Nic needs to start!

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PtldPlatypus said:
On the other hand, does Webster perhaps have the skill-set necessary to defend at the 4? He's listed at 235 lbs--right in-between Cunningham and Pendergraph--and he seems plenty strong to me. I wonder if it would take more out of him to defend on the block vs running around the perimeter.
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I don't put stock into what players are listed at as those numbers are often well off. At his combine Dante Cunningham measured an even inch taller then MW and came in at 227 lbs... Martell has noticeably slimmed down since he came into the league at 230

My eyeball test tells me that Martell isn't big enough to guard 4s either... I also don't think his offensive game is so great that something must be done to find him more then spot minutes. When Roy returns I expect to see his minutes slashed to sub 20

STOMP
 
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I'd definitely like to see how Webster works at the 4. Yeah, we'll get beat up some, but on the other hand opposing 4's are going to have to follow Martell around on the perimeter too. If Boozer is guarding the three point line, he's not under the hoop for the defensive board.

I think you try in limited minutes playing both Webster and Batum, and forget about which guy is the designated "4". They'd both just be swingmen taking turns masquerading as power forwards.

I'd rather see more of this than Pendergraph and/or Cunningham on the court. Don't get me wrong--I'm very pleasantly surprised by their productivity in limited minutes. (11-12 PER ain't bad at all for bench rookie second rounders). But Webster caught some real magic this last month, and I'd like to gamble a little to see if it can come back while playing along side Batum instead of competing with him.
 
STOMP said:
I don't put stock into what players are listed at as those numbers are often well off. My eyeball test tells me that Martell isn't big enough to guard 4s either... I also don't think his offensive game is so great that something must be done to find him more then spot minutes. When Roy returns I expect to see his minutes slashed to sub 20

STOMP
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I think Martell still hasn't found his niche in this league. He's so mentally fragile that I hate seeing him rely so much on his perimeter shot to get him in the game.

Maybe if you re-cast him as an undersized backup 4, it'll result in him getting more buckets around the rim on hustle plays--plays where there's less time to think. That gets his confidence going, and maybe his three pointer is a little less shaky later in the game.

Tell Martell to watch a lot of game film of Gerald Wallace (a guy who happens to be about the same size as Webster). I could live with a poor man's version of Wallace at our 4 position, especially if he has a decent three point shot. Not for the long-term, but at least for now.
 
Nic can not play PF against the bangers like Boozer. Dirk he is fine, but not the real PF's. I would love to have one of you geeks find his stats from 2008 Vegas summer league! I swore he was gonna be in the NBDL for 2 years!
 
mook said:
I think Martell still hasn't found his niche in this league. He's so mentally fragile that I hate seeing him rely so much on his perimeter shot to get him in the game.

Maybe if you re-cast him as an undersized backup 4, it'll result in him getting more buckets around the rim on hustle plays--plays where there's less time to think. That gets his confidence going, and maybe his three pointer is a little less shaky later in the game.

Tell Martell to watch a lot of game film of Gerald Wallace (a guy who happens to be about the same size as Webster). I could live with a poor man's version of Wallace at our 4 position, especially if he has a decent three point shot. Not for the long-term, but at least for now.
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I'd rather gamble the backup 4 minutes on the guys with legit size who don't seem to be so mentally fragile, but to each their own :)

STOMP
 
"THE" HCP said:
Nic can not play PF against the bangers like Boozer. Dirk he is fine, but not the real PF's. I would love to have one of you geeks find his stats from 2008 Vegas summer league! I swore he was gonna be in the NBDL for 2 years!
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I remember watching him and thinking to myself "if he could finish or actually hit a shot, he'd be damn good" His court awareness was great and he was so fluid, but he looked a little gun shy out there too. It's awesome to see how far he's come in such a short amount of time.
 
Minstrel said:
I don't want a second unit. I want the team's five best players to play as much as possible and reserves woven in here and there, when those five need breathers at different times.

When healthy, those five best, IMO, are Miller, Roy, Batum, Aldridge and Oden. Start them, let them play 35 minutes each. Bring in Bayless, Rudy and whomever is the main big reserve (hopefully, that will be Przybilla next year) for the majority of the left-over minutes. Spot minutes for everyone else.
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I could not agree more. Make sure your best unit has the maximum amount of time to get used to one another before the playoffs so when they do play together for 40 minutes a game it comes naturally.
 
mook said:
I think Martell still hasn't found his niche in this league. He's so mentally fragile that I hate seeing him rely so much on his perimeter shot to get him in the game.
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This.

I don't think Championship teams have too many guys who get rattled just by having some compition on their own team. What happens when they face some adversity inflicted by an opponent?

I would love for Martell to nad up and for Batum to help challenge Martell raise his game to new heights. That just doesn't seem to be happening right now.
 
STOMP said:
If they had to they could I guess, but Nic is most effective on D shadowing perimeter players. It would be a waste of this skill to have him battling the brahma bulls of the league down low where he'd give up significant size/weight... size wise dude is a 3

Batum 6'7.75 w/shoes, 7'0.75 wingspan, 8'8.75 standing reach
Martell 6'7.5 w/shoes, 6'11 wingspan, 8'10 standing reach

as usual Quick is just throwing things out regardless of whether it makes sense

STOMP
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Fall camp of his rookie year the Blazers measured him at 6'8" w/o shoes and 6'9" with.
 
STOMP said:
Batum 6'7.75 w/shoes, 7'0.75 wingspan, 8'8.75 standing reach
Martell 6'7.5 w/shoes, 6'11 wingspan, 8'10 standing reach
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Something has to be off with those numbers... Same height and Batum has a 1.75" greater wingspan but a 1.25" lower standing reach? The only way I can see that being possible is if Batum is much wider in the shoulders (thus increasing his wingspan without actually increasing arm length) or his shoulders sit much lower relative to the top of his head. If anything, I would say Batum has a narrower build than Webster, so I don't think the first one is it. And Batum has a pretty small head, so if I had to guess, I would say his shoulders sit higher relative to height, not lower.
 
handiman said:
Something has to be off with those numbers... Same height and Batum has a 1.75" greater wingspan but a 1.25" lower standing reach? The only way I can see that being possible is if Batum is much wider in the shoulders (thus increasing his wingspan without actually increasing arm length) or his shoulders sit much lower relative to the top of his head. If anything, I would say Batum has a narrower build than Webster, so I don't think the first one is it. And Batum has a pretty small head, so if I had to guess, I would say his shoulders sit higher relative to height, not lower.
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The only time Nic was measured was at the Nike hoops summit. Quite a few of those measurements turned out to be inaccurate when the same players were measured at thepredraft camp (Beasly, Rose, Bayless etc.). I read in an article on DraftExpress that Nic measured out at 6' 7.75" WITHOUT shoes. That seems more in line with what I see.
 
That would make more sense. I didn't want to rely too heavily on the "eye" test for comparative heights, but Batum certainly looks taller and longer than Webster.
 
axs88 said:
The only time Nic was measured was at the Nike hoops summit. Quite a few of those measurements turned out to be inaccurate when the same players were measured at thepredraft camp (Beasly, Rose, Bayless etc.).
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huh? I just looked at the 3 players you mentioned and the measurements were very close/within a believable tolerance. In fact what little differences that existed in those 2 sets of measurements had them slightly larger at the Hoops Summit even though those were taken a year prior. That doesn't bode well for the theory that Nic is bigger today then what he measured when he was 18

NikeHS 2007
2008 Combine
I read in an article on DraftExpress that Nic measured out at 6' 7.75" WITHOUT shoes. That seems more in line with what I see.
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link?

people can hang their hat on whatever they like. I've noticed that individual later measurements like the one you claim without fail have the guy bigger then the combine style measurements. Every other player is supposed to have grown several inches post combine too... sure they have :rolleyes2:

STOMP
 
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handiman said:
That would make more sense. I didn't want to rely too heavily on the "eye" test for comparative heights, but Batum certainly looks taller and longer than Webster.
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Also, it is not inconceivable that he could have grown after he was measured (he was only 18 at the time, and looking like 14). So could have Webster, obviously, but he certainly doesn't look like it. Interesting that it's the first time we have seen them together on the court because of their injuries. Batum certainly covers more ground on offense and defense.

Take Omri Casspi, who is the same age as Batum. He was measured to be 6'7" with shoes at the Summit, then at 6'7.75" without and 6'9.25" with shoes at the predraft. That's a 2.25" difference in 2 years. STOMP likes to bring up predraft measurements, that's fine because that's pretty much the only thing we can go by, but those Hoops Summit numbers shouldn't be taken seriously, me thinks.
 
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axs88 said:
Also, it is not inconceivable that he could have grown after he was measured (he was only 18 at the time, and looking like 14).
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not inconceivable, but statistically very very few guys grow after the age of 18 and few of those that do grow significantly like you're suggesting Nic has.

I've looked into this several times... I'd suggest you do look it up for yourself if you doubt me :google:

STOMP
 
STOMP said:
huh? I just looked at the 3 players you mentioned and the measurements were very close/within a believable tolerance.
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Beasley: 2 inch difference in standing reach, 0.75 inch in height
Bayless: 3 inch difference in standing reach

It's not a lot, but I think it's significant if you want to compare Nic's summit numbers to Martell's predraft ones.
 
STOMP said:
not inconceivable, but statistically very very few guys grow after the age of 18 and few of those that do grow significantly like you're suggesting Nic has.

I've looked into this several times... I'd suggest you do look it up for yourself if you doubt me :google:

STOMP
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I know it's rare. So what's up with Omri Casspi? Either his measurements are inaccurate or he's one of the few cases. You're saying Nic's hoops numbers are not off, and also that it's very unlikely he has grown. I guess people can hang their hat on whatever they like.
 
axs88 said:
Beasley: 2 inch difference in standing reach, 0.75 inch in height
Bayless: 3 inch difference in standing reach
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right, both going the wrong direction... they were 2" & 3" less a year later. Since their heights and wingspans came very close to perfect matches, it suggests that something was probably different in the way that standing reach was measured.
It's not a lot, but I think it's significant if you want to compare Nic's summit numbers to Martell's predraft ones.
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again, using the 2 lists runs counter to the theory that Nic is bigger then Martell

STOMP
 
axs88 said:
I know it's rare. So what's up with Omri Casspi? Either his measurements are inaccurate or he's one of the few cases.
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thats what science has revealed... if you trust that stuff
You're saying Nic's hoops numbers are not off, and also that it's very unlikely he has grown. I guess people can hang their hat on whatever they like.
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yes they can. I'm siding with overwhelming statistical data

STOMP
 
I know you have the published stats on your side, STOMP, but I can't help but believe my eyes. When I see Batum and Webster out on the court together, Batum just looks taller and significantly longer. Some of that may just be because lankier people appear that way, but I don't think so. When Batum spreads those arms out defending at the wing, or leaps up to contest a shot, he just seems to have a lot more reach on him than Webster.

At best you might convince me that my eyes are wrong because Webster just doesn't use his length as effectively as Batum. But even if that were the case, it's not much use discussing the full length of a guy when he refuses to use that full length.
 
mook said:
I know you have the published stats on your side, STOMP, but I can't help but believe my eyes. When I see Batum and Webster out on the court together, Batum just looks taller and significantly longer. Some of that may just be because lankier people appear that way, but I don't think so. When Batum spreads those arms out defending at the wing, or leaps up to contest a shot, he just seems to have a lot more reach on him than Webster.

At best you might convince me that my eyes are wrong because Webster just doesn't use his length as effectively as Batum. But even if that were the case, it's not much use discussing the full length of a guy when he refuses to use that full length.
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your eyes may be correct, Nic may be one of the very rare exceptions. It might also be that he has superior anticipation/feel for the game so it only seems that he has more length because he makes more plays on the ball. But unless things change in the way that player size is revealed to important folks like you and me, we'll never know for certain if Nic has grown. btw... to my eyes MW and NB appear about the same size

Maybe we could get HCP to ask him whats what :dunno:

STOMP
 
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"THE" said:
Ask him what?
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Ask Marty and Nic how tall they are. Batum may tell you in centimeters, but it's alright. Better yet, ask them to stand next to each other with their backs. Or bring a meausure, maybe both have grown (like Oden... oh wait) :lol:
 
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