly extremely when projecting him...but his age should still be a factor in evaluating how he performed and predicting how good an NBA player he'll be in his prime.

 

[Harry's Raincoat]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Back to the topic for a moment......

I predict that Gomes either gets traded before next Wednesday OR will be waived by us. He is redundant. He will take minutes away from Cunningham and Babbitt if he stays.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

If Turner were 19 and the player that he is now he would have been the #1 pick. If Favors were 22 and the player he is now he would not have been drafted in the lottery.

Do you agree with those statements?

If you agree, will you still argue age is not relevant?

Ed O.

I never said age wasn't relevant. Why do you make up strawmen so often? Of course Favors was drafted for potential, but production does matter as well. Turner was much more productive than Favors, and I imagine he'll be a much better production value on his rookie contract than Favor will be, and possibly even Wall.

 

[Ed O]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Back to the topic for a moment......

I predict that Gomes either gets traded before next Wednesday OR will be waived by us. He is redundant. He will take minutes away from Cunningham and Babbitt if he stays.

If he's a better player than Cunningham, does it make sense to get rid of him to clear up minutes? And if he's not better, then why would he get minutes?

If we don't use him as a trade chip then I could see us cutting him to save millions of bones, but not due to a minutes crunch.

Ed O.

 

[Ed O]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I never said age wasn't relevant. Why do you make up strawmen so often? Of course Favors was drafted for potential, but production does matter as well. Turner was much more productive than Favors, and I imagine he'll be a much better production value on his rookie contract than Favor will be, and possibly even Wall.

I totally agree production is critical. It's more important than age, because a supremely productive 27 year-old is a more valuable "prospect" than an average 19 year-old college player.

I don't understand why you are mocking my position and debating with Minstrel if you don't disagree with us that age is a consideration.

Ed O.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

It's not about what he "can help". It matters how he projects. He is a year older and more physically mature than many in the draft, and that gives him an advantage over people that are younger than he is in terms of present production. It also tends to indicate his present production is closer to his ceiling, indicating his NPV is less than a player who is younger but has the same level of production.

Ed O.

Yet Babbitt was much more productive in college, at one year older, than many of the players drafted ahead of him. Plus, his shooting stats translate regardless of competition. He's a 42% collegiate 3-point shooter, and an 88% FT shooter who gets to the line nearly 7 times a game. Paul Millsap was similarly productive in college, and played his first season at 21, which Babbitt will be as well.

The guy turned 21 on Sunday. I think you're overvaluing the age thing. At some point, production must be realized, especially when you're picking at #16 as opposed to #1, 2, or 3.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I totally agree production is critical. It's more important than age, because a supremely productive 27 year-old is a more valuable "prospect" than an average 19 year-old college player.

I don't understand why you are mocking my position and debating with Minstrel if you don't disagree with us that age is a consideration.

Ed O.

I do agree, but not to the level that you do, at least in terms of productive players. Brandon Roy was productive at UW and was old when drafted. I think Babbitt, much younger than Roy, has proven that at the very least he will be able to shoot the ball. I don't see him being barely 21 as a negative. A shooter is a shooter. Rarely can you take a bad shooter who is 19 and make him a great shooter at 21, if that is what you are seeking for your roster.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

If he's a better player than Cunningham, does it make sense to get rid of him to clear up minutes? And if he's not better, then why would he get minutes?

If we don't use him as a trade chip then I could see us cutting him to save millions of bones, but not due to a minutes crunch.

Ed O.

He hasn't proven to be better than Cunningham, and they play different positions. May as well pay Cunningham 2nd round money than Gomes' deal to battle for 10th man in the rotation.

 

[Ed O]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

Yet Babbitt was much more productive in college, at one year older, than many of the players drafted ahead of him. Plus, his shooting stats translate regardless of competition. He's a 42% collegiate 3-point shooter, and an 88% FT shooter who gets to the line nearly 7 times a game. Paul Millsap was similarly productive in college, and played his first season at 21, which Babbitt will be as well.

The guy turned 21 on Sunday. I think you're overvaluing the age thing. At some point, production must be realized, especially when you're picking at #16 as opposed to #1, 2, or 3.

I'm not arguing we made a bad pick. I'm not saying he's not a good prospect. I just initially said that 21 is a bit old for my tastes. That led to another poster taking some sort of issue with that and not letting it go, and you jumping in, too, in spite of us not disagreeing about this as far as I can tell.

Ed O.

 

[BGrantFan]

Re: What happens with Gomes?

I'm not arguing we made a bad pick. I'm not saying he's not a good prospect. I just initially said that 21 is a bit old for my tastes. That led to another poster taking some sort of issue with that and not letting it go, and you jumping in, too, in spite of us not disagreeing about this as far as I can tell.

Ed O.

Based on what parameters? He's a 6'9" shooter who can handle the ball if needed. We had all heard going into the draft that the Blazers wanted outside shooting. Would you instead draft a 19 year-old who can't shoot as well, and hope that he develops into a better shooter than old man Babbitt (who turned 21 5 days ago) is right now? How many 50/40/90 shooters who play SF are available at any age? If the guy becomes a poor man's Kyle Korver, I'll be thrilled, but I think his ceiling is higher due to his explosive vertical and larger size.