Miracles

[umair]

<div class="quote_poster">Karma Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">
WHY do you need a plant to justify your faith? If you're faithful to Allah, and you believe in the concepts taught by the Qua'ran, why do you need Arabic spelled out over clouds and plants to provide justification for His existence? What's the point of believing when you need justification?</div>

Of course Quran shows us and makes us believe in the existence of Allah, but the clouds and all that shows us that also. That is just another thing that shows us that Allah is there watching over us. It's not like a Muslim forgets Quran and leans specifically to clouds and everything to believe that God is there. You guys I think are making a big deal about the nature thing. Us Muslims really don't rely on these things to believe in God, but it shows us how God made these things and it also shows us that he is there. We Muslims dont rely on things like this to believe in God. We definitely do read the Quran to learn about Allah and his existence. The nature and all are just things that interest people and show people how Allah made those things which lead onto my point about Allah's existence. Don't think that when I am saying it shows Allah's existence that Muslims rely on those things to believe in God. That is just part of it. Those things to me are interesting and show me how Allah made those things. That's all, but I definitely do read Quran to learn about Islam and Allah.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">This whole post makes no sense; Chutney is Sikh, not Hindu.</div>
We weren't talking about me and Chutney, we were talking mainly about the differences in Islam and Hinduism.

 

[Bahir]

<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">So the mosque being the only thing left when Tsunami hit was a probability?</div>

Do you have a picture of the place before the tsunami hit? I've been in Thailand, and I can tell you that many of the buildings close to the beach are made of wood (which would obviously be less resistant to a massive wave than stone or concrete).

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
A kid memorizing an 800 page book and spreading Islam was a probability?</div>

That's a child with great learning capabilities. They come around every once in a while, so I guess there is a probability of that. How these extraordinary abilities shows is different from child to child, I remember seeing something on 60 minutes about a boy who at the age of 5 wrote symphonies, and could even master/play 4 symphonies at the same time (don't ask me how).

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">100s of things spelling the name of Allah is a probability?</div>

Yes, I've told you so already. But where are these hundreds of things? You have only shown a few of them so far. (And let it be known that we are showing you mercy in not questioning the authenticy of the pictures you have shown)

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
You're right that they can be a probability, but not everything! You can't say everything that happens is a probabilty. Everything I believe happens for a reason and what ever happens is done by Allah. </div>

I don't want to go too far into things here, but let's just say free will combined with everything following a set course of action (as it does with an omniscient god) is something I have yet to hear a good explanation of from the major religions that support that view.

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
You may know a lot about Islam but that doesn't give you the right to say that these types of things don't show anything. I believe whatever Allah does does for a reason. </div>

And what gives you the right? Because you are a muslim, and you find some pictures on the internet that "supports" your view, you have the right to tell us that these images are proof of a god, while we non-believers have no right to dispute your claim?

<div class="quote_poster">Quote:</div><div class="quote_post">
Exactly. It shows me that he is there. It shows that Allah made those things for people to know that he is there watching over them, it shows he made those things. What Allah does like for example 911 and Tsunami, I believe he does that for a reason. He wants Muslims to find the best way to be Muslims. He doesn't want everyone to be perfect, he wants us to know the difference between right and wrong and that's the reason he sets obstacles for us.</div>

So... Osama bin Laden, who is reportedly a muslim, found a good way of being a muslim by killing people in terror attacks the way he has done? But of course, the lord works in mysterious ways... right?

 

[I-Miss-MJ]

<div class="quote_poster">Umair Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Of course Quran shows us and makes us believe in the existence of Allah, but the clouds and all that shows us that also. That is just another thing that shows us that Allah is there watching over us. It's not like a Muslim forgets Quran and leans specifically to clouds and everything to believe that God is there. </div>

Why doesn't Allah (or any God for that matter) show himself and put all doubt to rest.

Does Allah watch the going's on in the Middle East with a smile? Or is he just too damn lazy to prove Islam is actually about peace and not idiots blowing themselves up in his name and tainting what he apparently stands for?

 

[Chutney]

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting Karma:</div><div class="quote_post">To veer slightly off topic, I think religions cause more harm than good, especially because it leads to misunderstandings and unwarranted conflicts. All it takes is one person from a certain faith to misunderstand something someone from a different faith states and it leads to conflicts. </div>
I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time I have to disagree. Religions don't cause misunderstandings, they only create differences. But, there are numerous other things in the world that divide people along different ideologies: politics, nationality, sexuality, economics, etc. There will always be differences in opinion and, honestly, I don't think its necessarily a bad thing.

Misunderstandings, however, arise from human fallibility (our imperfection).

<div class="quote_poster">Quoting I-Miss-MJ:</div><div class="quote_post">Why doesn't Allah (or any God for that matter) show himself and put all doubt to rest.

Does Allah watch the going's on in the Middle East with a smile? Or is he just too damn lazy to prove Islam is actually about peace and not idiots blowing themselves up in his name and tainting what he apparently stands for?</div>
I don't want to speak for the Muslims on this site, but I'll answer the way I usually do to this type of question (since you referred to any God, in general). I think, if God were to suddenly show himself, it would inspire people to worship him out of fear or merely in name. And that would deny them the intrinsic value that comes from worshipping him out of faith and from a deep understanding of the knowledge espoused by the prophets who spoke in his name.

Also, I find it funny how people believe that they can rationalize God's motives. On one side, they'll talk about an all-powerful God, but on the other, they'll expect him to follow our own understanding of logic and reality. I personally believe that its pointless to try and "map out" God's motivations, because it leads to a contradiction (how can he be all-powerful, when he's bound to our understanding of logic?). At a certain point, it comes down to a faith in his omnipotence.

 

[NBA MAN]

<div class="quote_poster">I-Miss-MJ Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">Why doesn't Allah (or any God for that matter) show himself and put all doubt to rest.

Does Allah watch the going's on in the Middle East with a smile? Or is he just too damn lazy to prove Islam is actually about peace and not idiots blowing themselves up in his name and tainting what he apparently stands for?</div>


Actually this has been prophecized by Islam.

 

[NBA MAN]

<div class="quote_poster">Chutney Wrote</div><div class="quote_post">I understand where you're coming from, but at the same time I have to disagree. Religions don't cause misunderstandings, they only create differences. But, there are numerous other things in the world that divide people along different ideologies: politics, nationality, sexuality, economics, etc. There will always be differences in opinion and, honestly, I don't think its necessarily a bad thing.

Misunderstandings, however, arise from human fallibility (our imperfection).


I don't want to speak for the Muslims on this site, but I'll answer the way I usually do to this type of question (since you referred to any God, in general). I think, if God were to suddenly show himself, it would inspire people to worship him out of fear or merely in name. And that would deny them the intrinsic value that comes from worshipping him out of faith and from a deep understanding of the knowledge espoused by the prophets who spoke in his name.

Also, I find it funny how people believe that they can rationalize God's motives. On one side, they'll talk about an all-powerful God, but on the other, they'll expect him to follow our own understanding of logic and reality. I personally believe that its pointless to try and "map out" God's motivations, because it leads to a contradiction (how can he be all-powerful, when he's bound to our understanding of logic?). At a certain point, it comes down to a faith in his omnipotence.</div>



Thats why its important to be educated about your religion and what faith you're in. I'm a muslim and I don't believe what this kid can do is a miracle. I still believe in Islam because I read the Quran and I ponder on it, and I study it. The amazing thing about the Quran is it has no contradictions. There are numerous verses which explain things scientifically which are impossible considering the time period. Thats why I believe in Islam, and I don't believe this kid is a "miracle of Allah"

 

[TheFreshPrince]

I don't see this as a miracle. I really think that everyone needs to chill out on "their" religion. No one cares that you are Muslim Umair, those pictures resemble the word Allah in arabic but aren't exactly perfect. And like others have said, these signs are meaningless. It only re states to you what you already believe.

 

[harbingerofdoom]

water to wine = miracle
separating the red sea = miracle

speaking languages !=miracle
reciting something that is written either from memory or not != miracle

I realize that everyone has their own beliefs. You can see miracles all around you if you look hard enough and have enough belief. The ancient Egyptians believed that gods were responsible for EVERYTHING. we know now that the moon revolves around the earth as it rotates while going around the sun giving us day, night, seasons and tides. None of these are associated with supernatural or miraculous powers and/or events any more.

Just as there are explanations for just about everything that we come across these days, im sure there is an explanation for this.

 

[NBA MAN]

Illiterate man writing Quran- miracle

 

[kobimel]

Look, if you want to consider that kid who can recite the Quran a miracle, go ahead. But then you have to consider other things of the same improbability and incredibility (you can find many examples of young children who can do amazing, unbelievable things, some in this thread and many more if you just search for "amazing feats by children" in Google) as miracles as well. Those things, IMO, are not miracles. They're improbable things that happen once in a while.

Someone made this point already (I believe it was Chutney and harbingerofdoom as well), but yet again, I'll bring it back up. Now, in 2007, you may believe that a kid who can do what that kid can do is a prophet and a miracle. But maybe in say, 2561, scientists will find something that explains how that kid can do what he does (like a part of his brain which gives him that capability, or a rare disease which is responsible).

As for the so-called "signs": the same point has been made by a couple of posters in this thread, including Chutney and Bahir, and I'll say it again. There's a never ending amount of plants, bee hives and clouds in this world. Don't you think that there's a chance that at least ONE of them will be in the shape of Jesus' face, Buddah, the word "Allah", the Star of David etc.? I'm sure you've seen some other incredible pictures of plants, objects, cereal, clouds etc. which take the shape of something holy or un-holy as well(for example, I'm sure you've come across the picture of the infamous "cactus with erection?"). But those things don't prove anything. It all depends on your point of view. If you look at a cloud and I look at that same cloud, we'll probably see different things. You may see a dog while I see a car. You may see the word "Allah" while I see a man with a crooked nose on top of a snake (really, I do see that). Does that mean I have to worship a weird dude who rides a snake? No, it doesn't. If you truly believe in something, you'll find signs of your belief everywhere you look. Those "signs" don't mean anything, they just prove to you that you believe in something. I'm sure that if you were, let's say, Christian with incredible knowledge in all things Arabic, you wouldn't look at that cloud and say, "Hey, that looks like the word "Allah!". I'm not telling you that you shouldn't believe that those things are signs from your god. You can believe anything you want, but you also have to aknowledge the fact that other people have an opinion, too, and their opinion means just as much as your's. Don't be stubborn.

Oh, and about the mosque that survived the tsunami: many many buildings survived that tsunami. I'm sure that if you could see the surrounding area which doesn't show in that picture, you'll find other buildings that survived. Mosques are built from sturdy material. There's a reason that they survive for hundreds of years. Plus, you can't trust any pictures from the internet. For all you know, someone drew that word on the bee hive and someone put the mosque on that ground via photoshop. I'm not saying the mosque isn't really there, I'm just saying you can't trust ANYONE anymore on the internet, so there's always a probability of something being fake.

 

[sunsfan1357]

I find it hilarious that people are trying to justify miracles of faith with scientific and natual law explanations as if those two realms intermingle with each other in the first place.

 

[AirJordan]

You know I could probably photoshop all those pictures of allah you put up?