Ms. Keeton, The KKK, And All That Jazz............

[barfo]

All I'm saying is there is a case to be made on the other side/POV. It seems a little prejudiced against the religious types who need counselling.

How is training counselors how to counsel gays in any way prejudiced against the religious types who need counseling?

barfo

 

[andalusian]

What's the point of this counselling anyway? And why shouldn't the person who needs counselling feel most free to talk about his or her issues?

Who said they should? I just do not understand why someone needs to be worried about talking to a gay counselor about his issues - and I suspect that a good counselor, if there is a conflict of interests - would steer said student to someone that can help him.

The issue at hand, was, and still is, that Ms. Keeton does not seem to accept the ethical standards required for the job - I would expect a good counselor to observe these standards no matter what his sexual preferences are - and if they do that - there should be no issue what-so-ever.

 

[julius]

All I'm saying is there is a case to be made on the other side/POV. It seems a little prejudiced against the religious types who need counselling.

I would venture a bet that virulent anti-religious people would run into issues at becoming counselors anyways. So there would be adequate counselors for those of us (in the country/world) who are religious.

 

[Minstrel]

It seems a little prejudiced against the religious types who need counselling.

You still really haven't said how. You've just vaguely suggested that maybe requiring counselors to be able to serve the needs of everyone, including gays, might be prejudiced towards people who don't believe that counselors should be required to serve the needs of everyone, including gays.

You're definitely free to feel that way, hazy as the feeling may be. But you certainly haven't provided any reasoning for why that would be the case.

 

[ABM]

You're definitely free to feel that way, hazy as the feeling may be. But you certainly haven't provided any reasoning for why that would be the case.

I've been waiting for someone to give me a "real school" example whereby Ms. Keeton's personal views would necessarily prevent her from unprofessional in a counseling environment. Again, IMO, there's an automatic "assumption" being made here by ASU. Tried and convicted well before the fact.

 

[agoo]

I may not have been as upfront about it as I could have been. If Ms. Keeton views homosexuality as a cureable illness or a behavior that can be "corrected", then she's unfit to counsel. Everything that I have read has been slanted in favor of Ms. Keeton so I don't know exactly what the case against her entails, aside from one thing.

It does mention that she spoke in favor of conversion therapy for homosexual clients to her fellow students. Testing shows that its ineffective and harmful to clients and it also doesn't address anything that needs "fixing" as homosexuality hasn't been seen as a mental illness since the early 70's.

Basically, if she fails to accept homosexuality as a viable and nondisordered lifestyle, she cannot be a counselor under the ACA Code of Ethics.

I'm not really sure how to give a specific example, but the ACA article I referenced in the other thread on the topic does present a hypothetical where a client asks for conversion therapy and the ACA created ethical counselor refuses to do it and tries to talk the client out of wanting it because it is harmful. Ultimately, if the client insists, the counselor does find a conversion therapist for the client.

 

[barfo]

I've been waiting for someone to give me a "real school" example whereby Ms. Keeton's personal views would necessarily prevent her from unprofessional in a counseling environment. Again, IMO, there's an automatic "assumption" being made here by ASU. Tried and convicted well before the fact.

I assume you mean "prevent her from being professional".

The point isn't that her views are necessarily incompatible with being professional. No doubt there are many competent practicing counselors who share her religious viewpoint.

The issue is what she's going to do as a counselor, and I think there is reason to worry about that:

Plaintiff admitted to me that in a counseling situation where a client discloses to her that he/she is gay, it is Plaintiff's intention to tell the client that their behavior is morally wrong and then help the client 'change' that behavior. Plaintiff admitted further that if she were not successful in helping this hypothetical client 'change', she would refer him/her to someone practicing conversion and reparative therapy.

That's from the document I linked earlier in this thread, the judge's report from August/Augusta.

Assuming the claim is true, it would appear that she intends to act unprofessionally.

barfo

 

[ABM]

Assuming the claim is true, it would appear that she intends to act unprofessionally.

barfo

Keeton's side debunked that particular claim.

 

[barfo]

Keeton's side debunked that particular claim.

How, exactly, did they do that? Do they have a recording of the conversation?

Actually, they didn't do that at all. They presented no witnesses, no testimony at the hearing. They debunked nothing.

barfo

 

[ABM]

How, exactly, did they do that? Do they have a recording of the conversation?

Actually, they didn't do that at all. They presented no witnesses, no testimony at the hearing. They debunked nothing.

barfo

Not sure..

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...claims-school-bias-on-christian-views/?page=2

Miss Keeton told faculty members that she never communicated anything about "conversion therapy," although she expressed to other students her religious beliefs on GLBTQ issues.

 

[barfo]

Not sure..

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...claims-school-bias-on-christian-views/?page=2

So she and several of the witnesses disagree. Maybe the students and faculty are all out to get her because she's a Christian.

Yeah, that's believable. Georgia is really hostile territory to Christians? That's why you fled?

barfo

 

[ABM]

So she and several of the witnesses disagree. Maybe the students and faculty are all out to get her because she's a Christian.

Yeah, that's believable. Georgia is really hostile territory to Christians? That's why you fled?

barfo

Uh huh.

 

[Denny Crane]

But it was only the religious who continued to believe it after it was scientifically disproven.



So you are in favor of not providing services to gays because they are a minority of the population? Interesting.

barfo

I'm in favor of having the appropriate number of counselors who can deal with gay peoples' issues as needed. Sheesh.

 

[Denny Crane]

You still really haven't said how. You've just vaguely suggested that maybe requiring counselors to be able to serve the needs of everyone, including gays, might be prejudiced towards people who don't believe that counselors should be required to serve the needs of everyone, including gays.

You're definitely free to feel that way, hazy as the feeling may be. But you certainly haven't provided any reasoning for why that would be the case.

If the counselors advertise "specializing in gay's and lesbian's issues" then they should be advertising "specializing in christians'" issues. The qualifications for one may not be the same as for the other.

 

[Minstrel]

If the counselors advertise "specializing in gay's and lesbian's issues" then they should be advertising "specializing in christians'" issues. The qualifications for one may not be the same as for the other.

This assumes that Christians have needs so specialized that there's a call for such counselors. Homosexuals are a somewhat persecuted minority; Christians aren't. While that doesn't prove conclusively that one might need specialized counselors and the other wouldn't, there is a pretty significant difference between the two groups, so it's not clear, a priori, that both groups need the same attention.

 

[agoo]

There are specialized Christian Counseling programs offered that give you a Masters specifically in that topic. I never was interested in them, so I don't know much about it, but I would guess that it is some sort of a hybrid between a typical counseling program and a degree in ministry.

I'm not sure if there is one for counseling homosexual clients or if there is a certificate program.

 

[ABM]

There are specialized Christian Counseling programs offered that give you a Masters specifically in that topic. I never was interested in them, so I don't know much about it, but I would guess that it is some sort of a hybrid between a typical counseling program and a degree in ministry.

I'm not sure if there is one for counseling homosexual clients or if there is a certificate program.

To me, it's just unfortunate that she won't be able to attend a more affordable state institution due to their seemingly intolerant stance(s) regarding her personal convictions.

Ahh, well........

 

[agoo]

They're being intollerant of an intollerant stance that leads them to believe that she is not capable of fulfilling the ethical responsibilities of the job. I'm cool with that. If they were just booting Christians from the program, that would be an issue. This is not.

 

[barfo]

If the counselors advertise "specializing in gay's and lesbian's issues" then they should be advertising "specializing in christians'" issues. The qualifications for one may not be the same as for the other.

And because there are gay bars, there should be Christian bars?

I'd think it would be up to individual counselors how they advertise their services. If someone thinks it would be advantageous to them to advertise as specializing in Christians, I imagine they'd do that.

But the topic is school counselors here, not rent-a-counselors.

barfo

 

[barfo]

I'm in favor of having the appropriate number of counselors who can deal with gay peoples' issues as needed. Sheesh.

Which is one, unless that one is Ms. Keeton. Are you advocating hiring an additional public employee to make up for her deficiencies?

barfo

 

[agoo]

Actually, its not necessarily one. I got my masters in counseling to continue onward in the Higher Education field, but had I gone into counseling, I wouldn't be capable from day one of working with the LGBT population despite being more aware of and understanding of the issues than some of my classmates. Any group with specialized needs would require specific training and experience of a counselor before they could list it as a specialization when advertising their services. A good generalist could help them out just fine, but a good generalist would also know when to refer them on to a specialist in that area. Given the constraints on the school environment, a good generalist is probably a best case scenario, so hopefully they could link up with local counseling providers to bridge some of the gaps involved.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

It is very fitting that a hate group like the KKK supports this cause. Hopefully this makes anyone believing that homosexuality is a choice rethink that stance.

 

[Denny Crane]

Which is one, unless that one is Ms. Keeton. Are you advocating hiring an additional public employee to make up for her deficiencies?

barfo

First rule of govt. is "why buy one when you can have two for 3x the price?"

 

[oldmangrouch]

You know, it isn't really that complicated.

If she wants to be a counselor in private practice, she can serve whoever she wants. If she wants to be a *school* counselor, part of the job description is the willingness/ability to deal with everybody. Either this women is too dumb to grasp that distinction, or she is a fraud and a troll trying to stir up controversy.

 

[ABM]

They're being intollerant of an intollerant stance that leads them to believe that she is not capable of fulfilling the ethical responsibilities of the job. I'm cool with that. If they were just booting Christians from the program, that would be an issue. This is not.

Again, please give me an example of a potentially real-life situation whereas her personal convictions would preclude her from doing an effective job. Provided, of course, that she acted professionally.

For the umpteenth time, I believe these ASU folks are making far too many assumptions that Ms. Keeton won't have what it takes to be an adequate counselor. But, really, is the gay/lesbian piece really that much of an issue in our schools....whereas a counselor has to be keenly insightful in order to handle correctly?

I get that Ms. Keeton has these deep, personal convictions. What I don't get is that she's being prematurely discriminated against.

 

[agoo]

I can't do what you're asking because the ASU faculty are suggesting that she's not capable of acting in a professional ethical manner as prescribed by the ACA Code of Ethics. Their entire implication is that she would tell homosexual clients that they are wrong for being homosexual and that she views it as a disordered lifestyle that needs fixing.

ASU's case is that Ms. Keeton would have a client come out to her and that she would attempt to make them change.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

For the umpteenth time, I believe these ASU folks are making far too many assumptions that Ms. Keeton won't have what it takes to be an adequate counselor. But, really, is the gay/lesbian piece really that much of an issue in our schools....whereas a counselor has to be keenly insightful in order to handle correctly?

For the umpteenth time:

Professors asked Keeton to complete the remediation plan after she said she opposed homosexuality and would tell gay clients "their behavior is morally wrong and then help the client change that behavior," according to an affidavit filed in the case.

I get that Ms. Keeton has these deep, personal convictions.

Deep personal convictions that are scientifically wrong and the world can do without.

 

[ABM]

I can't do what you're asking because the ASU faculty are suggesting that she's not capable of acting in a professional ethical manner as prescribed by the ACA Code of Ethics. Their entire implication is that she would tell homosexual clients that they are wrong for being homosexual and that she views it as a disordered lifestyle that needs fixing.

ASU's case is that Ms. Keeton would have a client come out to her and that she would attempt to make them change.

Then, that would constitute unprofessionalism on Ms. Keeton's part.

Hence, the lawsuit.................which she'll lose, BTW.

Whatever.

 

[ABM]

For the umpteenth time:

Read post #40.

 

[Charcoal Filtered]

Read post #40.

"I have, on a few occasions, shared my biblical convictions and views in assignments in class discussions and with other students," Miss Keeton says in a video clip provided by the Alliance Defense Fund.

Faculty members also were concerned about Miss Keeton's conversations outside the classroom, according to the lawsuit. They received reports from another student that Miss Keeton "has relayed her interest in conversion therapy for GLBTQ populations, and she has tried to convince other students to support and believe her views," according to the legal documents provided by Alliance Defense Fund.

In reply, she asked them how her Christian convictions are any less acceptable than those of a Buddhist or Muslim student, to which one faculty member replied, "Christians see this population as sinners," court papers show.

"While I want to stay in the school counseling program, I know that I can't honestly complete the remediation plan knowing that I would have to alter my beliefs," said Miss Keeton. "I'm not willing to and I know I can't change my biblical views."

It kills me that christians are claiming the high road on this one. The university is merely asking her to not discriminate against a huge population.