More proof that rondo is available?

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Some of you aren't considering that Ainge may be getting a jump on the rebuilding process. The Magic and Cavs greatly improved themselves. Now we hear talk that Shaq could become the latest improvement to the Cavs. Ainge has to wonder if his team's capable of besting the elite East teams.

The heart and soul of their team, Garnett, has been on the decline since the 03-04 season. His PER has steadily dropped from 29.5 to last years total of 21.32. He's now 33.

Ray Allen's peak PER was back in 05-06, at 22.28. Last season he was down to 17.34! He'll be 34 heading into training camp.

Paul Pierce's peak PER was back in 05-06 also, at 23.71. Father time is catching up with him as well. Last season he posted a 17.74 PER. Pierce will be 32 at the beginning of the season.

Their main cogs will not be nearly what they were when they won their championship. Rondo's succession isn't enough to make up the difference.

Their biggest trading chip is Rondo. If they could move him in a package that rids them of Allen's contract in place of two promising talents (Ricky Rubio and Jason Thompson), I think that's a smart move.

They're likely not going to win the championship with this cast as it is, especially if Shaq becomes a Cav.
 
Crimson the Cat said:
Some of you aren't considering that Ainge may be getting a jump on the rebuilding process. The Magic and Cavs greatly improved themselves. Now we hear talk that Shaq could become the latest improvement to the Cavs. Ainge has to wonder if his team's capable of besting the elite East teams.

The heart and soul of their team, Garnett, has been on the decline since the 03-04 season. His PER has steadily dropped from 29.5 to last years total of 21.32. He's now 33.

Ray Allen's peak PER was back in 05-06, at 22.28. Last season he was down to 17.34! He'll be 34 heading into training camp.

Paul Pierce's peak PER was back in 05-06 also, at 23.71. Father time is catching up with him as well. Last season he posted a 17.74 PER. Pierce will be 32 at the beginning of the season.

Their main cogs will not be nearly what they were when they won their championship. Rondo's succession isn't enough to make up the difference.

Their biggest trading chip is Rondo. If they could move him in a package that rids them of Allen's contract in place of two promising talents (Ricky Rubio and Jason Thompson), I think that's a smart move.

They're likely not going to win the championship with this cast as it is, especially if Shaq becomes a Cav.
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I'm shocked. You mean to tell me that three number one options were all put on the same team and all their PER's went down?
 
How many of you think a healthy core of Garnett, Pierce, Allen, and Rondo, given their steady decline in production, is enough to get past the Cavs next season, let alone whoever comes out of the West.

I don't. Maybe I'm underestimating the impact of a 33-year old Garnett.
 
Crimson the Cat said:
And age has nothing to do with that either?
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Sure, a little. But none of the 3 is anywhere close to done. They have 2 more years as a legit contender, and losing to Orlando without KG and Powe isn't going to make them close that window.
 
44Thrilla said:
I'm shocked. You mean to tell me that three number one options were all put on the same team and all their PER's went down?
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Pierce dropped from 19.85, the championship year, to 17.74, last year.
Rondo increased from 15.75 to 18.90.
Garnett decreased from 25.42 to 21.32
Allen actually increased from 16.60 to 17.34.

These numbers, other than Allen, indicate to me that age, not team make-up, is more responsible for the change in PER. I'm comparing similar teams, just older players, right?
 
44Thrilla said:
Sure, a little. But none of the 3 is anywhere close to done. They have 2 more years as a legit contender, and losing to Orlando without KG and Powe isn't going to make them close that window.
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Many teams wait too long to rebuild. I'd actually be excited as a Celtics fan if they began the rebuilding process this off-season, rather than next off-season.

Odd are against them that they can beat the Cavs in a series next year.

I suppose an injury to key cog of the Cavs though would open up the door, wouldn't it. Maybe you're right. Maybe they should give it another try as is.
 
Crimson the Cat said:
Pierce dropped from 19.85, the championship year, to 17.74, last year.
Rondo increased from 15.75 to 18.90.
Garnett decreased from 25.42 to 21.32
Allen actually increased from 16.60 to 17.34.

These numbers, other than Allen, indicate to me that age, not team make-up, is more responsible for the change in PER. I'm comparing similar teams, just older players, right?
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So based on minor PER drops, they should rebuild? Ignore the fact that they were right in the thick of it for the best record until KG got hurt, had the 2 longest winning streaks, and that they took the eventual EC finalists to 7 games without their best player.
 
I think Boston would be beating the Lakers right now if they had a healthy KG and Powe. Injuries are part of the game and unfortunately for them...they hit at the wrong time.
 
Crimson the Cat said:
Many teams wait too long to rebuild. I'd actually be excited as a Celtics fan if they began the rebuilding process this off-season, rather than next off-season.

Odd are against them that they can beat the Cavs in a series next year.

I suppose an injury to key cog of the Cavs though would open up the door, wouldn't it. Maybe you're right. Maybe they should give it another try as is.
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What has Cleveland done to prove they can beat Boston in a series besides absolutely nothing?
 
44Thrilla said:
It does?

Really?

He says the Kings want Rondo and he speculates that it would take more than just the number 4 pick to get him.

How on Earth does that make it sound like the Celtics are willing to deal Rondo? Because people want him?

I'm so confused.
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The implication seemed to be that the Celtics could deal Rondo, but would want more than the #4.

As I said, Ford could be coming with this entirely out of his ass, but it sounded like the Celtics were potentially willing to deal him. Note, that is very different from the Celtics actively shopping him. I don't believe that they are actively shopping Rondo. But the tone of Ford's blurb suggested a higher level of interest by Boston to deal Rondo than I would have expected. I would have expected Rondo to be essentially untouchable. I think he's a potential Hall of Fame talent.
 
44Thrilla said:
What has Cleveland done to prove they can beat Boston in a series besides absolutely nothing?
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I suppose there's nothing I can directly point to that would provide indisputable proof. For me, it's more seeing the decline in one year of the individual Celtic parts and then expecting further decline. And then, imagining THAT to go up against a further improved Cleveland team.

Is this not reasonable thinking?
 
44Thrilla said:
I'm shocked. You mean to tell me that three number one options were all put on the same team and all their PER's went down?
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That actually shouldn't cause their PER to drop. PER is based on efficiency, not raw counting stats. We should expect all their raw points per game to drop, for example, but we should actually expect their scoring efficiency to rise together, because defenses can't focus on any one of them.

If it were just three "number one options" being placed together, their PERs shouldn't drop...they might even be expected to rise slightly. It's definitely age-related decline. All three of them look nothing like their peaks/primes. Garnett is still an excellent player, but that's because he declined from one of the several greatest power forwards ever. Pierce and Allen aren't nearly as dynamic as they were in their primes.

I think the Celtics have at least one more season as a title contender. Beyond that, it's wait-and-see on how much more they decline.
 
I guess the point I was trying to make is IF Rondo is available, I want him. I'd give up anyone other than the big three to get him.

If the Celts are looking to move him it's not because he's a head case, it's because they're rebuilding.
 
Minstrel said:
That actually shouldn't cause their PER to drop. PER is based on efficiency, not raw counting stats. We should expect all their raw points per game to drop, for example, but we should actually expect their scoring efficiency to rise together, because defenses can't focus on any one of them.

If it were just three "number one options" being placed together, their PERs shouldn't drop...they might even be expected to rise slightly. It's definitely age-related decline. All three of them look nothing like their peaks/primes. Garnett is still an excellent player, but that's because he declined from one of the several greatest power forwards ever. Pierce and Allen aren't nearly as dynamic as they were in their primes.

I think the Celtics have at least one more season as a title contender. Beyond that, it's wait-and-see on how much more they decline.
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It would be fun if that were true, but it's not. Team basketball is not something you can view in such terms, and I'm sorry, but if you put LeBron and Kobe on the same team, both of their PERs are going down.
 
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Crimson the Cat said:
I suppose there's nothing I can directly point to that would provide indisputable proof. For me, it's more seeing the decline in one year of the individual Celtic parts and then expecting further decline. And then, imagining THAT to go up against a further improved Cleveland team.

Is this not reasonable thinking?
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It is reasonable for you to think that, but not Danny Ainge or anybody else in the Celtics organization. Which is what really matters.
 
Minstrel said:
That actually shouldn't cause their PER to drop. PER is based on efficiency, not raw counting stats. We should expect all their raw points per game to drop, for example, but we should actually expect their scoring efficiency to rise together, because defenses can't focus on any one of them.

If it were just three "number one options" being placed together, their PERs shouldn't drop...they might even be expected to rise slightly. It's definitely age-related decline. All three of them look nothing like their peaks/primes. Garnett is still an excellent player, but that's because he declined from one of the several greatest power forwards ever. Pierce and Allen aren't nearly as dynamic as they were in their primes.

I think the Celtics have at least one more season as a title contender. Beyond that, it's wait-and-see on how much more they decline.
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Is that really true? While age is a factor, PER does depend on touches somewhat, how much one handles the ball and such.

Scottie Pippen for example never had over 21.5 PER, then had 22.6 the year MJ was gone for most of the season, and 23.5 when MJ was gone the whole year. I think there is definitely a correlation that disputes the raw number pov.

The Celtics are getting older but them playing together also means they need to subjugate themselves.
 
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Boston's got another year in them to make a run but obviously needs its Big 3 to stay healthy, or else they got no chance. With several up-and-coming teams, and others that will be improved, they'll be left in the dust if they think their core has 2-3 years left.
 
Rondo's not going anywhere. The Celtics would be wise to keep the current roster together until KG and Pierce can't get out of bed in the morning... they've got some young players that they've worked into the mix and they won't enter the post-KG era as title contenders, but they shouldn't be terrible, either.

Ed O.
 
I wouldn't mind making a play for Ray Allen at this point in his career. I don't know what it would really take but he'd be a pretty nice addition next to Roy (if we want Roy as primary distributor, I don't necessarily).
 
44Thrilla said:
It would be fun if that were true, but it's not. Team basketball is not something you can view in such terms
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In what terms? My view was based on team basketball. The dynamics of having several good/great players will lead to superior efficiency since none of the players are the entire focus of the defense as they would be if they were the lone star.

I may have overstated it in suggesting that their PERs could increase together, but I find your claim that they've all dropped off simply due to being together to be pretty uncompelling. If you think they they're still playing at their prime levels, you're delusional. You seem to be arguing emotionally rather than rationally. I don't think any objective observer would claim that Garnett, Pierce and Allen haven't significantly dropped off as they've gotten older.
 
My guess is that if there's anything to these rumors at all (and there probably isn't) then it is less a sign that Ainge wants to get rid of Rondo and more a sign that he's fallen in love with a player high in the draft (presumably Rubio) and realizes that it would take Rondo to get the pick. That being the case, we couldn't get Rondo at all (unless we can offer something nicer for the pick and then turn around and trade it for Rondo).
 
44Thrilla said:
Doing my best Chutney impression, I decided to investigate this "rumor". Went to TrueHoop and found the linked "article". Hey, what do you know? It's from a fan blog! Must be credible. Did some further investigation and found the Chad Fraud article where the speculation originated from.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draf...ory?columnist=ford_chad&page=DraftBuzz-090612

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draf...ory?columnist=ford_chad&page=DraftBuzz-090612

Wow, sure sounds like the Celtics are dying to rid themselves of such a cancer.
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Well then your research sucks. There were plenty of articles about Rondo problems surfacing about the time the Celtics were playing the Bulls in the playoffs. One of the subjects of one of them, was the fact that Doc Rivers had to approach Rondo and ask him why all of his team mates hated playing with him. I could give a shit less about your draft insider articles. The articles were nothing to do with the draft, and were at a different time of the year not associated with the draft. Draft insider articles are mostly speculation, at best.
 
Well, here is a trade that works salary wise and I think Boston might go for:

Blake, Bayless, Outlaw and Pryzbilla for Allen and Rondo.

That's a lot for the Blazers to give, they would have to really believe that Rondo is the real deal; i agree with other posters, why is Boston trying to trade Rondo if he is as appears?
 
hasoos said:
Well then your research sucks. There were plenty of articles about Rondo problems surfacing about the time the Celtics were playing the Bulls in the playoffs. One of the subjects of one of them, was the fact that Doc Rivers had to approach Rondo and ask him why all of his team mates hated playing with him. I could give a shit less about your draft insider articles. The articles were nothing to do with the draft, and were at a different time of the year not associated with the draft. Draft insider articles are mostly speculation, at best.
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do yourself a favor and go back and read that Jackie Mac article before you try to summarize it again. Yes, that article did come out during the Bulls series, but the Ainge and Rivers quotes in it were them talking about him when he was a rookie. The whole point of the article was about how much he has progressed as a leader on the floor from then to now. Im on my phone, so I can't link you to it right now, but I will when I get home because I like you and I don't want you to embarrass yourself anymore than you already have.
 
Im pretty sure the only points I've tried to make are that Rondo doesn't have attitude issues and that Ainge hasn't 'given up on him'. The Detroit rumor doesn't negate anything I tried to say because it would be great value in return. I said before that if they traded him, it would have to be for something big, and Rip, Stuckey and Prince is definitely big. That would be a big improvement for us, as much as I love Rondo.
 
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