Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexually'

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Ruining lives by prosecuting rape when it was consensual are also terrible experiences. I'd rather not give parents, who can be irrational just like all other humans, that sort of extra discretion to ignore the need to prove non-consent.

Someone has to have the discretion, and giving it to the state is the worst possible way to handle it. The state WILL arbitrarily prosecute, while parents might know their kids are not engaging in rape.

But you know best.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Someone has to have the discretion, and giving it to the state is the worst possible way to handle it. The state WILL arbitrarily prosecute, while parents might know their kids are not engaging in rape.

How will the state prosecute if it's not illegal?

Unless you mean in the case of the girl alleging force, in which case you're saying parents might not have prosecuted? Doubtful. And even if so, it should be prosecuted if one party alleges force.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

How will the state prosecute if it's not illegal?

Unless you mean in the case of the girl alleging force, in which case you're saying parents might not have prosecuted? Doubtful. And even if so, it should be prosecuted if one party alleges force.

If it's not illegal, then there's nothing to stop 45 year old men from raping 12 year olds.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

If it's not illegal, then there's nothing to stop 45 year old men from raping 12 year olds.

Your math is off if you think 45 years old and 12 years old is one year apart.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Your math is off if you think 45 years old and 12 years old is one year apart.

You realize few states prosecute a difference of one year. Yet it still is a tool for prosecutors to get the actual bad guys.

No matter how you try to weasel your way out of it, the law protects young women and girls from rapists.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

You realize few states prosecute a difference of one year.

It's the discretion to make irrational (or simply discriminatory) choices on who to prosecute that's the problem.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

It's the discretion to make irrational (or simply discriminatory) choices on who to prosecute that's the problem.

That's why you leave it in the hands of the parents. They know the children involved. The prosecutors do not.

The prosecutors do have the discretion to NOT prosecute when it gets down to it.

What I don't want to see is the cops arresting kids parked in a car somewhere and prosecuting them on their own. Doesn't matter if the kids are 1 year apart or 4 or 6. The parents know the relationship much better than any third party.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

That's why you leave it in the hands of the parents. They know the children involved. The prosecutors do not.

That assumes parents are above being irrational and discriminatory. As they are humans, just like prosecutors, they aren't above that.

What I don't want to see is the cops arresting kids parked in a car somewhere and prosecuting them on their own.

I don't want to see that either. I don't think anyone should have the power to prosecute unless a crime is alleged. Consensual sex between two people within a year or so in their ages shouldn't be a crime.

And if force is alleged, it should be prosecuted, whether or not the parents want it prosecuted.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

The parents who aren't rational will not have their cases prosecuted.

If the girl says no, and the boy says "she said yes" then what?

It's rape. The law AS-IS solves it.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

If the girl says no, and the boy says "she said yes" then what?

Then it's non-consensual which we both agree should be prosecuted.

 

[The_Lillard_King]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Okay, then who would be in a better position than parents to determine "the best interest(s) of the child"?

Well you are not going to like my answer . . . the gov't.

It has been determined through our system (and I speak only of Oregon) that it is not in the best interest of a child to be having sex with someone 3 years older than the child.

There are likely going to be exceptions to this and one would hope that a prosecutor would meet with detectives specially assigned to these cases, doctors and parents to decide when those exceptions occur and make the judgement call not to prosecute in those situations.

But in general, laws that are created basically tell society what they can and cannot do. I would rather the discretion of enforcing the laws be put in the hands of educated people who swear to uphold the law and put well thought out policies in place rather than each individual parents who could be basing their decisions on a plethora of factors.

In practice, good responsible parents are almost always working in conjunction and agreement with the district attorney (which is an elected position). And really many of these cases prosecuted are kids that come from bad backgrounds and are the most easy to prey on.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Then it's non-consensual which we both agree should be prosecuted.

It's non consensual because the girl can't consent if she's under age.

The age thing is there to protect her against the 45 year old predatory types.

You're just so wrong on this. The law and judges and everyone else who knows anything about it has it right.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

The age thing is there to protect her against the 45 year old predatory types.

In that case, there should be no problem making consensual sex between teens within a year of each other's age legal. 45 year olds will never be within one year of age of someone below age 18.

Glad we agree.

 

[MarAzul]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Yes, I'm sure 17 year olds and 18 year olds are massively different in their ability to understand the world and make decisions. A light switch goes on during your 18th birthday...science! We don't want 18 year olds preying on their 17 year old boyfriends/girlfriends, even if they were the same age when they started dating.

Your argument is irrelevant. The child does not become able to consent until the age of 18. She needs permission from her parents to marry and the law rightfully says that it is unlawful for anyone to skip this step because
she is not able to consent on her own. Now it is the same for boys but not so important. Consequences do not compare.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Congruences do not compare.

If by "congruences" you mean, "almost exactly the same age and capacity for understanding the import of their actions," why don't they compare?

 

[NewsSource]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Your argument is irrelevant. The child does not become able to consent until the age of 18. She needs permission from her parents to marry and the law rightfully says that it is unlawful for anyone to skip this step because
she is not able to consent on her own. Now it is the same for boys but not so important. Congruences do not compare.

To play Devil's Advocate, a 17 year-old female doesn't have to get permission from her parents to get, say, an abortion.

 

[MarAzul]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

To play Devil's Advocate, a 17 year-old female doesn't have to get permission from her parents to get, say, an abortion.

Go figure.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

In that case, there should be no problem making consensual sex between teens within a year of each other's age legal. 45 year olds will never be within one year of age of someone below age 18.

Glad we agree.

You don't agree, though. You just fight the wrong side like barfo

 

[MarAzul]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

If by "Consequences" you mean, "almost exactly the same age and capacity for understanding the import of their actions," why don't they compare?

fify

 

[jlprk]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Skimming through this I don't know if posters understand that in Oregon:

when a defendant is charged with engaging in sexual intercourse with a victim who "does not consent" and "the victim's lack of consent was due solely to incapacity to consent by reason of being less than a specified age, it is a defense that the actor was under three years older than the victim at the time of the alleged offense."


Also in the tri-county area, prosecutors will prosecute regardless if the parents or the victim does not want to prosecute.

Statutory rape is not something that is treated lightly in this state . . . and I completely agree with this policy.

What does "it is a defense" mean:
1) Prosecutors will never prosecute it, or
2) During the trial, evidence will be allowed that the age difference was under 3 years. This may or may not sway the jury.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

You don't agree, though.

No, we agree that age of consent laws are meant to prevent 45 year olds from preying on persons below the age of 18, so there's no harm in excepting couples who are within a year of each other's ages from the concept of statutory rape (non-statutory rape--i.e. non-consensual sex--would carry no exceptions).

Glad we could come together in the end.

 

[Denny Crane]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

No, we agree that age of consent laws are meant to prevent 45 year olds from preying on persons below the age of 18, so there's no harm in excepting couples who are within a year of each other's ages from the concept of statutory rape (non-statutory rape--i.e. non-consensual sex--would carry no exceptions).

Glad we could come together in the end.

I think you keep saying we agree when I clearly don't is bullshit.

They do except couples within 1-3 years in age in all but a few states.

But you failed to argue or convince me that there's anything wrong with the laws as written.

The only thing anyone's said in this whole thread is crandc pointing out that the laws have been made different for male victims than for females or different for gay participants than for straight ones. That I agree with her is wrong.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

They do except couples within 1-3 years in age in all but a few states.

They have the discretion to except such couples. However, it should always be an exception. We agree because you said (and I agree) that age of consent laws aren't meant to nail an 18/17 year old couple having consensual sex, they're meant to nail 45 year olds having sex (consensual or not) with personages under the age of 18, where there is very plausibly a significant experience/understanding divide.

You're saying the same thing I am, but you seem to think there's a conflict.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

They have the discretion to except such couples. However, it should always be an exception. We agree because you said (and I agree) that age of consent laws aren't meant to nail an 18/17 year old couple having consensual sex, they're meant to nail 45 year olds having sex (consensual or not) with personages under the age of 18, where there is very plausibly a significant experience/understanding divide.

You're saying the same thing I am, but you seem to think there's a conflict.

Denny just likes to argue. You're the new Barfo.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Denny just likes to argue. You're the new Barfo.

Denny and I go back almost a decade. Can you imagine, that's how long he's been wrong about stuff!

 

[jlprk]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

1) They do except couples within 1-3 years in age in all but a few states....2) the laws have been made different for male victims than for females or different for gay participants than for straight ones.

Do you have a link for either Statement 1 or 2? In most states, you say? I've never read either until this thread. Maybe in a few states the law makes exceptions, but most?

 

[NewsSource]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Unless anybody involved in this thread is 15-19 years old, I don't see why it's continuing. As it is, it's a bunch of 30ish-50ish dudes (or women) arguing about whether or not a 17 year-old can diddle a 14 year-old legally. It affects very few here, except those of us with kids entering their tween years or teen years.

 

[jlprk]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

I just don't see myself ever raping a statue. And even if I did I'm positive it would be an adult statue. It might not have any arms but that is as far as my kinkiness would go.

Whenever a thread on this issue appears, SlyPokerDog becomes offended that any part of law could possibly be debatable. The definition of a fascist is a person who can't separate his conscience, his mental system of morality, from the legal system's rules.

 

[Minstrel]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

Unless anybody involved in this thread is 15-19 years old, I don't see why it's continuing. As it is, it's a bunch of 30ish-50ish dudes (or women) arguing about whether or not a 17 year-old can diddle a 14 year-old legally. It affects very few here, except those of us with kids entering their tween years or teen years.

I'm 17 years old, not that it should matter.

 

[jlprk]

Re: Michele Bachmann: Gays Want To Let Adults 'Freely Prey On Little Children Sexuall

I just don't see myself ever raping a statue. And even if I did I'm positive it would be an adult statue. It might not have any arms but that is as far as my kinkiness would go.

In threads about this subject, SlyPokerDog is always full of contempt for everyone who debates this law.