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<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Look where he is playing...The whole team plays below average defense therefore players look like defensive liabilities, i.e. Amare. Have you ever watched a D'Antoni interview when asked about defense? He deflects the question or answers it with a statement about offense. You can't blame Amare for poor team defense.

(Steve Nash and Mike D'ntoni are not defensive minded, Shaq is too old and slow to help much, and Leondro Barbosa and Raja Bell only work the perimeter)</div>

You realize this argument has serious flaws, don't you? First off, you talk about the team and Amare as if they're entirely separate entities. Also, the fact that there are other defensive liabilities on the roster doesn't say anything one way or the other about him specifically. And Shaq's arrival pushed him to pf, where he's supposed to be better.
</div>

I'm just saying when the team basically gives up 120 pts every night can you really point the finger at one guy. I think he can be a good defender if he wants to, yes he does have trouble against guys like Al Jefferson and Tim Duncan but don't you think he takes a little too much heat. I'm not saying hes going to shut down anybody but to call him liability is a just unfair.

Also 29 pts-10 rebs over the last two months, that doesn't make up for whatever mistakes he makes?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 10 2008, 09:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I don't like Josh Howard at SG. You and Pegs should trade him for Joe Johnson straight up.</div>

I would but Pegs wouldn't do it.

Unless pegs would in that case pegs get at me.

I think Howard fits better alongside Pierce. I also got Kevin Love out of it too.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JFizzleRaider @ Aug 10 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 07:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Come on, you guys know that blocks and rebounds don't measure a player's defense. Positioning, poorly timed fouls, performances by the the players he guards do.</div>

definitely agree
</div>

Yea, I'm sick of hearing "he averaged 2 blocks so he's a good defender."
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Am I the only person who paid attention while Amare averaged 29/10/2 in the final 2 months of the season?</div>

28/8.7/1.5
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 10 2008, 11:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (JFizzleRaider @ Aug 10 2008, 11:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 07:35 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Come on, you guys know that blocks and rebounds don't measure a player's defense. Positioning, poorly timed fouls, performances by the the players he guards do.</div>

definitely agree
</div>

Yea, I'm sick of hearing "he averaged 2 blocks so he's a good defender."
</div>

lets look at the guys who average 2 blocks last year

1. Marcus Camby, DEN 3.61
2. Josh Smith, ATL 2.80
3. Chris Kaman, LAC 2.77
4. Samuel Dalembert, PHI 2.34
5. Dwight Howard, ORL 2.15
6. Amare Stoudemire, PHO 2.06
7. Yao Ming, HOU 2.02
Tim Duncan, SAS 1.95

All of these guys are considered top defenders in the NBA except who- Amare. So for everybody but Amare if you average 2 blcks a game ur a good defender
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 10 2008, 11:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 11:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Am I the only person who paid attention while Amare averaged 29/10/2 in the final 2 months of the season?</div>

28/8.7/1.5
</div>

In Feb and March he averaged 29-10-2 my bad i didnt count April because there were only 7 games
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 11:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Look where he is playing...The whole team plays below average defense therefore players look like defensive liabilities, i.e. Amare. Have you ever watched a D'Antoni interview when asked about defense? He deflects the question or answers it with a statement about offense. You can't blame Amare for poor team defense.

(Steve Nash and Mike D'ntoni are not defensive minded, Shaq is too old and slow to help much, and Leondro Barbosa and Raja Bell only work the perimeter)</div>

You realize this argument has serious flaws, don't you? First off, you talk about the team and Amare as if they're entirely separate entities. Also, the fact that there are other defensive liabilities on the roster doesn't say anything one way or the other about him specifically. And Shaq's arrival pushed him to pf, where he's supposed to be better.
</div>

I'm just saying when the team basically gives up 120 pts every night can you really point the finger at one guy. I think he can be a good defender if he wants to, yes he does have trouble against guys like Al Jefferson and Tim Duncan but don't you think he takes a little too much heat. I'm not saying hes going to shut down anybody but to call him liability is a just unfair.

Also 29 pts-10 rebs over the last two months, that doesn't make up for whatever mistakes he makes?
</div>

Of course it does, but there are reasons Garnett gets picked well ahead of Amare, and a lot of it has to do with d. I'm not saying Amare's not a terrific player and will be for several years. But at center, he is definitely a liability, and at pf, he's still not very good. It's not just Big Al and TD- he also has trouble against guys like Brendan Haywood and Chris Wilcox.

And come on, you can't seriously be arguing that blocks make someone a good defender.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually offered pegs, Josh Howard and my 10th for Joe Johnson and Peg's 12th. Pegs said "not even close". But than I really lucked out and got Pierce and a 7th for Love and Howard. I knew you guys didn't like Howard as an Sg so I got a real SG.

Right now my team is a lot like the real Celtic's big three except younger.

PG- Bibby
SG- Pierce
SF- G.Wallace
PF- Amare</div>

In a sense, Amare's only half the player KG is, but with Wallace instead of Allen, Amare's defensive liabilities are less important and his superior ability to step up in important moments is more important.
</div>

Funny you bring that up. Lets look at there "clutch stats" per 48 min:
(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

Lets compare Amare to lets say Dwight Howard

Amare: 39.8 points
Dwight: 13.8 points

Amare: 50% fg
Dwight: 43.8 fg%

Amare: 20.9 fta
Dwight: 13.1 fta
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 11 2008, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And come on, you can't seriously be arguing that blocks make someone a good defender.</div>

I know there are other aspects to the game that determines defense, but please tell me you're joking?
 
And come on, you can't seriously be arguing that blocks make someone a good defender.
[/quote]

blocking numbers do make people think twice about attacking the paint and it develops a defensive presence

It should give you some respect as a defender. I never heard of anybody averaging 2 blocks a game being called a bad defender.

But I accept the fact Amare needs to work on defense but please don't call him a liability
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:06 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 11 2008, 12:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>And come on, you can't seriously be arguing that blocks make someone a good defender.</div>

I know there are other aspects to the game that determines defense, but please tell me you're joking?
</div>

No?
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually offered pegs, Josh Howard and my 10th for Joe Johnson and Peg's 12th. Pegs said "not even close". But than I really lucked out and got Pierce and a 7th for Love and Howard. I knew you guys didn't like Howard as an Sg so I got a real SG.

Right now my team is a lot like the real Celtic's big three except younger.

PG- Bibby
SG- Pierce
SF- G.Wallace
PF- Amare</div>

In a sense, Amare's only half the player KG is, but with Wallace instead of Allen, Amare's defensive liabilities are less important and his superior ability to step up in important moments is more important.
</div>

Funny you bring that up. Lets look at there "clutch stats" per 48 min:
(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

Lets compare Amare to lets say Dwight Howard

Amare: 39.8 points
Dwight: 13.8 points

Amare: 50% fg
Dwight: 43.8 fg%

Amare: 20.9 fta
Dwight: 13.1 fta
</div>

First off, we're having a nice debate- let's avoid telling lwp what he can't call a player.
Secondly, my point was that Amare is better in the clutch than KG- not because I know anything special about Amare, but because KG is pretty bad in big moments.
Thirdly, let's go back to 82games and throw some defensive stats in- opposing players averaged 16.7 pp48 (henceforth, "points") against Dwight. PF's averaged 17.1 points against KG, and C's 15.3 points. Against Amare, PF's averaged 26.1 points, and C's 23.9 points. Recall that the other part of my point was that Amare is worse at defense than KG.
 
Blocks make a person a good defender. Slapping the shot away from the basket is defense. We can say that there are other qualifications of a good defender, but one does not need to have all of them to be regarded as someone who is effective on that side of the floor; it's not all-inclusive. Jason Collins is a good post defender, Bruce Bowen is a good perimeter defender, Marcus Camby is a good shot blocker. As you can see there are many ways to keep an offensive player from scoring, and many different ways to be good at that; blocking a shot might be the simplest way of keeping a shot from scoring.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Blocks make a person a good defender. Slapping the shot away from the basket is defense. We can say that there are other qualifications of a good defender, but one does not need to have all of them to be regarded as someone who is effective on that side of the floor; it's not all-inclusive. Jason Collins is a good post defender, Bruce Bowen is a good perimeter defender, Marcus Camby is a good shot blocker. As you can see there are many ways to keep an offensive player from scoring, and many different ways to be good at that; blocking a shot might be the simplest way of keeping a shot from scoring.</div>

As a counterpoint, I offer Amare Stoudamire.


Edit: Because that was snarky, I'll point out that you bring up examples of good defenders who don't block, and while it can be an important component of one's overall defense, if you suck at all kinds of other stuff but are good at blocking shots, you still suck defensively.
 
Al Jefferson averages 1.5 blocks per game. Is he a good defender?


*waits for Cpaw to get settled and come and chime in on Camby*
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 11 2008, 12:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually offered pegs, Josh Howard and my 10th for Joe Johnson and Peg's 12th. Pegs said "not even close". But than I really lucked out and got Pierce and a 7th for Love and Howard. I knew you guys didn't like Howard as an Sg so I got a real SG.

Right now my team is a lot like the real Celtic's big three except younger.

PG- Bibby
SG- Pierce
SF- G.Wallace
PF- Amare</div>

In a sense, Amare's only half the player KG is, but with Wallace instead of Allen, Amare's defensive liabilities are less important and his superior ability to step up in important moments is more important.
</div>

Funny you bring that up. Lets look at there "clutch stats" per 48 min:
(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

Lets compare Amare to lets say Dwight Howard

Amare: 39.8 points
Dwight: 13.8 points

Amare: 50% fg
Dwight: 43.8 fg%

Amare: 20.9 fta
Dwight: 13.1 fta
</div>

First off, we're having a nice debate- let's avoid telling lwp what he can't call a player.
Secondly, my point was that Amare is better in the clutch than KG- not because I know anything special about Amare, but because KG is pretty bad in big moments.
Thirdly, let's go back to 82games and throw some defensive stats in- opposing players averaged 16.7 pp48 (henceforth, "points") against Dwight. PF's averaged 17.1 points against KG, and C's 15.3 points. Against Amare, PF's averaged 26.1 points, and C's 23.9 points. Recall that the other part of my point was that Amare is worse at defense than KG.
</div>

hey amare does not give up 26.1 and 23.9. what year are you looking at?


He gives up 23.2 agaisnt power forwards per 48 and and 21.3 agaisnt centers per 48. But... he averages like 31 pts a game per 48 so IMO thats a pretty damn good plus minus
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 11 2008, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sean Williams is an awesome shot blocker. Is he a good defender?


MULTI-POSTS FTW</div>

No, but Amare Stoudamire is.
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 11 2008, 12:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually offered pegs, Josh Howard and my 10th for Joe Johnson and Peg's 12th. Pegs said "not even close". But than I really lucked out and got Pierce and a 7th for Love and Howard. I knew you guys didn't like Howard as an Sg so I got a real SG.

Right now my team is a lot like the real Celtic's big three except younger.

PG- Bibby
SG- Pierce
SF- G.Wallace
PF- Amare</div>

In a sense, Amare's only half the player KG is, but with Wallace instead of Allen, Amare's defensive liabilities are less important and his superior ability to step up in important moments is more important.
</div>

Funny you bring that up. Lets look at there "clutch stats" per 48 min:
(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

Lets compare Amare to lets say Dwight Howard

Amare: 39.8 points
Dwight: 13.8 points

Amare: 50% fg
Dwight: 43.8 fg%

Amare: 20.9 fta
Dwight: 13.1 fta
</div>

First off, we're having a nice debate- let's avoid telling lwp what he can't call a player.
Secondly, my point was that Amare is better in the clutch than KG- not because I know anything special about Amare, but because KG is pretty bad in big moments.
Thirdly, let's go back to 82games and throw some defensive stats in- opposing players averaged 16.7 pp48 (henceforth, "points") against Dwight. PF's averaged 17.1 points against KG, and C's 15.3 points. Against Amare, PF's averaged 26.1 points, and C's 23.9 points. Recall that the other part of my point was that Amare is worse at defense than KG.
</div>

hey amare does not give up 26.1 and 23.9. what year are you looking at?


He gives up 23.2 agaisnt power forwards per 48 and and 21.3 agaisnt centers per 48. But... he averages like 31 pts a game per 48 so IMO thats a pretty damn good plus minus
</div>


LWP is correct.
http://www.82games.com/0708/07PHO15C.HTM
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:31 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 11 2008, 12:16 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 11 2008, 12:04 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lukewarmplay @ Aug 10 2008, 11:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (kk30 @ Aug 10 2008, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>I actually offered pegs, Josh Howard and my 10th for Joe Johnson and Peg's 12th. Pegs said "not even close". But than I really lucked out and got Pierce and a 7th for Love and Howard. I knew you guys didn't like Howard as an Sg so I got a real SG.

Right now my team is a lot like the real Celtic's big three except younger.

PG- Bibby
SG- Pierce
SF- G.Wallace
PF- Amare</div>

In a sense, Amare's only half the player KG is, but with Wallace instead of Allen, Amare's defensive liabilities are less important and his superior ability to step up in important moments is more important.
</div>

Funny you bring that up. Lets look at there "clutch stats" per 48 min:
(4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points)

Lets compare Amare to lets say Dwight Howard

Amare: 39.8 points
Dwight: 13.8 points

Amare: 50% fg
Dwight: 43.8 fg%

Amare: 20.9 fta
Dwight: 13.1 fta
</div>

First off, we're having a nice debate- let's avoid telling lwp what he can't call a player.
Secondly, my point was that Amare is better in the clutch than KG- not because I know anything special about Amare, but because KG is pretty bad in big moments.
Thirdly, let's go back to 82games and throw some defensive stats in- opposing players averaged 16.7 pp48 (henceforth, "points") against Dwight. PF's averaged 17.1 points against KG, and C's 15.3 points. Against Amare, PF's averaged 26.1 points, and C's 23.9 points. Recall that the other part of my point was that Amare is worse at defense than KG.
</div>

hey amare does not give up 26.1 and 23.9. what year are you looking at?


He gives up 23.2 agaisnt power forwards per 48 and and 21.3 agaisnt centers per 48. But... he averages like 31 pts a game per 48 so IMO thats a pretty damn good plus minus
</div>
I'm looking at last year. Am I seeing it wrong?
Amare: Visit My Website
KG: Visit My Website
Dwight: Visit My Website
 
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:32 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Kid Chocolate @ Aug 11 2008, 12:29 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Sean Williams is an awesome shot blocker. Is he a good defender?


MULTI-POSTS FTW</div>

No, but Amare Stoudamire is.
</div>
huh?

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (GMJigga @ Aug 11 2008, 12:21 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}></div><div class='quotemain'>Blocks make a person a good defender.</div>
 
my bad I was looking at PER... but than it makes Amare's plus minus per 48 more than plus 10.

Ok I admit now he does play poor defense but that doesn't effect his value to the team
 
Alright done with the picks, went with Moon and House.

Starting lineup, Fisher, Wade, Moon, Odom, Chandler, bench starting with House who can backup both Fisher and Wade.
 
Blocks do make a person a good defender, but that doesn't mean you can ignore really really bad post defense. That's why I like Amare's defensive ability but not Sean's.
 
ok so average post defender, great shotblocker, and that's why I wouldn't say he's half the player KG is, nor speak on any defensive deficiencies.
 
Man, I wasted a quarter of my ADD pill on this debate. I thought this was the kind of distraction the pills were supposed to keep me away from.
 
Maybe Phoenix' upscale offense leads to opponents doing better than you'd expect, too.

Amare's DIFFERENCE in PER (his offense vs. opponent's offense) is spectacular.

Nice to see KC using stats to defend his arguments!

 
Phoenix was thinking about trading Amare for KG. Why do you think that is?
 
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