Ms. Keeton, The KKK, And All That Jazz............

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your god seems like a real bastard, if you ask me. Because some nitwit a long time ago made a mistake, children are born with disabilities, or people can't have kids?

What a real tool.


I've probably tortured many of my responses here and in other threads in which I've attempted to explain myself. For that, I'm sorry.

That said, I've said many of the same things about God that you've just related. However, there was a point in my life when I quit running from Him. For that, I'm forever grateful...and I mean that sincerely and wholeheartedly.
 
Not if they don't have a choice, they can't.

You're equating choice with innate.

It's my innate nature to prefer women. But I have the ability to have relations with men. I chose not to, because it's not my preference.

Since I purposely left the other thread because it was turning into a big circular argument, I don't know if you answered this. But what do you say about couples who don't have sexual relations for procreation? Or have sexual relations that aren't of the intercourse kind (fellatio, a handy or up the pooper)?

Are they sinners?

You seem to be setting the precedent that all sex must be done for procreation and nothing else. Because if that's what god intended (and why homosexuality is wrong), then doing it for other reasons would seemingly be wrong too.

if it's not your thing (it's not my thing), I get that. But for someone who doesn't have a problem with it, you sure are arguing a lot about it.

How does it hurt YOU personally?

Is it because she was Christian? What if she wasn't, and just was saying stupid things about gays or whatever? What if she said she refused to serve Christians or Muslims or Jews? Those ARE choices you make in life.

I cannot, under any circumstances "chose" to be gay. I can, however, chose to be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist or whatever. Seems like those are more likely life style choices, and in a lot of cases, those people sin a LOT more than a gay person does.
 
Now, this is by no means about you. I'm just talking how I'd want to live my life here. But whenever I hear of my family jokingly tell me not to eat some fatty, greasy, hamburger, I always say that I'd rather die early with a smile on my face than to live long with a frown on my face. Same thing when I'm offered booze. I'd rather be a miserable human than a drunken monkey.

I'd love to have a coke, or such, with you sometime. We'd probably share a few laughs.
 
I've probably tortured many of my responses here and in other threads in which I've attempted to explain myself. For that, I'm sorry.

That said, I've said many of the same things about God that you've just related. However, there was a point in my life when I quit running from Him. For that, I'm forever grateful...and I mean that sincerely and wholeheartedly.

I am happy that you have found some kind of inner peace, or whatever. I'm being sincere when I say that. I found my "peace" when I came to the realization that judging others, based on a book that was written thousands of years before anyone I know was born, was silly. Basing how I view others through the eyes of people who on one hand told me to love my neighbor and (in essence) not throwing stones and on the other hand telling me that XYZ are sins (and in some cases, really stupid out-dated and illogical things would be sins), and on the third hand, "love the sinner, hate the sin", just became tiresome.

There is far too much hatred coming out of religion and religious people (who have ruined it for the majority of normal religious people).
 
You're equating choice with innate.

It's my innate nature to prefer women. But I have the ability to have relations with men. I chose not to, because it's not my preference.

Since I purposely left the other thread because it was turning into a big circular argument, I don't know if you answered this. But what do you say about couples who don't have sexual relations for procreation? Or have sexual relations that aren't of the intercourse kind (fellatio, a handy or up the pooper)?

Are they sinners?

You seem to be setting the precedent that all sex must be done for procreation and nothing else. Because if that's what god intended (and why homosexuality is wrong), then doing it for other reasons would seemingly be wrong too.

if it's not your thing (it's not my thing), I get that. But for someone who doesn't have a problem with it, you sure are arguing a lot about it.

How does it hurt YOU personally?

Is it because she was Christian? What if she wasn't, and just was saying stupid things about gays or whatever? What if she said she refused to serve Christians or Muslims or Jews? Those ARE choices you make in life.

I cannot, under any circumstances "chose" to be gay. I can, however, chose to be Muslim, Jewish, Christian, Buddhist or whatever. Seems like those are more likely life style choices, and in a lot of cases, those people sin a LOT more than a gay person does.

Like I said above, I've probably tortured some of my explanations. Obviously, I did this one.

Nonetheless, the Bible is unequivocal regarding homosexual behavior. Therefore, how can God "create" someone to be gay when He clearly states that the behavior is a sin?
 
However, there was a point in my life when I quit running from Him.

Why was he chasing you? Does god chase all sinners, or just you? Why didn't he just turn you into a pillar of salt or a sloth or something easy to catch? How far did you run? Didn't your legs get tired, or were you in really good shape from all the running?

Religion sure is complicated, I guess.

barfo
 
I am happy that you have found some kind of inner peace, or whatever. I'm being sincere when I say that. I found my "peace" when I came to the realization that judging others, based on a book that was written thousands of years before anyone I know was born, was silly.

The Bible is also clear that judging others is sinful. It states that we're "all" sinners in one manner or another. Only God is the true judge. Thankfully, though, there's Jesus as an advocate (go-between), should we choose Him.
 
Oh we definitely choose to be gay, I mean it's loads of fucking fun.

It's so we can get the fa-bomb dropped on us, or just heard it said multiple times a day by people (hell, if I play a game or go to an uncensored forum I can hear or read it up to 50-100 times in a few hours, imagine how many times young kids who choose to be gay hear it). It's to hear things like, "wow how fucking gay", or "you're such a fucking queer".

It's so we can be assaulted and raped just for being gay, but hey definitely our choice. We choose to be gay so we, along with other minorities, can be society's punchline in all media related things. Who doesn't want to be the fabulous sidekick on a tv show? Reinforce those stereotypes by loving and being involved in fashion or being an auto mechanic in your favorite show or movie? Man, we only dream of that growing up - waiting to choose so we can experience such prestigious roles. JK Rowling actually chose to make Dumbledore gay after the books were done just because she realized hey, what a fucking outstanding thing that would be and not because parent groups would have gone apeshit if she had dropped the "D's a capital g Gay" in the books.

Those young boys that killed themselves? Definitely chose to be gay, but only mentioned it because they knew they were going to off themselves and wanted to leave society in a mess of that 'gay situation'. What little rascals those boys were. Matthew Shepard? Kid chose to be gay so he could be beaten near death then fucking left to die looking like a scarecrow on some country road fence. I guess in hindsight, real fucking poor choice on his part. Oh well!

We choose to be gay for comparisons to bestiality, to be called pedophiles, and to be said to be actively trying to destabilize America and its youth. We choose to be gay so some people of political parties can use us, and some of others can just plain say we're not a valid or functioning option for living or success. We choose to be gay while attending private religious schools that our parents sometimes send us - so we can hear how we're going to Hell, to be demonized, and to be told we need to pray for other gays (that of course chose to be gay).

I personally chose to be gay so I could see Schizophrenia and homosexuality compared, because that isn't horrifyingly insulting and offensive to both homosexuals and Schizophrenics. I mean, homosexuals definitely have a chance to murder people without realizing it because they hear or see things they can't control, and it isn't like Schizophrenia should be a respected and properly discussed disease as should all mental illness. It's not like we have a problem in our country or the world where true, debilitating mental illnesses are swept under the rug or nonchalantly ignored. Can properly discuss every physical illness and injury we can see or scan, but gotta be all hush hush with the mental illnesses or make them into a bad parody/joke.

I think some of my fellow gays chose to be gay so they could get fired from their jobs if they came out, where they couldn't acknowledge their loved one for fear of consequences. Where they have to keep it hush hush so they don't lose out on roles.

Man, I bet trans men and women choose to be that way so they can be thrown under the bus by both sides and humiliated, to actually be laughed at by doctors and nurses when they go in to the ER. I bet bisexuals choose to be bi so they can be called sluts, what a fucking honor that is - I might change to that after considering it.

So many fucking perks man, I can't even count. There is that one little downfall of first-cousin incest being legal in more states than our gay-choosing marriage is allowed, but oh well. Hundreds of perks to that one little negative, definitely worth it in my opinion. If only more heterosexuals kept choosing to join us in our fucking gay-fabulous lifestyle.

Maybe I'll convert a few. Let me get my gay-guide to recruiting, there's even a toaster involved for you.
 
Why was he chasing you? Does god chase all sinners, or just you?

No, but He's always calling us to follow Him. I finally saw the light. :)
 
Therefore, how can God "create" someone to be gay when He clearly states that the behavior is a sin?

Dude, he's all powerful. He can do anything, right?

barfo
 
The Bible is also clear that judging others is sinful. It states that we're "all" sinners in one manner or another. Only God is the true judge. Thankfully, though, there's Jesus as an advocate (go-between), should we choose Him.

If that is true (who judges who, etc), and she believed it to be true, she wouldn't have had a problem counseling anyone.
 
Oh we definitely choose to be gay, I mean it's loads of fucking fun.

It's so we can get the fa-bomb dropped on us, or just heard it said multiple times a day by people (hell, if I play a game or go to an uncensored forum I can hear or read it up to 50-100 times in a few hours, imagine how many times young kids who choose to be gay hear it). It's to hear things like, "wow how fucking gay", or "you're such a fucking queer".

It's so we can be assaulted and raped just for being gay, but hey definitely our choice. We choose to be gay so we, along with other minorities, can be society's punchline in all media related things. Who doesn't want to be the fabulous sidekick on a tv show? Reinforce those stereotypes by loving and being involved in fashion or being an auto mechanic in your favorite show or movie? Man, we only dream of that growing up - waiting to choose so we can experience such prestigious roles. JK Rowling actually chose to make Dumbledore gay after the books were done just because she realized hey, what a fucking outstanding thing that would be and not because parent groups would have gone apeshit if she had dropped the "D's a capital g Gay" in the books.

Those young boys that killed themselves? Definitely chose to be gay, but only mentioned it because they knew they were going to off themselves and wanted to leave society in a mess of that 'gay situation'. What little rascals those boys were. Matthew Shepard? Kid chose to be gay so he could be beaten near death then fucking left to die looking like a scarecrow on some country road fence. I guess in hindsight, real fucking poor choice on his part. Oh well!

We choose to be gay for comparisons to bestiality, to be called pedophiles, and to be said to be actively trying to destabilize America and its youth. We choose to be gay so some people of political parties can use us, and some of others can just plain say we're not a valid or functioning option for living or success. We choose to be gay while attending private religious schools that our parents sometimes send us - so we can hear how we're going to Hell, to be demonized, and to be told we need to pray for other gays (that of course chose to be gay).

I personally chose to be gay so I could see Schizophrenia and homosexuality compared, because that isn't horrifyingly insulting and offensive to both homosexuals and Schizophrenics. I mean, homosexuals definitely have a chance to murder people without realizing it because they hear or see things they can't control, and it isn't like Schizophrenia should be a respected and properly discussed disease as should all mental illness. It's not like we have a problem in our country or the world where true, debilitating mental illnesses are swept under the rug or nonchalantly ignored. Can properly discuss every physical illness and injury we can see or scan, but gotta be all hush hush with the mental illnesses or make them into a bad parody/joke.

I think some of my fellow gays chose to be gay so they could get fired from their jobs if they came out, where they couldn't acknowledge their loved one for fear of consequences. Where they have to keep it hush hush so they don't lose out on roles.

Man, I bet trans men and women choose to be that way so they can be thrown under the bus by both sides and humiliated, to actually be laughed at by doctors and nurses when they go in to the ER. I bet bisexuals choose to be bi so they can be called sluts, what a fucking honor that is - I might change to that after considering it.

So many fucking perks man, I can't even count. There is that one little downfall of first-cousin incest being legal in more states than our gay-choosing marriage is allowed, but oh well. Hundreds of perks to that one little negative, definitely worth it in my opinion. If only more heterosexuals kept choosing to join us in our fucking gay-fabulous lifestyle.

Maybe I'll convert a few. Let me get my gay-guide to recruiting, there's even a toaster involved for you.

imho, the implication that being gay is a "choice", suggests that they believe being gay is an mental illness or something. Someone "seeks" out negative behavior, etc.

Total twaddle.
 
The better question is "why" would He?

why wouldn't he?

If we're going to ask why he "would" do it, why would he chose to make people mentally retarded? or physically handicapped?
 
The better question is "why" would He?

Because he's random and capricious, at least according to the stories you believe in.

barfo
 
If that is true (who judges who, etc), and she believed it to be true, she wouldn't have had a problem counseling anyone.

I believe she said that she would/could counsel with compassion, she just wasn't gonna be pigeon-holed into a certain line of thinking. For that matter, aren't counselors supposed to be more listeners as opposed to subjecting others to their way of thinking? I thought the best counselors helped others kind of figure things out for themselves.
 
Because he's random and capricious, at least according to the stories you believe in.

barfo

And we'll never really, I mean, really, know...this side of....
 
Because he's random and capricious, at least according to the stories you believe in.

barfo

capricious?

what does being an astronomer have to do with anything?
 
imho, the implication that being gay is a "choice", suggests that they believe being gay is an mental illness or something. Someone "seeks" out negative behavior, etc.

Total twaddle.

When I hear choice, I take it as someone of sound mind is choosing to be gay to enjoy a 'lifestyle choice'. A mental illness is not something where choice is involved in its main diagnosis, in my opinion.

Which is why when I hear things like what ABM says so often in this thread and the other, it feels like my nerves and sanity are having a cheese grater slid over them.
 
I believe she said that she would/could counsel with compassion, she just wasn't gonna be pigeon-holed into a certain line of thinking.

funny that she said that, considering she has pigeon holed herself into a certain line of thinking, and refusing to open herself up to a different opinion than her own.

For that matter, aren't counselors supposed to be more listeners as opposed to subjecting others to their way of thinking? I thought the best counselors helped others kind of figure things out for themselves.

If she refuses to believe that being gay is an innate thing, she can't really help others "figure things out" for themselves.
 
That said, the Bible is extremely clear on acts of homosexuality. In all actuality, it's really moot for me to think it would be cruel of God to do anything. He'll do exactly what He wants.

Sorry to burst your bubble (or is it burst your bible) - but the bible most certainly is not clear about it - as shown with the David and Jonathan story. The bible, as it often does, contradicts itself.
 
When I hear choice, I take it as someone of sound mind is choosing to be gay to enjoy a 'lifestyle choice'. A mental illness is not something where choice is involved in its main diagnosis, in my opinion.

Sorry, I meant to say that it's their way of saying it's a mental illness if it's not a "choice"
 
Actually, it does make sense. God has given us all the ability to choose Him. If homosexuality is not a choice - ever, then God naturally becomes a liar.

If you follow the bible you already know that the bible calls God a liar. First the Jews were the chosen people, but later they are not. He either lied - or he is a flip-flopper.

Again, the bible just loves to contradict itself.
 
Which is why when I hear things like what ABM says so often in this thread and the other, it feels like my nerves and sanity are having a cheese grater slid over them.

I'm very sorry you feel that way, TSE. Trust me, I've had my share of living my life completely by another set of standards. I live an entirely different life now. I don't hate you. I don't hate gays. I don't hate transvestites, or anyone else for that matter. I simply believe what the Bible tells me and try and love/accept others as I'd want to be loved/accepted.
 
If you follow the bible you already know that the bible calls God a liar. First the Jews were the chosen people, but later they are not. He either lied - or he is a flip-flopper.

Again, the bible just loves to contradict itself.

You'd almost think the bible was written for political purposes....
 
I'm very sorry you feel that way, TSE. Trust me, I've had my share of living my life completely by another set of standards. I live an entirely different life now. I don't hate you. I don't hate gays. I don't hate transvestites, or anyone else for that matter. I simply believe what the Bible tells me and try and love/accept others as I'd want to be loved/accepted.

So if you treat others as you want to be treated, why do you support someone who says something as trivial as who they spend their nights with (which is absolutely none of your or my business) is a bad person?
 
Sorry to burst your bubble (or is it burst your bible) - but the bible most certainly is not clear about it - as shown with the David and Jonathan story. The bible, as it often does, contradicts itself.

There are different types of love related in the Bible. Theirs was (philia) "brotherly" love. Not an eros (sexual) type of love. Then, there's agape love, which is a Christ-like love. That's the type of love we should be extending to our fellow-man/women.
 
You'd almost think the bible was written for political purposes....

Political? If Politics = Power - than yes, that's exactly what I believe happened.

I believe in creationism, man created god to explain whatever he could not explain otherwise - and later, man used god's name to gain power - as man does with just about anything else. If there is a god, and I have no clue if there is or is not, I have no doubts in my mind that he/she/it is nothing like what the scriptures tell us.
 
I'm very sorry you feel that way, TSE. Trust me, I've had my share of living my life completely by another set of standards. I live an entirely different life now. I don't hate you. I don't hate gays. I don't hate transvestites, or anyone else for that matter. I simply believe what the Bible tells me and try and love/accept others as I'd want to be loved/accepted.

You might be sorry but you'll still do things that make me and other homosexuals feel this way. I don't think you understand how humiliating it can be being gay, especially as a young kid. I don't think you understand how harmful things like "well, it's a lifestyle choice" are to people. I think you, and many others, underestimate the amount of shit gay people get, how often and how soon people start dropping "fucking queer, how fucking gay, what a god damn fa-bomb". How that fucking burns you inside, and makes you feel so shamed. When we've done nothing wrong but live.

Where we're told we're pushing an agenda by simply showing affection to our loved ones, and on a smaller scale than our heterosexual counterparts. When having a couple of mainstream gay characters on tv leads to fucking CNN publishing a poll asking "is there too much gay on tv?". Do you understand how that hurts? Do you understand how it rips out a part of you when even liberal states vote no on gay marriage? When that may be the most public issue, it is just one of many where we get treated as less?

You can believe what the Bible teaches you, I don't mind. I come from a very religious family, I understand religion and why people follow it. I understand it helps guide people and gives them peace in their life and an inner calm.

I also understand why some people of religion use all these things to deny other legal and consenting adults of their rights, and that isn't cool. I'm not trying to tell you your religion is bad, that you don't deserve rights, that your issues aren't really that big of a deal if they just make up a certain percentage of population or when you're treated bad you're just sensationalizing it.

But a lot of people like you tell me those things. They tell young gay kids those things, and young gay kids don't need that shit. They don't need to be told they chose something that gets them ridiculed and beaten. They don't need to be told that not coming out is keeping something secret, as if it is something you should be ashamed of rather than the real reason most people who stay in the closet: absolute fear of losing friends, jobs, family, and their personal safety.

The amount of self-hatred such things puts in a young person growing up, a young person who may not feel they have someone they can talk to, or are terrified they'll run into a counselor like this Ms. Keeton, is.. overwhelming. Overwhelming is the only word I can use, and it is not even adequate enough.
 

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