Religion Mid East Religious War, Now with added USA Involvement!

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This is not going to end well… at all…

how long until this thread and the Ukraine thread gets merged into the “official world war three” thread?
 
AmirIcon said:
I don't really disagree. I would say the Israeli regime is also full of religious crazies. Most governments have hijacked religion and made it more extreme as a way of controlling the population.
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Unfortunately, it is true, but I would argue that a big part of that is actually still because of the Hamas election by the people of Gaza which immediatly threw out the Oslo agreement. After that, the people of Israel which voted for left leaning governments that were pushing the 2 state agreement were taken out as people in Israel did not believe the Palestinians actually want peace. There was a distinct movement to the right on the Israeli public and with it government after that - and it is hard to argue with why.

The Israelis went our of their way to give the Palestinians authorization over the west bank and Gaza (including removing over 20 settlements in Gaza) - all the Palestinians gave up was the agreement that Israel has the right to exist, and then they chose Hamas which immediately reneged on this agreement. IIRC, the PA also became more confrontational because they were afraid they would lose control of the west bank as they did in Gaza - and the shit escalated from there.

I think the last time Israel had a left leaning government was before the Oslo agreements (someone with better grasp on Israeli politics might be able to help with better stats). When they went down and the terror attacks did not stop followed by Hamas taking over Gaza, the country turned right wing. We can rightfully say there is a bunch of crazies in the Israeli government, but we can also very clearly show why this happened, it was mostly because the work for peace proved to be useless against the radical Iran sponsored radicals that still seem to run a large portion of Palestinians.
 
andalusian said:
Unfortunately, it is true, but I would argue that a big part of that is actually still because of the Hamas election by the people of Gaza which immediatly threw out the Oslo agreement. After that, the people of Israel which voted for left leaning governments that were pushing the 2 state agreement were taken out as people in Israel did not believe the Palestinians actually want peace. There was a distinct movement to the right on the Israeli public and with it government after that - and it is hard to argue with why.

The Israelis went our of their way to give the Palestinians authorization over the west bank and Gaza (including removing over 20 settlements in Gaza) - all the Palestinians gave up was the agreement that Israel has the right to exist, and then they chose Hamas which immediately reneged on this agreement. IIRC, the PA also became more confrontational because they were afraid they would lose control of the west bank as they did in Gaza - and the shit escalated from there.

I think the last time Israel had a left leaning government was before the Oslo agreements (someone with better grasp on Israeli politics might be able to help with better stats). When they went down and the terror attacks did not stop followed by Hamas taking over Gaza, the country turned right wing. We can rightfully say there is a bunch of crazies in the Israeli government, but we can also very clearly show why this happened, it was mostly because the work for peace proved to be useless against the radical Iran sponsored radicals that still seem to run a large portion of Palestinians.
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Much of Hamas' origins come from the Israeli government and as recent as 2019, Bibi is on record saying they need to bolster Hamas and funnel funds to them and that was their strategy. Behind the scenes is totally opposite of what Israel claims they want (and wanted) at the time. Everyone needs a good boogeyman to sedate the population and take control. Hamas has been Israel's boogeyman that they themselves created and platformed behind the scenes.
 
Hamas came to power in Gaza in 2006, the fact that the current conservative government in Israel is conservative is not a surprise to anyone, but the reason it is even in power is because whenever a 2 state solution was gaining traction the Palestinians were against it, even after getting authority over Gaza and the West bank.

So, crying that someone put a fence between 2 properties while throwing stones at them is hypocrisy. It's that simple.
 
andalusian said:
Hamas came to power in Gaza in 2006, the fact that the current conservative government in Israel is conservative is not a surprise to anyone, but the reason it is even in power is because whenever a 2 state solution was gaining traction the Palestinians were against it, even after getting authority over Gaza and the West bank.

So, crying that someone put a fence between 2 properties while throwing stones at them is hypocrisy. It's that simple.
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Disingenuous at best. You think this is about a fence? You can't be that dense. And Israel has broken more agreements.

You don't have to beat around the bush, just come out and say you're okay with an apartheid system and brutal occupation.

Hamas was bolstered by Israel so that can continue the occupation and the continued illegal settlements, breaking international law.
 
We discussed earlier why it is not apartheid when Israel has millions of arab citizens.

There's no issue with Israel not allowing people that are committed to it's destruction from coming in. There's one side that repeatedly didn't want to accept the 2 states solution and its not Israel.

Until the Palestinians are willing to work at peace there can be no peace. Israel made peace with Egypt, Jordan, Qatar, normalization talk with the Saudis.

The proof is in the pudding. The main reason this situation exists is because of the continued resistance of the Palestinian representatives.

That is the crux of the issue.
 
Watch this video to learn about Hamas operations in the USA. I know many of you do not like Fox news, but, this report is worth watching.

 
AmirIcon said:
Much of Hamas' origins come from the Israeli government and as recent as 2019, Bibi is on record saying they need to bolster Hamas and funnel funds to them and that was their strategy. Behind the scenes is totally opposite of what Israel claims they want (and wanted) at the time. Everyone needs a good boogeyman to sedate the population and take control. Hamas has been Israel's boogeyman that they themselves created and platformed behind the scenes.
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This is a repugnant take. Where do you get such disinformation? Why would you spread it? Utter bullshit. Offensive.
 
Stevenson said:
This is a repugnant take. Where do you get such disinformation? Why would you spread it? Utter bullshit. Offensive.
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So now the New York Times of Israel is disinformation? I provided a link. I wish you were offended about a genocide rather than my post based off an article. I'm offended too.
 
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oldfisherman said:
Watch this video to learn about Hamas operations in the USA. I know many of you do not like Fox news, but, this report is worth watching.

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Mark Levin is probably the most extreme and far-right figure associated with Fox. Hamas is a terror group the same as the Israeli government is. Get rid of them both like the people want and find peace.

The justification for dehumanization and occupation is what lead lead to the plight of the Jews. Let's not repeat it again.

If a gang of violent criminals run into your neighborhood, the state is not allowed to bomb the hell out of your neighborhood looking for those criminals. That's illegal.
 
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If the gang of violent criminals was elected to run the neighborhood by the residents ( which is what happened with Hamas in Gaza ) - I would argue the neighborhood residents are partially responsible for the state their neighborhood is.

Now, I am not saying there aren't many Palestinians that suffer even tho they don't want that gang, but there are millions of Israelis that don't want war either that live under threats of terror daily.

The crux of the problem still is Hamas, and if the Palestinians are unwilling or unable to remove them, I don't see how you can logically accept Israel just lives with it.

Again, the Palestinians wanted authority over Gaza and Israel, Israel gave it to them so the terror stops and there can be a process for peace. The Palestinians elected a terror organization to have authority over them, renounced the agreement that Israel has a right to exist and continuously escalated terror activities, and yet you continue to blame Israel for protecting itself and it's citizens.

That's textbook the propaganda the terror organizations use.
 
By that standard we deserved 9/11 ten fold. There is not a regime in the world that is more violent than the American government. It has upended most the countries in Latin America and the Middle East.

People are not their governments. We need to remember that on both sides as antisemitism increases around the world due to Israel's policies and double standard.

I'm done talking to bad faith actors trying to justify genocide on either side.
 
What do you suggest the Israeli government do?

Until Hamas is willing to stop their terror operations their options are:

1. Ignore what Hamas does and let their own citizens live in constant fear of terror.

or

2. Try to hurt Hamas while also trying as much as possible to limit citizen casualties.

These are the only options they have - and I can't think of any government that will stay in power if they choose #1 - Israelis, rightfully, have the right to live peacefully too.

We can go tit for tat on every little thing, but it all comes down to a very simple thing. When you elect a terrorist organization to run your "government" - you have to live with the consequences. They (Hamas) don't care about hurting civilians on either side. Israel has to live with the much harder task of trying to minimize civilian casualties.

The cause of the problem is Hamas. Holding Israel to task to try and minimize citizen casualties is the right thing to do, but criticizing it for doing whatever it can to protect it's citizens against a foe that has no regard for human life is not right and falls into the propaganda that Hamas uses as a weapon.
 
andalusian said:
What do you suggest the Israeli government do?

Until Hamas is willing to stop their terror operations their options are:

1. Ignore what Hamas does and let their own citizens live in constant fear of terror.

or

2. Try to hurt Hamas while also trying as much as possible to limit citizen casualties.

These are the only options they have - and I can't think of any government that will stay in power if they choose #1 - Israelis, rightfully, have the right to live peacefully too.

We can go tit for tat on every little thing, but it all comes down to a very simple thing. When you elect a terrorist organization to run your "government" - you have to live with the consequences. They (Hamas) don't care about hurting civilians on either side. Israel has to live with the much harder task of trying to minimize civilian casualties.

The cause of the problem is Hamas. Holding Israel to task to try and minimize citizen casualties is the right thing to do, but criticizing it for doing whatever it can to protect it's citizens against a foe that has no regard for human life is not right and falls into the propaganda that Hamas uses as a weapon.
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What does Hamas have anything to do with bombing the West Bank? Egypt? Jordan? Lebanon? Absolutely nothing. They don't reside in any of those regions. Israel has killed American journalists in the past and are cracking down on their own right now for reporting on the facts.

Hamas was propped up by Israel and elected BECAUSE OF THE OCCUPATION. I've already provided the evidence.

Haaretz (the New York Times of Israel) and the Israeli people overwhelmingly hold Netanyahu responsible for this, not so much Hamas.

Unless the occupation ends, this cycle of violence will continue.
 
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Hamas has operatives in the west bank. It's nothing new. Israel has the right to operate against it not just in Gaza.

Hezbollah (another Iran supported terror group) operates out of Lebanon.

I am not sure what you are talking about bombing in Egypt and Jordan, but since both have peace treaties with Israel... it is clear that whatever happened there is at the border and accidental.

The only way the occupation ends is if the Palestinians agree that Israel has the right to exist. It's that simple and you again and again ignore the fact that one group has traditionally been working for peace and the other did not. Hamas exists because of the radical elements that are unwilling to accept Israel's right to exist. If this means that Israel created it, so be it, but this is victim blaming at it's finest. You basically claim that the terror ends when the occupation ends, but history has shown that giving in to the terror groups does not work, it just strengthens their resolve to do the same and want more. We all know that if Israel would leave Gaza and the west bank alone the terror will continue until they take all of Israel. It's basically what happened after the Oslo accord was negated by Hamas. Instead of continuing with the peace process per the agreement, they reneged and resumed terror activities. History tells us that Israel has no choice.

Basically what you are saying is: "You want to live, therefore you created the killer that wants to execute you". Shameful.

The fact that a lot of the Israeli people do not like Bibi is not a surprise, but the ongoing terror from the Palestinians keeps him popping up and being elected like a a cockroach. You keep on blaming the people that tried to live peacefully for also trying to stay alive. Just shameful acceptance of propaganda.

I honestly have nothing more to add to this. I hope this ends quickly with minimum casualties on both sides, but I have no problem with Israel protecting itself against terror groups - and anyone that does - I hope for them they never have to be in this kind of situation where an aggressor targets them in such shameful way.
 
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andalusian said:
I am not sure what you are talking about bombing in Egypt and Jordan, but since both have peace treaties with Israel... it is clear that whatever happened there is at the border and accidental.
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This is the kind of propaganda people are resentful of and it's showing all over the world. Thank you for providing this old, played out propaganda. When it's brown people killing, it's terrorism. When it's white people killing, it's "accidental." GARBAGE.

But I'm glad to see the majority of the world is tired of this take and is firmly pushing for a free Palestine. If things were in reverse and Israel was occupied by Palestine making them live under a brutal, repressive state, I'd be saying the exact same thing.
 
AmirIcon said:
This is the kind of propaganda people are resentful of and it's showing all over the world. Thank you for providing this old, played out propaganda. When it's brown people killing, it's terrorism. When it's white people killing, it's "accidental." GARBAGE.
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Israel has about 20% of Arab population, of the Jewish population, over 50% are Sephardic which come from the same areas that the Arab population come, so the majority of Israel is not "white". Sorry man, you once again are trying to insert race into a place it is not a part of. This is about security against terror, not race.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-mazzig-mizrahi-jews-israel-20190520-story.html
 
andalusian said:
Israel has about 20% of Arab population, of the Jewish population, over 50% are Sephardic which come from the same areas that the Arab population come, so the majority of Israel is not "white". Sorry man, you once again are trying to insert race into a place it is not a part of. This is about security against terror, not race.

https://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-mazzig-mizrahi-jews-israel-20190520-story.html
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SlyPokerDog said:
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What he would call rape and murder, others would call "accidents" around these parts.
 
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AmirIcon said:
What he would call rape and murder, others would call "accidents" around these parts.
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This is clearly a violation and disgusting. Please do not put words in my mouth, Bombing a tunnel near the border and missing and hitting over the border is an accident. This is no accident, just as the attack on a music festival is not an accident.

Once again, I never once claimed that there were no violations on one side or another, I have publicly said in this thread that I think the settlements are an abomination, but I tried to get to the crux of the problem. I hate it when people try to subvert from the issue at hand by using anecdotal evidence.

There is shit all over the place, but the crux of the issue is that one side has repeatedly been opposed to a 2 state solution. That's where it starts and until this is fixed, it will not end. Sad, but true.
 
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Like the computer in War Games said, the only winning move is not to play. But there is non-miniscule chance this will spark WW3.

It would be interesting to see what kind of advanced weaponry countries have up their sleeve. The US is deploying DEWs, which I suspect may be a counter to the hypersonic missiles our rivals have in their arsenal.
 
beast crnjo said:
Like the computer in War Games said, the only winning move is not to play. But there is non-miniscule chance this will spark WW3.

It would be interesting to see what kind of advanced weaponry countries have up their sleeve. The US is deploying DEWs, which I suspect may be a counter to the hypersonic missiles our rivals have in their arsenal.
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DEW weapons have developed to be an effective weapon against slower moving targets, such as drones and sub-sonic cruise missiles.

However, due to a variety of conditions, they can not now, and probably will never be able to destroy hypersonic missiles.

Particles in the air, such as dust and moisture, limit DEWs max accurate range to around 5 miles. The laser beam needs to hit the exact same moving spot for a long enough time to heat up, and then destroy the target. DEWs on ships today need about 15 seconds on target to destroy it. Hypersonic missiles travel too fast.
 
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