OT Most Portland riot suspects won't be prosecuted, US attorney reveals

[Orion Bailey]

If a police officer can't handle that then he ought to be in another line of work.

okay but did they know they woild have to deal with that at the time of acception a position as an officer?

i dont know. I dont beleive so but i dont know the training details.
How about ww should get more officers more training to deal with what they now have to deal with that they weren't aware of when initially taking the position?

again. They are also only human.

 

[Orion Bailey]

If you have the act on video, and keep the perp on video all the way until the arrest and demasking it doesn't matter what they wear.

This isn't a movie like "Now You See Me".


Slightly different crowd here. In a year of protesting I have yet to see a shamen with handcuffs trying to find a vegan sacrifice...


Once again, it doesn't matter if it's all on video...



Here's a city with the funds to fly a plane... Oh look, it's Portland. Now imagine if they had the body cams (which have been authorized and funded) to bring the whole picture together.

https://www.kgw.com/article/news/in...ests/283-1aab235b-092f-4430-ab17-632e8fb7c8a7



And you obviously didn't pay much attention to that link I sent about overhead surveillance, because the video isn't high enough resolution to see a face anyway. But it was used as evidence to catch and convict theives, murderers, etc when combined with video on the ground.



LOL. I'm not diplomatic enough to be a successful politician, I'm too honest. But thanks for the vote of confidence.

You're making the case that none of this is important enough to get on video, yet you've been in here complaining about it all year?

First i must say thank you for keeping the personal stuff out of this.

what id like to focus on is keeping them on camera the whole time.
Can you please explain in detail how that can realistically be done when one can run around a corner much faster than a drone can?

lets say a drone is in the air. It spies a person smashing a window and within 5 seconds of smashing, that person has run around the corner, down an alley and out of the immediate vicinity.
This happens before the drone video is viewed and a radio call is made to an undercover in the crowd.
By the time the undercover in the crowd gets word that a masked person in black smashed a window, that criminal is likely blocks away, no?

so im just not realistically seeing how they can maintain a video tracking without installing cameras on every building on every block?

and if we did that wouldn't that be very expensive?

 

[Phatguysrule]

First i must say thank you for keeping the personal stuff out of this.

what id like to focus on is keeping them on camera the whole time.
Can you please explain in detail how that can realistically be done when one can run around a corner much faster than a drone can?

lets say a drone is in the air. It spies a person smashing a window and within 5 seconds of smashing, that person has run around the corner, down an alley and out of the immediate vicinity.
This happens before the drone video is viewed and a radio call is made to an undercover in the crowd.
By the time the undercover in the crowd gets word that a masked person in black smashed a window, that criminal is likely blocks away, no?

so im just not realistically seeing how they can maintain a video tracking without installing cameras on every building on every block?

and if we did that wouldn't that be very expensive?

No problem at all. As long as we're sticking to what is actually being said there is nothing to call out.

The plane is high enough that it gets all sides of the building at the same time. There is no "going around thw corner" because all sides of every building in the vicinity are covered. And garages have video surveillance as well, so there is no escaping view that way.

Some of your plane clothes officers would be toward the front where the action is happening. Their job would be to see what is going on. This shouldn't be too much trouble if you have a dozen or so throughout the crowd. Getting to the places the where activity is ramping up.

You're not going to prevent every crime or or even apprehend every criminal who commits a crime. But you would eventually be able to get most of the trouble makers off of the streets.

Repeat offenders would get far more severe punishment, even a year in jail. There are only a few dozen to a hundred people "rioting" down there.

 

[Orion Bailey]

No problem at all. As long as we're sticking to what is actually being said there is nothing to call out.

The plane is high enough that it gets all sides of the building at the same time. There is no "going around thw corner" because all sides of every building in the vicinity are covered. And garages have video surveillance as well, so there is no escaping view that way.

Some of your plane clothes officers would be toward the front where the action is happening. Their job would be to see what is going on. This shouldn't be too much trouble if you have a dozen or so throughout the crowd. Getting to the places the where activity is ramping up.

You're not going to prevent every crime or or even apprehend every criminal who commits a crime. But you would eventually be able to get most of the trouble makers off of the streets.

Repeat offenders would get far more severe punishment, even a year in jail. There are only a few dozen to a hundred people "rioting" down there.

Does the government have control of the cameras in parking lots or is that private security surveillance and if so how would you feel about a law allowing the government to take over the live video at that time?(assuming thats what it would take)

what about the trees lining some streets that would block the aerial footage?

what do you think the cost would be to fly the drone for an 8 hour period and when should the aerial drone be activated? The day of? After a crowd gathers? How is night vision for a drone that far up since most of the criminal activity happens at night?

 

[Phatguysrule]

Does the government have control of the cameras in parking lots or is that private security surveillance and if so how would you feel about a law allowing the government to take over the live video at that time?(assuming thats what it would take)

what about the trees lining some streets that would block the aerial footage?

what do you think the cost would be to fly the drone for an 8 hour period and when should the aerial drone be activated? The day of? After a crowd gathers? How is night vision for a drone that far up since most of the criminal activity happens at night?

The police got the video from parking garages to figure out the shooting that happened down there. So I don't think a law needs to be made...

Yes, there is aerial night vision as well as flir thermal imaging.

8hrs of flying would cost under $2k and do the work of dozens of police officers.

Getting rid of the criminal element would save a ton of money in police overtime. But then, they wouldn't be able to hold that against the protesters anymore...

 

[Phatguysrule]

okay but did they know they woild have to deal with that at the time of acception a position as an officer?

i dont know. I dont beleive so but i dont know the training details.
How about ww should get more officers more training to deal with what they now have to deal with that they weren't aware of when initially taking the position?

again. They are also only human.

Yes. The police definitely need better training to deal with specific circumstances better.

That's what the protests are about.

 

[Orion Bailey]

The police got the video from parking garages to figure out the shooting that happened down there. So I don't think a law needs to be made...

Yes, there is aerial night vision as well as flir thermal imaging.

8hrs of flying would cost under $2k and do the work of dozens of police officers.

Getting rid of the criminal element would save a ton of money in police overtime. But then, they wouldn't be able to hold that against the protesters anymore...

but how is that real time analogy to maintain tracing of a masked person? I thought the idea was to have constant video surveillance? How will the undercover cop know which way the person exited the parking garage or is still hiding in it if they don't have access to the video at that time?
how does the aerial surveillance work with trees in the way, etc?
Im not following how that would work.

i still think it would be fairly easy to smash a window and get away based on what is being described, unless there are answers to the a over questions that im missing?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Yes. The police definitely need better training to deal with specific circumstances better.

That's what the protests are about.

yes the protests are. But the vandalism and criminal activity undermines it all.
Now don't take this as im saying the citizens should do the officers work, but if. I were a protestor wanting change i would put a stop to criminal activity asap or try to, as i would know it would undermine and minimize my efforts.

and thats what ive been saying all year.
Ive said it mant times that police need reform. On all levels.

But it doesn't make it right to do some of the things happening downtown. I just dont see two wrongs as a right. And regardless of the polices ability or inability id be pissed at people undermining my protest with criminal activity.

 

[Phatguysrule]

but how is that real time analogy to maintain tracing of a masked person? I thought the idea was to have constant video surveillance? How will the undercover cop know which way the person exited the parking garage or is still hiding in it if they don't have access to the video at that time?
how does the aerial surveillance work with trees in the way, etc?
Im not following how that would work.

i still think it would be fairly easy to smash a window and get away based on what is being described, unless there are answers to the a over questions that im missing?

No, the officers on the ground witness the crime as they do now, and make the arrest as they do now. The video gives them the evidence required to charge them.

 

[Phatguysrule]

yes the protests are. But the vandalism and criminal activity undermines it all.
Now don't take this as im saying the citizens should do the officers work, but if. I were a protestor wanting change i would put a stop to criminal activity asap or try to, as i would know it would undermine and minimize my efforts.

and thats what ive been saying all year.
Ive said it mant times that police need reform. On all levels.

But it doesn't make it right to do some of the things happening downtown. I just dont see two wrongs as a right. And regardless of the polices ability or inability id be pissed at people undermining my protest with criminal activity.

Nobody says two wrongs make a right. Nobody is supporting the destruction of businesses. Nobody is supporting the crime. They are pissed about it.

They try to stop it and try to help. But they are only citizens. And the protests to get change in the police training and responsibility is more important than the violence, theft and vandalism that is happening.

 

[Orion Bailey]

No, the officers on the ground witness the crime as they do now, and make the arrest as they do now. The video gives them the evidence required to charge them.

im confused then. How do the officers on the ground witness the crime?

i thought your point was to have cameras lead the cops to the criminals in a real time scenario?
I thought the point of the cameras was for evidence yes but to also track the criminals for the cops to know where they are?

Unless there are alot of undercover cops in the crowd i don't see how they will be able to witness the crimes first hand?

to me its not adding up. Can you let me know what im missing here?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Nobody says two wrongs make a right. Nobody is supporting the destruction of businesses. Nobody is supporting the crime. They are pissed about it.

They try to stop it and try to help. But they are only citizens. And the protests to get change in the police training and responsibility is more important than the violence, theft and vandalism that is happening.

okay but unless the tune has changed from many, this is simply not true.
There was lots of back and forth last year about both siders and if one complains aBout the vandalism one is on the wrong side and missing the point of the protests, etc.

Did the tune change and i missed it?
I mean i got blasted hard for supporting bad cops for bringing this up last year.
Called a both sider and ridiculed and demeaned by many on here.
what changed and why?

this, i hope in part at least, explains why im a bit edgy on all this and quick to snap back. ( not saying thats okay) Because for a year i was belittled here for bringing these things up.

 

[Phatguysrule]

im confused then. How do the officers on the ground witness the crime?

i thought your point was to have cameras lead the cops to the criminals in a real time scenario?
I thought the point of the cameras was for evidence yes but to also track the criminals for the cops to know where they are?

Unless there are alot of undercover cops in the crowd i don't see how they will be able to witness the crimes first hand?

to me its not adding up. Can you let me know what im missing here?

There have been thousands arrested. The thread is about people being arrested but not prosecuted. The video evidence would allow them to successfully prosecute more actual criminals, thereby removing them criminal element from the equation.

Hence less crime at the protests.

 

[Phatguysrule]

okay but unless the tune has changed from many, this is simply not true.
There was lots of back and forth last year about both siders and if one complains aBout the vandalism one is on the wrong side and missing the point of the protests, etc.

Did the tune change and i missed it?
I mean i got blasted hard for supporting bad cops for bringing this up last year.
Called a both sider and ridiculed and demeaned by many on here.
what changed and why?

this, i hope in part at least, explains why im a bit edgy on all this and quick to snap back. ( not saying thats okay) Because for a year i was belittled here for bringing these things up.

Focusing on the vandalism is petty compared to the reason for the protests. Focusing on any violence toward the police is not a great complaint because they are refusing to use the equipment they have been provided by the public to successfully convict people of breaking the law. There are enough videos of police abusing their power that we've lost the ability to take their word for it. No jury would convict a protester after seeing the videos of police brutality here in Portland, so it's pointless to charge them unless the police are providing rock solid evidence. Like video.

Supporting the police refusing to collect evidence opens you up to criticism.

Supporting this police behavior is really tough to understand. And if you don't support police brutality and abuse if the public you should be in support of the protests, encouraging police reform. So they will be better prepared.

If you don't have an opinion then you are a part of the problem.

I don't say that in a judging way, but as a matter of fact.

 

[RR7]

okay but unless the tune has changed from many, this is simply not true.
There was lots of back and forth last year about both siders and if one complains aBout the vandalism one is on the wrong side and missing the point of the protests, etc.

Did the tune change and i missed it?
I mean i got blasted hard for supporting bad cops for bringing this up last year.
Called a both sider and ridiculed and demeaned by many on here.
what changed and why?

this, i hope in part at least, explains why im a bit edgy on all this and quick to snap back. ( not saying thats okay) Because for a year i was belittled here for bringing these things up.

The issue last summer was that there was the appearance of many individuals here voicing a larger concern about vandalism than that of police brutality. Not specifically you. That there seemed to be a contingent that stayed relatively silent about the main issue of the protests, but then got very vocal when a store got their windows damaged. It wasn't that people were actively outright supporting the vandalism and damage, but more-so saying wait, why is THAT what you get up in arms about, but stay ho-hum on police brutality. I think as those disagreements continued, then you saw the responses of, so what, they have insurance, it can be fixed but murder can not.

It's not that people support the looting, violence, vandalism, etc., I think it's always been...why are you(not YOU, just in general) posting in a manner that makes it seem you're more concerned about smashed windows than police brutality.

 

[Orion Bailey]

The issue last summer was that there was the appearance of many individuals here voicing a larger concern about vandalism than that of police brutality. Not specifically you. That there seemed to be a contingent that stayed relatively silent about the main issue of the protests, but then got very vocal when a store got their windows damaged. It wasn't that people were actively outright supporting the vandalism and damage, but more-so saying wait, why is THAT what you get up in arms about, but stay ho-hum on police brutality. I think as those disagreements continued, then you saw the responses of, so what, they have insurance, it can be fixed but murder can not.

It's not that people support the looting, violence, vandalism, etc., I think it's always been...why are you(not YOU, just in general) posting in a manner that makes it seem you're more concerned about smashed windows than police brutality.

i can understand that but wouldnt there also be a flipside?

meaning, and im only speaking for myself, lots of people said what i felt and i liked their posts but didn't feel the need to repeat what had already been said.

But when the vandalism happened it seemed as though the same people were silent, so i think it prompted some people to say “okay, but what about this happening?”

To me it felt like everyone. Complaining aBout the cops was silent about the vandalism and that prompted people to speak up when the hadn't previously.

I know for me, thats accurate.
And i know you arent speaking specifically about me, but in this instance i am, because i was directly confronted with being a both sider and a killer cop supporter by more than one person here.
Even sly belittled me for it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Focusing on the vandalism is petty compared to the reason for the protests. Focusing on any violence toward the police is not a great complaint because they are refusing to use the equipment they have been provided by the public to successfully convict people of breaking the law. There are enough videos of police abusing their power that we've lost the ability to take their word for it. No jury would convict a protester after seeing the videos of police brutality here in Portland, so it's pointless to charge them unless the police are providing rock solid evidence. Like video.

Supporting the police refusing to collect evidence opens you up to criticism.

Supporting this police behavior is really tough to understand. And if you don't support police brutality and abuse if the public you should be in support of the protests, encouraging police reform. So they will be better prepared.

If you don't have an opinion then you are a part of the problem.

I don't say that in a judging way, but as a matter of fact.

So i understand you have provided info that there is funding for cameras.
Im sorry i do not have time today to open the link and read. Ill take your word for it. Do you know if it shows whether they have tried to get more cameras?

im asking because last year if they wanted cameras but didn't have them, they likely wouldn't have gotten them. Most mfgs were shut down( though i suppose the gvmt could have deemed camera makers as essential)

but now there is a shortage of everything. So even if they were trying to order cameras they would be a ways out.
So my point on that was if they didn't already have the cameras in place im not sure they could have got them up to do this on a large scale.
To the other point, at least for me, i never on e minimized the police abuse. I never once said cameras dont matter other than im not sure they would have the impact some think they would in this situation and circumstance. But in no way is that saying it doesn't matter.
Yet i recall two specific people who railed on me about both siding and supporting killer cops. And a few others that insinuated as much.
No big deal as long as we can communicate now without bashing one another for differences of opinions.
But there is no doubt i was judged pretty harshly based off of a few statements without a request for clarity prior to slamming the hammer down on me with a verdict.

Anyhow, Ive never once said cameras shouldn't be used and ive agreed with you they should be used. Ive said if cops are refusing to use them then they should be at a desk.

but all of this doesn't change the fact that many of the criminals are being protected in part by the protestors and that makes the job more difficult aNd is also considered aiding and abeding.

Then there is the over crowded issue. If cops arrested every protestor for aiding and abeding they wouldnt have room for everyone. So as a cop, what would you do and or feel if you knew that you could make the arrest but they will be back on the streets in 24 hours and right back at it again. Even with evidence to convict.

Maybe the laws should be more detailed? Vandalize a government building and its a misdemeanor, vandalize a privately owned building its a felony?


My main concern isn't the cops imo. Its the business owners of this town and the perception we are giving for businesses looking to potentially settle here.

there is responsibility to be had by all is all ive really ever said.

Edit: obviously the main concern are the victims of racist cops, etc. i meant between the cops and small business owners my main concern is....

 

[Phatguysrule]

So i understand you have provided info that there is funding for cameras.
Im sorry i do not have time today to open the link and read. Ill take your word for it. Do you know if it shows whether they have tried to get more cameras?

im asking because last year if they wanted cameras but didn't have them, they likely wouldn't have gotten them. Most mfgs were shut down( though i suppose the gvmt could have deemed camera makers as essential)

but now there is a shortage of everything. So even if they were trying to order cameras they would be a ways out.
So my point on that was if they didn't already have the cameras in place im not sure they could have got them up to do this on a large scale.
To the other point, at least for me, i never on e minimized the police abuse. I never once said cameras dont matter other than im not sure they would have the impact some think they would in this situation and circumstance. But in no way is that saying it doesn't matter.
Yet i recall two specific people who railed on me about both siding and supporting killer cops. And a few others that insinuated as much.
No big deal as long as we can communicate now without bashing one another for differences of opinions.
But there is no doubt i was judged pretty harshly based off of a few statements without a request for clarity prior to slamming the hammer down on me with a verdict.

Anyhow, Ive never once said cameras shouldn't be used and ive agreed with you they should be used. Ive said if cops are refusing to use them then they should be at a desk.

but all of this doesn't change the fact that many of the criminals are being protected in part by the protestors and that makes the job more difficult aNd is also considered aiding and abeding.

Then there is the over crowded issue. If cops arrested every protestor for aiding and abeding they wouldnt have room for everyone. So as a cop, what would you do and or feel if you knew that you could make the arrest but they will be back on the streets in 24 hours and right back at it again. Even with evidence to convict.

Maybe the laws should be more detailed? Vandalize a government building and its a misdemeanor, vandalize a privately owned building its a felony?


My main concern isn't the cops imo. Its the business owners of this town and the perception we are giving for businesses looking to potentially settle here.

there is responsibility to be had by all is all ive really ever said.

Edit: obviously the main concern are the victims of racist cops, etc. i meant between the cops and small business owners my main concern is....

The body cams have been approved and had funding for 2015 and 2016 (not sure why they didn't actually buy them, they had the funding). Then Wheeler put it on hold for some reason or other. Then in 2020 they were going to try again but the pandemic hit and blew a hole in the city budget.

Blaming the protesters is just a distraction. There is nothing we can do about the protesters behavior until we get the police straightened out. Anything else just encourages violating the rights of citizens and giving a police force that has proven to be unprepared and brutal too much power.

If we want the perception that we have a good area, safe for business owners and their clients, then we need to get our police department to get their act together. It starts with the police commissioner, obviously. Which is why it will take the kind of public pressure they're getting now. That's more important than businesses right now. It needs to be fixed. And it will take a concerted effort to do it.

I'm sorry, but I can't answer for other posters. I'm always good for a chat, and if I feel somebody throws shade my way I usually send it right back. Unfortunately I've not learned that kind of self control and it can lead to misunderstandings spiraling out of control.

My apologies for my part in that.

 

[jlprk]

I skimmed the last boring page of this thread in about 15 seconds. It appears to be a friendly debate between right-wingers as to how to most efficiently make Portland right-wing.

 

[Lanny]

okay but did they know they woild have to deal with that at the time of acception a position as an officer?

i dont know. I dont beleive so but i dont know the training details.
How about ww should get more officers more training to deal with what they now have to deal with that they weren't aware of when initially taking the position?

again. They are also only human.

I'm sure they had training but yet training gets ignored all the time. They don't belong on the force.
Didn't you ever see Serpico?

 

[Orion Bailey]

The body cams have been approved and had funding for 2015 and 2016 (not sure why they didn't actually buy them, they had the funding). Then Wheeler put it on hold for some reason or other. Then in 2020 they were going to try again but the pandemic hit and blew a hole in the city budget.

Blaming the protesters is just a distraction. There is nothing we can do about the protesters behavior until we get the police straightened out. Anything else just encourages violating the rights of citizens and giving a police force that has proven to be unprepared and brutal too much power.

If we want the perception that we have a good area, safe for business owners and their clients, then we need to get our police department to get their act together. It starts with the police commissioner, obviously. Which is why it will take the kind of public pressure they're getting now. That's more important than businesses right now. It needs to be fixed. And it will take a concerted effort to do it.

I'm sorry, but I can't answer for other posters. I'm always good for a chat, and if I feel somebody throws shade my way I usually send it right back. Unfortunately I've not learned that kind of self control and it can lead to misunderstandings spiraling out of control.

My apologies for my part in that.

hey man none of us are perfect. Im just glad your able to have such self awareness.
Im much the same as you have likely noticed.
And ditto. My apologies as well.

im glad we could get back to a sense of civility in our discussions.
Trust me. I may not agree with everything you say. But i wouldnt be so strong on engaging if i didnt respect your posts and thoughts overall.

Think of it as an “ hardest on the ones we love” type of thing.

Anyhow i still have a little doubt as to the success of the camera scenario but again. They should be used and if it does work nearly foolproof, great. Ill be the first to eat crow.
I might not always think im wrong but when i know i am, I've always owned up to it.

 

[Orion Bailey]

I'm sure they had training but yet training gets ignored all the time. They don't belong on the force.
Didn't you ever see Serpico?

haah. Believe it or not. The closest ive come to seeing Serpico was last week watching an episode of always sunny in Philadelphia where Charlie tried to be a Serpico detective. al Pacino right?

anyhow. Im not sure police have had training in maintain composure standing in line while the civilians you swore to protect verbally berate them.
Maybe they have.
Either way, no matter the training, it cant be easy.

 

[Lanny]

haah. Believe it or not. The closest ive come to seeing Serpico was last week watching an episode of always sunny in Philadelphia where Charlie tried to be a Serpico detective. al Pacino right?

anyhow. Im not sure police have had training in maintain composure standing in line while the civilians you swore to protect verbally berate them.
Maybe they have.
Either way, no matter the training, it cant be easy.

Al Pacino. Maybe his best movie.

Serpico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpico

 

[Phatguysrule]

hey man none of us are perfect. Im just glad your able to have such self awareness.
Im much the same as you have likely noticed.
And ditto. My apologies as well.

im glad we could get back to a sense of civility in our discussions.
Trust me. I may not agree with everything you say. But i wouldnt be so strong on engaging if i didnt respect your posts and thoughts overall.

Think of it as an “ hardest on the ones we love” type of thing.

Anyhow i still have a little doubt as to the success of the camera scenario but again. They should be used and if it does work nearly foolproof, great. Ill be the first to eat crow.
I might not always think im wrong but when i know i am, I've always owned up to it.

It won't be near fool proof, but it will be better. And as you are catching the bad ones and keeping them locked up longer, with video evidence, you will hopefully start to see violence taper off.

It's not a guarantee, but it's just maddening that simple things like this are not being tried while every police officer down there (not to mention every protester) literally carries a camera in their pocket all day every day.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Al Pacino. Maybe his best movie.

Serpico
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpico

Is it anything like Scarface?

 

[Orion Bailey]

It won't be near fool proof, but it will be better. And as you are catching the bad ones and keeping them locked up longer, with video evidence, you will hopefully start to see violence taper off.

It's not a guarantee, but it's just maddening that simple things like this are not being tried while every police officer down there (not to mention every protester) literally carries a camera in their pocket all day every day.

I just reread that and It sounds like I was just saying i'm self aware like you. Just to be clear, though I believe I am fairly self aware, I was speaking more so on the lack of discipline part, if you hadn't noticed.

Didn't read right to me.

 

[Phatguysrule]

I just reread that and It sounds like I was just saying i'm self aware like you. Just to be clear, though I believe I am fairly self aware, I was speaking more so on the lack of discipline part, if you hadn't noticed.

Didn't read right to me.

Yeah I got it. We're good.

 

[Lanny]

Is it anything like Scarface?

No

 

[Orion Bailey]

No

Well you really sold that one Lanny!

 

[Lanny]

Well you really sold that one Lanny!

Sorry, sometimes I respond robot like fashion. I guess that's the engineer in me coming out.
While there is violence it's not like the violence in Scarface. And there's no one trying to build an empire. It's just a lonely guy trying to do the right thing. It is a true story about a true Frank Serpico who is shown, just as he was, at the end of the movie. If you like Al Pacino you'll love Serpico. Truly a heart wrenching story.