Politics My libertarian view on banning abortion

[dviss1]

If one believes that Abortion is Murder then:

Every time there is an abortion someone dies because of it. It is a 100% death rate.

When someone owns an assault rifle, someone does not die. It is a very small percentage of total available assault rifles that result in death.

That is the answer to your question.

Abortion is not murder.

 

[calvin natt]

My viewpoints are biblical based. God's law says thou shall not murder, but it also contains capital punishment, so I believe both can exist. Guns are not a biblical issue, so if we ban guns that is fine. The Bill of Rights is not the Bible. The Bible is also clear about helping your neighbor (the Good Samaritan), so we should be looking out for each other, considering each others health. Whether the government should pay for that, that is up for debate.

My point is, you can hold some of the viewpoints listed, but don't have to hold to all. Not all Christians are staunch Republicans. Any association that a Christian has to be a Republican and hold Republican values is flat wrong - not Biblical.

Wait the Bible says love thy neighbor? I thought it said gay people are horrible. That’s some tough love I suppose

 

[dviss1]

I agree on your observation about men having abortions if places were switched, for sure. It still doesn't change my viewpoint that I believe we should be fighting for the life of these children.

And to your first point, I actually am indifferent to it actually being a law. I would rather see each individual make the choice to choose life, not have to be forced into the choice by a law.

They aren't children.

 

[dviss1]

That is where we differ. I believe the Bible is God's Word. God has given us his commands through His Word. We don't need a law from the US government to obey God (and not murder).

Read the first amendment then get back to me.

Then when you do that, ask yourself if someone like me who was raised baptist christian even WANTS to believe in the god of Abraham.
You know, the god who commanded RAPE in the bible?? You want me to follow that God?? You know, the one that from the beginning of us puts woman in a subservient role?
She was born of a man's rib and some dirt?

I will NEVER serve a god who commands this:

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves. -- Numbers 31:15-18

Keep alive to do what???

How would they know if a woman had sex before without doing a physical inspection to determine if she has a Hymen???

WOMEN CHILDREN???????

Soooooo, keep your god. Keep your man made book. And tell all the rest of those ZEALOTS this:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

 

[calvin natt]

When can you start using the spermbaby as a tax deduction? I mean, if it’s December and the human being is the size of a raisin it’s still a person right? So claim it on your taxes people

 

[trailblazer18]

Wait the Bible says love thy neighbor? I thought it said gay people are horrible. That’s some tough love I suppose

It does say love your neighbor. That phrase, "gay people are horrible," is not found. I love ALL people and am compelled to share the Gospel with ALL people.

 

[donkiez]

That is where we differ. I believe the Bible is God's Word. God has given us his commands through His Word. We don't need a law from the US government to obey God (and not murder).

Thats great, you can believe in that all you want as long as your beliefs dont infringe on my rights then I am happy for you and the happiness that you find in your beliefs.

Personally I believe all religions are equally stupid and I dont want to live in the christian version of Iran because some people think that gods word needs to be incorporated into law. Laws need to be dictated by common sense not religions. Our founding fathers gave us freedom of religion and that also extends to freedom from religion. Common sense states that abortions are a necessary part of civilized societies. If you believe they are wrong then just dont have them, or do something that makes them less necessary in society like supporting education, and public resources like planned parent hood. Dont outlaw them or say that people need to be more godly and avoid sex, that is just silly and against human nature.

 

[EL PRESIDENTE]

When can you start using the spermbaby as a tax deduction? I mean, if it’s December and the human being is the size of a raisin it’s still a person right? So claim it on your taxes people

You can.

 

[UncleCliffy'sDaddy]

I was born, reared and educated a Catholic, and while I haven’t been a “practicing” Catholic for decades, there is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that abortion is murder. I am entitled to that belief. However, as a Catholic we were taught that God gave each of us a conscience and a free will. We are all free to make choices in life and we will all be held accountable for those choices at the end of that life. I can judge all I want but I don’t believe it is my right to interfere with another individual’s choices. It’s God’s place to judge them when they meet him/her (and if someone doesn’t believe in God, that is their problem, not mine). I can’t walk in their shoes. They have to make their own choices and to live (and die) with the results. It’s like playing Russian Roulette. You don’t know what the outcome will be until you pull the trigger. I prefer not to pull the trigger.

 

[dviss1]

My viewpoints are biblical based. God's law says thou shall not murder

If you have freedom of religion you also have freedom FROM religion. The first amendment protects us from "God's law".

It ain't american and our founders were NOT Christian.

 

[dviss1]

I was born, reared and educated a Catholic, and while I haven’t been a “practicing” Catholic for decades, there is absolutely NO doubt in my mind that abortion is murder. I am entitled to that belief. However, as a Catholic we were taught that God gave each of us a conscience and a free will. We are all free to make choices in life and we will all be held accountable for those choices at the end of that life. I can judge all I want but I don’t believe it is my right to interfere with another individual’s choices. It’s God’s place to judge them when they meet him/her (and if someone doesn’t believe in God, that is their problem, not mine). I can’t walk in their shoes. They have to make their own choices and to live (and die) with the results. It’s like playing Russian Roulette. You don’t know what the outcome will be until you pull the trigger. I prefer not to pull the trigger.

98% of Catholic women use birth control.

 

[Chris Craig]

It does say love your neighbor. That phrase, "gay people are horrible," is not found. I love ALL people and am compelled to share the Gospel with ALL people.

No...just the decimimation of Sodom and Gamorrah. Two cities of gay people.

The word abortion is not in the bible either

 

[trailblazer18]

If you have freedom of religion you also have freedom FROM religion. The first amendment protects us from "God's law".

It ain't american and our founders were NOT Christian.

As mentioned, I agree with your viewpoint. If you don't believe in Jesus, I seem like a fool and the Bible seems foolish as you explained previously.

 

[dviss1]

As mentioned, I agree with your viewpoint. If you don't believe in Jesus, I seem like a fool and the Bible seems foolish as you explained previously.

No, I do believe in Jesus. I just don't believe he's a God nor that he was immaculately conceived. Even your bible says that. There are many passages in the bible that deflate the whole Trinitarian bull.

Here's one:

John 5:16 KJV
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 5:16 NIV
In his defense Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.

The Catholic Church left out the Gospel of Mary and tried to paint her as a whore when she was really Jesus' WIFE.

 

[trailblazer18]

No...just the decimimation of Sodom and Gamorrah. Two cities of gay people.

The word abortion is not in the bible either

Judgement came to Sodom and Gomorrah because the actions of the people violated God's law. Yes, God's law does say homosexual acts are an abomination. That is God's Word, as stated previously. I love ALL people, no matter their actions. You may see it as a conflict, I get that.

 

[dviss1]

You talk about your bible's law but don't know about it's law on rape??? It parses the SHIT out of rape just like these fucking republicans...

City Rape Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die;
the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. --

Country Rape Deuteronomy 22:25-27

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. --

Of an un-betrothed virgin Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife;
because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. --

My question is this:

Why the HELL are people so hell bent on living their lives by a book written thousands of years ago by men who threw rocks at their wives if they were raped?

 

[trailblazer18]

No, I do believe in Jesus. I just don't believe he's a God nor that he was immaculately conceived. Even your bible says that. There are many passages in the bible that deflate the whole Trinitarian bull.

Here's one:

John 5:16 KJV
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 5:16 NIV
In his defense Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I too am working.

The Catholic Church left out the Gospel of Mary and tried to paint her as a whore when she was really Jesus' WIFE.

Apologies, we differ on the deity of Jesus then. And so our differences of opinions makes sense. There definitely are different theological views, particularly about the trinity.

 

[dviss1]

Judgement came to Sodom and Gomorrah because the actions of the people violated God's law. Yes, God's law does say homosexual acts are an abomination. That is God's Word, as stated previously. I love ALL people, no matter their actions. You may see it as a conflict, I get that.

No that law was written by a man. The book is man made... It also calls tattoos an abomination too...

If God does exist, HE CREATED GAY PEOPLE...

Here I thought God doesn't make mistakes...

 

[dviss1]

Here's the bottom fucking line for Christians trying to insert their belife system whilst simultaneously inventing the BULLSHIT that there's a war on Christianity:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion,
or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press;
or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Why do Christians want to FORCE people to live by their laws?

They don't even know that a Yule Tree is a PAGAN tradition... Jesus wasn't even born in December.

 

[trailblazer18]

You talk about your bible's law but don't know about it's law on rape??? It parses the SHIT out of rape just like these fucking republicans...

City Rape Deuteronomy 22:23-24

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die;
the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city. --

Country Rape Deuteronomy 22:25-27

But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her. --

Of an un-betrothed virgin Deuteronomy 22:28-29

If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife;
because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days. --

My question is this:

Why the HELL are people so hell bent on living their lives by a book written thousands of years ago by men who threw rocks at their wives if they were raped?

I am well aware of the laws contained in the Bible. You are referencing Old Testament laws. When Jesus died on the cross and rose again, he fulfilled the law. We have a new covenant with God through Jesus. The Old Testament laws fall under different categories, and we are not subject to all of the OT laws now.

 

[Minstrel]

The Old Testament laws fall under different categories, and we are not subject to all of the OT laws now.

Do you feel you are subject to any of the Old Testament laws? If so, which and what separates them from the ones that are no longer valid?

Relatedly, is a judgment on homosexuality mentioned in the New Testament?

 

[dviss1]

I am well aware of the laws contained in the Bible. You are referencing Old Testament laws. When Jesus died on the cross and rose again, he fulfilled the law. We have a new covenant with God through Jesus. The Old Testament laws fall under different categories, and we are not subject to all of the OT laws now.

Exactly.

So that means it means nothing to be gay. Absolutely nothing.

Jesus new covenant has 2 commandments

Love each other and Love God.

That's it. He never said one thing bad about Homosexuality. NOT one.

As a matter of fact Jesus said you are more apt to be RAPTURED if you are gay:

Luke 17:34-35 King James Version (KJV)
34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

 

[dviss1]

Do you feel you are subject to any of the Old Testament laws? If so, which and what separates them from the ones that are no longer valid?

Is a judgment on homosexuality mentioned in the New Testament?

See my post above.

 

[Chris Craig]

That is where we differ. I believe the Bible is God's Word. God has given us his commands through His Word. We don't need a law from the US government to obey God (and not murder).

I understand this view completely. If you don't believe Jesus is God, the Bible and His teachings don't make much sense and of course you don't want laws to dictate your choice. I agree with that. So my issue is actually not with abortion itself. If people would believe in Jesus and put their faith in him and continue to strive to be obedient, things like abortion would become less and less. With that said, even Christians know we are all sinners and even though Christ has claimed victory, we are in an "already, not yet" stage. We are not perfected yet and there is still sin in this world.

Sorry for the rambling. My main point is your explanation makes perfect sense to me, and I know my viewpoint doesn't make sense to most, if they don't believe in Jesus as well.

I believe in God. I believe Jesus existed. I also believe in what the commandments ask...of what the stories of Jesus ask us. To be good people. To care. To love one another. Not to do horrible despicable things.

I also believe that the Bible is a book that was written by men 2000-3000 years ago in order to percipitate fear and instill obediance and therefore control.

There is sin everywhere. Everyone is a sinner. Human beings can never be perfect. It is a made up word. Yes, we have free will and can ultimately decide to do good, but we are curious and impulsive. God made us in his image not in his abilities.

So I believe in God. I am spiritual but I am not religious. I don't believe abortion is murder or that bible or God have ever said that is.

 

[riverman]

I believe whatever gives you and those around you the greatest joy...practice that..there are wonderful things to apply to one's life from theology...just don't let it control our ability to listen outside that box.

 

[trailblazer18]

Before getting too deep in a discussion about the law, let me make this point. It is not about obeying God's law so anyone can win God's approval. We are only saved by God's Grace of His choosing. We can do nothing on our own accord to win favor with God. That being said, obeying/striving to obey God's laws is proof that Christ is in you.

Ceremonial laws do not apply. Moral laws still apply (ex: the ten commandments).

 

[trailblazer18]

Do you feel you are subject to any of the Old Testament laws? If so, which and what separates them from the ones that are no longer valid?

Relatedly, is a judgment on homosexuality mentioned in the New Testament?

Paul mentions homosexuality in the New Testament.

 

[dviss1]

I believe whatever gives you and those around you the greatest joy...practice that..there are wonderful things to apply to one's life from theology...just don't let it control our ability to listen outside that box.

That's a hard one for serial Killers tho...

 

[Chris Craig]

Why is there no tbou shalt not be gay in the 10 commandments if God was so against it? Thou shalt not have abortions?

 

[trailblazer18]

I just want to say. I respect everyone in here and your beliefs. I will not and do not hate anyone if we have differing views. I appreciate the conversation. I am not a wordsmith, so hopefully will not stumble in my responses.