No Comments on the "Dream Act" Passing the House last night?

[barfo]

Here’s a link http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/04/10/rel5o.pdf to the CNN poll from earlier this year that I was referencing:

The question asked was:


66% answered ‘should not’.

Here’s the Gallup question you reference:


As you know, the results of any poll are influenced by the way the question is asked.

Seems to me the Gallup poll was a lot closer to describing the Dream Act than the CNN poll.

Do you think it would influence the percentage approving if they also asked, "Would you support giving illegal aliens federal Pell grants to pay for their college?" Or, "Would you support giving illegal residents in-state tuition rates to help them gain legal status?" Or, if the poll explained that the law calls for them to attend college….it doesn’t say they have to complete a program or obtain a degree?

No doubt, it would be better to force poll respondents to read and understand the entire bill (and have a full and complete understanding of related laws and social issues and costs) before accepting their answers.

Since some huge percentage of Americans believe in UFOs and that Obama was born in Kenya and other such nonsense, you really have to question the usefulness of asking Americans anything at all. But you brought up polling, not me.

The Gallup link you cite admits that it’s not clear how much the people know about the particulars of the bill, which would seem to reinforce my claim that it has not been widely reported.

If they put this to a vote of the people, I would live with the results even if I didn’t like them. Passage of this kind of bill on my behalf, by a bunch of self-serving politicians, doesn’t work for me.

Go Blazers

For better or for worse, that's the American way. We have a representative system of government.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

You don't like Mexicans...barfo

Nonsense.

Make up some more lies about me.

 

[MARIS61]

Since some huge percentage of Americans believe in UFOs...barfo

Unidentified Flying Objects exist. It's an obvious fact.

I would suggest anyone who claims that all flying objects have always been identified is arguing an unsupportable point just to be argumentative.

Kind of like what you're doing on the illegal immigration issue.

 

[barfo]

Nonsense.

Make up some more lies about me.

Right, you just believe in shooting them.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Unidentified Flying Objects exist. It's an obvious fact.

I would suggest anyone who claims that all flying objects have always been identified is arguing an unsupportable point just to be argumentative.

Clever, but of course I was using "UFO" not in the absolutely literal sense, but in the 'aliens from outer space' sense.

barfo

 

[barfo]

arguing an unsupportable point just to be argumentative.

Kind of like what you're doing on the illegal immigration issue.

What unsupportable point do you think I'm arguing? I'm just pointing out the problems with your claims.

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

Right, you just believe in shooting them.

barfo

Again you lie about me. I never said anything that could be mistaken for that.

You are deliberately substituting Mexicans for illegal aliens, because you have no arguement. You are simply here to bait and act the class clown.

 

[MARIS61]

Clever, but of course I was using "UFO" not in the absolutely literal sense, but in the 'aliens from outer space' sense.

barfo

Either way, your attempt at mocking Americansfor believing "things which most likely exist" exist, is disingenuous.

You would be hard-pressed to find a credible authority that thinks there is no life in the universe other than here on Earth.

 

[Minstrel]

Again you lie about me. I never said anything that could be mistaken for that.

You are deliberately substituting Mexicans for illegal aliens, because you have no arguement. You are simply here to bait and act the class clown.

You said this about Mexicans:

Maybe you don't really know anything about Mexico because nobody has given you a link, but it's got 110 million people, and a large minority of them are really bad, murderous types. The rest are mostly cowards.

No mention of illegal immigrants. You said a large minority of the Mexican population is murderous and the rest are mostly cowards. I helpfully bolded the parts that made it clear that you were speaking about the entire Mexican population, not the ones that illegally cross the border.

It's not barfo that's the racist here. It's time you looked at the man in the mirror and asked him to make a change, as Michael Jackson would have advised when he was still a much-loved pop star.

 

[MARIS61]

You said this about Mexicans:



No mention of illegal immigrants. You said a large minority of the Mexican population is murderous and the rest are mostly cowards. I helpfully bolded the parts that made it clear that you were speaking about the entire Mexican population, not the ones that illegally cross the border.

It's not barfo that's the racist here. It's time you looked at the man in the mirror and asked him to make a change, as Michael Jackson would have advised when he was still a much-loved pop star.

Fail.

2 different arguements about 2 completely different things.

I said I support shooting anyone who attempts to illegally cross our borders. Swedes, Swahilis or Siamese makes no difference to me. Barfo is the one who keeps inserting race into it.

As for "MOST OF THE REST OF THEM" (not the same as all, refers to a large majority of a small majority since a large minority are criminals, so about 50%) being cowards, I think that's plain to see. A country cannot fall into such massive and devastating decay, both structurally and morally, unless it's people are total cowards or incredibly lazy. Since we've all heard the legendary tales of illegal alien Super menial-task-workers and their superhuman displays of manual labor superiority, one can only come to the conclusion they are cowards.

 

[Minstrel]

2 different arguements about 2 completely different things.

Yes, unlike barfo, I wasn't saying you were advocating shooting all Mexicans. Just that you've been plenty racist about Mexicans as that quote of yours clearly illustrates.

As for "MOST OF THE REST OF THEM" (not the same as all

It's not the same and doesn't have to be the same. Labeling nearly all of an ethnicity or race as either murderous or cowardly is textbook prejudice. You don't have to say "all" for that to be true. Saying "A large minority of whites are stupid and most of the rest are evil" would also be prejudiced, even though the statement doesn't make a claim about all of them.

 

[MARIS61]

Yes, unlike barfo, I wasn't saying you were advocating shooting all Mexicans. Just that you've been plenty racist about Mexicans as that quote of yours clearly illustrates.



It's not the same and doesn't have to be the same. Labeling nearly all of an ethnicity or race as either murderous or cowardly is textbook prejudice. You don't have to say "all" for that to be true. Saying "A large minority of whites are stupid and most of the rest are evil" would also be prejudiced, even though the statement doesn't make a claim about all of them.

It's not racist, as Mexican is not a race. It is a nationality and I use the term correctly to refer to Mexican citizens regardless of their race. Again, race is not any part of this arguement.

As for cowardly/lazy, the collapse of their society with only a handful of heroes stepping forward to fight for it clearly demonstrates this.

BTW, why are you defending Barfo? He called most Americans (most of whom are caucasian) stupid.

 

[oldguy]

How, exactly, do you propose the government does that? We already spend $10 billion/year on border security, up 55% in the last 4 years. How much more of your tax money do you think we should throw at the problem, and how effective do you think more money would be at stopping border crossings?

barfo

I misspoke. I know that stopping illegal immigration isn’t the intent of the DREAM Act. I should have said that the act doesn’t make any movement toward slowing the flow into the country. It’s status quo for illegal immigration. There is nothing in the bill that makes me want to help pick up the tab for it’s cost.

If I were to propose how to stop illegal immigration, it would be through denying jobs to undocumented workers. Fine employers heavily, per occurrence, when they hire illegal aliens. Labor provided by illegal aliens would not be allowed as a business expense. If there are no jobs for undocumented workers, why would they come here?

I would also propose that they build the fences. Building parts of it doesn’t do shit but waste the money.

Go Blazers

 

[Minstrel]

It's not racist, as Mexican is not a race. It is a nationality

The concept of race is pretty ambiguous and the term "racism" is often used in a more general way, but even then, I switched to the terms "prejudice" and "ethnicity," so lawyer-ball doesn't work here.

 

[oldguy]

I'm afraid I've forgotten what your ethnic group is, but please explain the "standard path to citizenship" for a citizen of Mexico.

barfo

Is the path for Latinos more difficult than the path for other nationalities?

Go Blazers

 

[barfo]

BTW, why are you defending Barfo? He called most Americans (most of whom are caucasian) stupid.

Again you lie about me. I never said anything that could be mistaken for that.

You are deliberately substituting stupid for believing in nonsense, because you have no argument. You are simply here to bait and act the class clown.

barfo

 

[oldguy]

How many green cards are given to citizens from Mexico?

barfo

What percentage of the immigrants that benefit from this bill will be non-Latino?

Go Blazers

 

[barfo]

Is the path for Latinos more difficult than the path for other nationalities?

Go Blazers

Latinos, literally, no. A Latino who is say, a citizen of Switzerland, would probably not have a very difficult time immigrating.

barfo

 

[barfo]

What percentage of the immigrants that benefit from this bill will be non-Latino?

Go Blazers

What difference does it make?

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

The concept of race is pretty ambiguous and the term "racism" is often used in a more general way, but even then, I switched to the terms "prejudice" and "ethnicity," so lawyer-ball doesn't work here.

Ethnicity does not apply for the same reason, and you've produced no hint of evidence that my view is prejudiced rather than an accurate conclusion based on the recent collapse into hell their country has taken.

 

[MARIS61]

Latinos, literally, no. A Latino who is say, a citizen of Switzerland, would probably not have a very difficult time immigrating.

barfo

Link?

 

[MARIS61]

What difference does it make?

barfo

Absolutely none.

 

[barfo]

I misspoke. I know that stopping illegal immigration isn’t the intent of the DREAM Act. I should have said that the act doesn’t make any movement toward slowing the flow into the country. It’s status quo for illegal immigration. There is nothing in the bill that makes me want to help pick up the tab for it’s cost.

If I were to propose how to stop illegal immigration, it would be through denying jobs to undocumented workers. Fine employers heavily, per occurrence, when they hire illegal aliens. Labor provided by illegal aliens would not be allowed as a business expense. If there are no jobs for undocumented workers, why would they come here?

That makes perfect sense. Of course, that would also be easy to do, so we have to ask ourselves why it hasn't been done.

I would also propose that they build the fences. Building parts of it doesn’t do shit but waste the money.

Go Blazers

Agree with you on the parts of it part, but I don't think it makes sense to build a 2000 mile fence. That's so 5th century BC.
Remove the economic incentive and you don't have to build the fence.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Link?

http://library.uwb.edu/guides/USimmigration/79 stat 911.pdf

barfo

 

[MARIS61]

That makes perfect sense. Of course, that would also be easy to do, so we have to ask ourselves why it hasn't been done.



Agree with you on the parts of it part, but I don't think it makes sense to build a 2000 mile fence. That's so 5th century BC.
Remove the economic incentive and you don't have to build the fence.

barfo

There are many incentives of an economic nature that have nothing to do with employment.

Most illegals come here for the myriad of free social and educational services provided, the cleaner environment, the access to modern conveniences such as indoor plumbing, libraries with pcs...

Building a fence and shooting those who climb it is 100% effective and much cheaper than trying to continually check in person every single hire made of a non-citizen (obviously impossible).

 

[MARIS61]

http://library.uwb.edu/guides/USimmigration/79 stat 911.pdf

barfo

???

 

[barfo]

There are many incentives of an economic nature that have nothing to do with employment.

Most illegals come here for the myriad of free social and educational services provided, the cleaner environment, the access to modern conveniences such as indoor plumbing, libraries with pcs...

Link?

Building a fence and shooting those who climb it is 100% effective and much cheaper than trying to continually check in person every single hire made of a non-citizen (obviously impossible).

Dropping 1000 nukes on Mexico would also be very effective. But like your plan, it lacks something in morality.

barfo

 

[barfo]

???

It's the relevant immigration law.

barfo

 

[oldguy]

That makes perfect sense. Of course, that would also be easy to do, so we have to ask ourselves why it hasn't been done.



Agree with you on the parts of it part, but I don't think it makes sense to build a 2000 mile fence. That's so 5th century BC.
Remove the economic incentive and you don't have to build the fence.

barfo

It hasn't been done because there is no political will to do it. The Democrats want the Hispanic vote and the Republicans want the cheap labor. The citizens just get to pick up the tab.

Go Blazers

 

[MARIS61]

Dropping 1000 nukes on Mexico would also be very effective. But like your plan, it lacks something in morality.

barfo

Exact opposites.

One is an immoral aggressive act of war against a non-aggressive country.

The other a justifiable act of self-defense against an invading horde of Mexican deserters.