My Obamacare Taxes

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BrianFromWA said:
They're not even remotely close to the same circumstances. "Society" does not get its values from legislation. Whether the military budget signed by Congress denotes Overseas Contingency Operations funding or not has no bearing on whether the society wants troops overseas. The Commander-in-Chief can send troops anywhere he wants to with or without Congressional approval, support, legislation, etc. It's apples to volkswagens. However, when society has deemed that they want to be isolationist the army is drawn down and congress doesn't fund overseas operations or research or war plans. I don't understand why you keep bringing up "polling" as if numbers in a survey denote societal values, yet refuse to answer the question about soda in NYC, which is a real-life counterexample to what you and barfo think is happening.
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No idea what you mean by that. What is it that I think is happening that the soda thing contradicts? As far as I can see, all I've said is that the elected representatives make the laws, which is what happened (apparently) in NYC. That they made the law is a fact (I assume).

barfo
 
barfo said:
No idea what you mean by that. What is it that I think is happening that the soda thing contradicts? As far as I can see, all I've said is that the elected representatives make the laws, which is what happened (apparently) in NYC. That they made the law is a fact (I assume).

barfo
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You said that b/c the elected representatives made the laws (in this case PPACA), then society's values have changed to reflect that ("we wish now to subsidize with taxpayer money the exorbitant health care fees for all, and mandate an insurance middleman"). I disputed that, and said that legislators voting on something (especially that they hadn't read and didn't understand) had no bearing on what the values of society were. As an example, I then pointed out Bloomberg's new law about soda, and asked if 26 people voting that soda was illegal meant that NYC "society" now thought that was the case, and instead of saying "yeah, I see your point" you said that 10M people never agree on anything.

Then I asked if there was ever another law in the US that was passed without reading in a purely partisan vote (R or D) that changed "society"'s values.
 
Tittle. It's cute how some believe employer taxes don't get passed on to: a) their customers; and b) the employees in lower pay increases over time.
 
BrianFromWA said:
You said that b/c the elected representatives made the laws (in this case PPACA), then society's values have changed to reflect that ("we wish now to subsidize with taxpayer money the exorbitant health care fees for all, and mandate an insurance middleman").
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No, you said that. What you put in quotes there is your words, not mine.

I disputed that, and said that legislators voting on something (especially that they hadn't read and didn't understand) had no bearing on what the values of society were. As an example, I then pointed out Bloomberg's new law about soda, and asked if 26 people voting that soda was illegal meant that NYC "society" now thought that was the case, and instead of saying "yeah, I see your point" you said that 10M people never agree on anything.

Then I asked if there was ever another law in the US that was passed without reading in a purely partisan vote (R or D) that changed "society"'s values.
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Plenty of laws have been passed on purely partisan votes. Not sure that's relevant. As for changing "society's values", I'm not sure why you think this law changed society's values. I certainly didn't claim it did.

barfo
 
maxiep said:
Tittle. It's cute how some believe employer taxes don't get passed on to: a) their customers; and b) the employees in lower pay increases over time.
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Tittle? No one suggested employer taxes don't get passed on. However, in this particular case, the employer taxes can be avoided completely by changing the healthcare plan to comply with the standards, so that's the most likely outcome. After all, healthcare is an employee benefit, and if that benefit suddenly started costing the employee a lot more, the employee would value it less. Tittle.

barfo
 
Your words were:
barfo post #99 said:
We as a society have decided that it isn't right to let someone die just because they weren't continuously insured. Yes, providing healthcare to the ill costs healthy people money. Providing healthcare to the poor costs wealthier people money.
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I said that we hadn't decided that at all, that Obama and a partisan congress that didn't read the law did. I then asked if Bloomberg and 26 councilmen passed the "large soda" bill, if that meant that the 10M members of NYC society had decided that soda was now illegal and you said:
barfo #108 said:
Yes. They voted for those people to represent them and make laws for them. That's the way our government works.
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This derailed b/c you wrote (maybe you didn't mean it?) the quote in post 99, and I said that that wasn't the case at all. Minstrel said that I must not be a fan of America, and you said that that's how the government works--if the government passes a bill, then that changes society's values (charging other taxpayers to subsidize uninsurable health care or sodas becoming illegal).
 
3RA1N1AC said:
definitely not the worst ever
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Yes, I do miss Burgerville now that I'm living up here in British Columbia!!

My wife and I had a baby girl eight months ago. To segway, I'm a US Citizen and married a Canadian. I moved up here about five years ago. Now back to my beautiful little baby girl....

We paid a grand total of $600. plus or minus. And this was because we chose to pay an ugrade to a private suite. We did not pay one red cent more. Our annual cost (family of four) for our health plan is $1,280. I said "annual."

Forget what you may have heard about long waits, etc. We have our family doctor. We can phone and make an appointment. If she is unable to see us, we can walk-in to the clinic (group of doctors she's partnered with) and be seen within an hour. And after hours, if we are not feeling well, we can drive over to the Emergency Room - wait anywhere from 30 minutes to 90 minutes and be seen/treated - - at NO COST. None.

While I am a registered Independent, I voted Republican in every election. So I'm no liberal. What I have learned by living in Canada is this: The Government sees healthcare as an obligation to its people. Not welfare...healthcare. The result, from what I see (not having statistics in front of me) is that the people view healthcare as preventative medicine. In other words, without the worry of co-pays or having to pay 20% or more of the bill if you are hospitalized, people go to the doctor's office before they feel like they are about to die. They can go when they are simply not feeling well. And I think this results in a healthier society.

The healthcare machine is so huge and so broken in America, I'm not sure if the Canadian model would ever work, let alone be able to be established. Not unless the existing system were to be blown up.

And as far as illegals go - - if you do not carry a "Care Card" in your wallet, you must then pay for services. While Canada is indeed liberal, if you happen to be here illegally, they eventually come find you and deport you. It is simple. And you cannot apply for and receive your Care Card unless you have proof that you are a Citizen or a Permanent Resident.

My Sister and Brother-in-law and neice, who live in the 'Couv: He's self-employed and my Sis works part-time. Their insurance coverage (with a huge deductible) is costing them over $1,300. per month! And God help them if they actually do get hospitalized.

Just not fair. Not American
 
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BoomChakaLaka said:
Yes, I do miss Burgerville now that I'm living up here in British Columbia!!

My wife and I had a baby girl eight months ago. To segway, I'm a US Citizen and married a Canadian. I moved up here about five years ago. Now back to my beautiful little baby girl....

We paid a grand total of $600. plus or minus. And this was because we chose to pay an ugrade to a private suite. We did not pay one red cent more. Our annual cost (family of four) for our health plan is $1,280. I said "annual."

Forget what you may have heard about long waits, etc. We have our family doctor. We can phone and make an appointment. If she is unable to see us, we can walk-in to the clinic (group of doctors she's partnered with) and be seen within an hour. And after hours, if we are not feeling well, we can drive over to the Emergency Room - wait anywhere from 30 minutes to 90 minutes and be seen/treated - - at NO COST. None.

While I am a registered Independent, I voted Republican in every election. So I'm no liberal. What I have learned by living in Canada is this: The Government sees healthcare as an obligation to its people. Not welfare...healthcare. The result, from what I see (not having statistics in front of me) is that the people view healthcare as preventative medicine. In other words, without the worry of co-pays or having to pay 20% or more of the bill if you are hospitalized, people go to the doctor's office before they feel like they are about to die. They can go when they are simply not feeling well. And I think this results in a healthier society.

The healthcare machine is so huge and so broken in America, I'm not sure if the Canadian model would ever work, let alone be able to be established. Not unless the existing system were to be blown up.

And as far as illegals go - - if you do not carry a "Care Card" in your wallet, you must then pay for services. While Canada is indeed liberal, if you happen to be here illegally, they eventually come find you and deport you. It is simple. And you cannot apply for and receive your Care Card unless you have proof that you are a Citizen or a Permanent Resident.

My Sister and Brother-in-law and neice, who live in the 'Couv: He's self-employed and my Sis works part-time. Their insurance coverage (with a huge deductible) is costing them over $1,300. per month! And God help them if they actually do get hospitalized.

Just not fair. Not American
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Having other people pay for your stuff is cool.

Just remember, what the government "gives", the government can take away.
 
BrianFromWA said:
Your words were:
I said that we hadn't decided that at all, that Obama and a partisan congress that didn't read the law did. I then asked if Bloomberg and 26 councilmen passed the "large soda" bill, if that meant that the 10M members of NYC society had decided that soda was now illegal and you said:


This derailed b/c you wrote (maybe you didn't mean it?) the quote in post 99, and I said that that wasn't the case at all. Minstrel said that I must not be a fan of America, and you said that that's how the government works--if the government passes a bill, then that changes society's values (charging other taxpayers to subsidize uninsurable health care or sodas becoming illegal).
Click to expand...

Nope. I did not say that "if the government passes a bill, then that changes society's values". I said nothing of the sort.

All I said was that the way we make decisions as a society is via our elected officials. That's just a description of our system of government and I'm puzzled as to what your issue with it might be.

barfo
 
maxiep said:
Having other people pay for your stuff is cool.

Just remember, what the government "gives", the government can take away.
Click to expand...

That's right. It may be a better system, much cheaper with better results. But because there is some chance it might someday go away due to some unforeseen circumstance, we shouldn't consider it. After all, our current system is guaranteed to last forever. Well, except for those unsustainable cost increases, that is...

barfo
 
barfo said:
Nope. I did not say that "if the government passes a bill, then that changes society's values". I said nothing of the sort.

All I said was that the way we make decisions as a society is via our elected officials. That's just a description of our system of government and I'm puzzled as to what your issue with it might be.

barfo
Click to expand...

We as a society seceded to be 10% gay, even though govt. made laws against it.

You and minstrel seem to prefer an elite 535+1 be our rulers and to define society.
 
BrianFromWA said:
They're not even remotely close to the same circumstances. "Society" does not get its values from legislation.
Click to expand...

You're constructing a strawman. I never said that society gets its values from legislation. I said that what the legislative and executive branch do are actions by society, because society elected those people to speak for and act for society, as a whole.

yet refuse to answer the question about soda in NYC, which is a real-life counterexample to what you and barfo think is happening.
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I didn't refuse to answer that, I thought that you posed the question to barfo, not me. If you'd like me to answer it, I will. Yes, of course that ban on sodas over a certain size is societal action. For exactly the reason I laid out above. It's in no way a counter-example.
 
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I couldn't get through all of the terrible logic being used in this thread.

Can somebody give a summary?

Is barfo is trying to argue that taxes won't increase to pay for obamacare?
 
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