Noah over Oden?

[drexlersdad]

"Oden, who isn’t exactly looking like he’s ready to dominate the NBA. But he’s no longer looking lost and though somewhat mechanical, with his strength and size he is becoming something of a force inside."

He actually wrote that AFTER last night's ass kicking.

Well, he may not be ready to dominate the NBA, but he is certainly ready to dominate Joakim Noah and the Chicago Bulls.

Amazing, Oden totally destroyed the Bulls last night 24 PT, 12 REB, 2BLK, 7-8 FG, 10-12 FTs in less than 27 minutes and that only makes him "something" of a force inside. Sheesh. Sam Smith is the ultimate myopic homer.

Noah is a good energy hustle guy (like Anderson Varejao), but he's not close to the player Oden is now. Oden already wipes the floor with him - and Noah is 3 years older and has very limited upside. Last night's performance clearly illustrates the difference between a dominant center and a nice hustle guy who is physically overmatched at the center position.

BNM

what a douche

 

[andalusian]

Oden is already dominating the league on defense. But, it's not a sexy stat - so most people take some time to figure it out.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...t&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws

 

[Boob-No-More]

Conversely, I really think Noah is still a pretty damn good center, despite the way he played against Oden last night. I think getting bodied up all week by guys like Bynum, Gasol, Nene, etc. and then Pryzbilla and Oden last night has worn him down ... and he alluded to this in his post game comments last night (it probably doesn't help that he was the only front-court player worth a damn on the Bulls roster -- Taj Gibson is ... "raw").

Not to diminish what he does in the hustle department, but the real problem I see for Joachim is that I just don't think he is a guy who can command double teams or score from the block, and I'm not sure he's capable of single covering the truly overpowering physical guys in the league who have both height and bulk advantages. He's still a steal considering his draft position.

He's a decent center in the East, but when he comes out West and goes up against teams that are long and STRONG, he gets abused. For this reason, I think he'd make a better 4 than a 5.

BNM

 

[STOMP]

Last year's 2 Blazer v Bulls matchups...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200811190POR.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200901120CHI.html

yeah, hopefully someday Greg will be able to hold his own with Noah

STOMP

 

[Boob-No-More]

Oden is already dominating the league on defense. But, it's not a sexy stat - so most people take some time to figure it out.

http://www.basketball-reference.com...t&c3val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=ws

He's second in the entire league in DRtg, leading the league in FG%, 2nd in TRB%, 1st in BLK%, tied for 1st in BLKS, 2nd in TS% and top 5 in several other statistical categories. Yet, ass clowns like Bill Simmons continue to call him a bust and Sam Smith will not admit Oden is better than Joakim Noah.

And Greg is just getting started. The best is yet to come.

BNM

 

[mook]

Noah strikes me as a less intense, less intelligent, less crazy version of Dennis Rodman. And he's definitely more of a power forward than a center.

You know who would look pretty good next to Noah? LaMarcus Aldridge. Tell LA to put on a little more bulk so he can better defend centers, and he'd be a perfect fit.

I wonder how Viktor Khryapa worked out for them...

 

[Nikolokolus]

He's a decent center in the East, but when he comes out West and goes up against teams that are long and STRONG, he gets abused. For this reason, I think he'd make a better 4 than a 5.

BNM

The trouble is, I don't think he has the right skill-set to be a 4 in today's NBA. His offense is all putbacks and hustle plays to my eye. That jumper of his is ... janky (to be kind). Basically I think he's a much more athletic version of Joel on offense and not quite as cerebral on defense. If he ever develops some post moves he could be pretty good; though at 24 years old, I'm not sure that's in his cards.

 

[Nikolokolus]

He's second in the entire league in DRtg, leading the league in FG%, 2nd in TRB%, 1st in BLK%, tied for 1st in BLKS, 2nd in TS% and top 5 in several other statistical categories. Yet, ass clowns like Bill Simmons continue to call him a bust and Sam Smith will not admit Oden is better than Joakim Noah.

And Greg is just getting started. The best is yet to come.

BNM

Simmons loves scorers and shooters, and Sam Smith is a Bulls employee so he's basically their version of Mike Barret when he writes for them; of course he's going to minimize what Oden did to Noah last night and give faint praise, he's not a reporter.

 

[Boob-No-More]

Last year's 2 Blazer v Bulls matchups...

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200811190POR.html

http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/200901120CHI.html

yeah, hopefully someday Greg will be able to hold his own with Noah

STOMP

In their three head-to-head meetings:

11/16/2008:
Blazers 116
Bulls 74
Oden: 11 PT, 10 REB
Noah: 4 PT, 5 REB

1/12/2009:
Blazers 109
Bulls 95
Oden: 17 PT, 13 REB
Noah: 3 PT, 2 REB

11/21/2009:
Blazers 122
Bulls 98
Oden: 24 PT, 12 REB
Noah: 7 PT, 8 REB

Average Margin: Portland +26.7
Oden: 17.3 PPG, 11.7 RPG
Noah: 4.7 PPG, 5.0 RPG

Oden FTW and it's not even close.

Yeah, I'd say "he is becoming something of a force inside".

BNM

 

[MikeDC]

Noah strikes me as a less intense, less intelligent, less crazy version of Dennis Rodman. And he's definitely more of a power forward than a center.

You know who would look pretty good next to Noah? LaMarcus Aldridge. Tell LA to put on a little more bulk so he can better defend centers, and he'd be a perfect fit.

I wonder how Viktor Khryapa worked out for them...

The fact you wonder indicated he didn't. As you know

Smith, in case some folks didn't notice, now actually writes for the Bulls, so his bullshit to useful information ratio is higher than ever.

 

[andalusian]

He's second in the entire league in DRtg, leading the league in FG%, 2nd in TRB%, 1st in BLK%, tied for 1st in BLKS, 2nd in TS% and top 5 in several other statistical categories. Yet, ass clowns like Bill Simmons continue to call him a bust and Sam Smith will not admit Oden is better than Joakim Noah.

Well, I was commenting about the dominance issue. TS%, FG% and the like show that he is efficient, but Joel had fantastic TS% and FG% last year, that did not make him dominant. Same with BLK% - The bird-man had fantastic BLK% last year, but he is not a dominant player. DRTG, on the other hand, is a catch all stat that shows real dominance, and it is not a surprise that the 3 best regular rotation guys in the league in the query we showes are very good defensive player. Everyone knows that KG is the Celtics defensive Anchor. We all knew Sheed could play great defense. Not many people are aware of the fact that Greg does it for Portland. He is a dominant defensive player, and an efficient, and occasionally dominant offensive player.

It is not a surprise that Sam Smith does not realize it, he is a hack, just like our very own shit-stirrers here in Portland.

And Greg is just getting started. The best is yet to come.

Darn tootin' - Kid is going to be a player, and all the mental midgets that called him a bust, are, well, mental midgets.

 

[ehizzy3]

Darn tooting....haven't heard that in awhile

 

[andalusian]

Darn tooting....haven't heard that in awhile

It's just like regular tootin'. Only Darner.

BTW - from the Chad Ford chat:

Tyler (Portland)

Is it time to get excited about Greg Oden or should I hold off for a little longer?
Chad Ford
(1:09 PM)

I think so. He's got a PER at 22 ... just slightly behind Kevin Durant this year. He's definitely a defensive force. Offensively he's still figuring it out. I know he's had 16, 16, and 24 in his last 3 games, but I don't think he'll keep that up this year. If I'm a Blazers fan I just need 12 to 14 ppg, 10 to12 rpg, 2 bpg and Oden on the floor 25 to 30 min a night. That would be huge. I don't think he'll ever put up the big numbers that Shaq did. But he could be the best big man defender in the league. And frankly, having a 7 footer that can do that will produce more rings than a 6-11 small forward who can score 30 ppg. That was the thinking all along why GMs preferred Oden to Durant. KD is the sexier player and as an offensive player there is just no comparison. KD is great. Oden is aspiring to average. But defensively, Oden could be dominant. KD ... not so much.

 

[drexlersdad]

sheed is 3rd in drtg?

 

[mook]

KD is the sexier player and as an offensive player there is just no comparison. KD is great. Oden is aspiring to average.

Oden seems to demand quite a few double teams and is shooting the second highest FG% in the league. Not bad for a guy who is "aspiring to average."

 

[mook]

The fact you wonder indicated he didn't. As you know

I like to bring up Viktor Khryapa whenever the Bulls get brought up. It's all part of the Sam Bowie grieving process.

 

[Jayps15]

Oden seems to demand quite a few double teams and is shooting the second highest FG% in the league. Not bad for a guy who is "aspiring to average."

After last night he's #1, combined with his 79% from the FT line he's an efficiency monster on offense

EDIT: just checked, Oden's 2nd in the league in TS% at 67.7% with only Chris Paul higher than him... Considering Paul was generally considered to be shooting at an unsustainable rate and he's been out since playing us 2 weeks ago it might not be long until Oden reaches #1 there as well.

 

[andalusian]

Oden seems to demand quite a few double teams and is shooting the second highest FG% in the league. Not bad for a guy who is "aspiring to average."

Again, efficient vs. dominant. I have no problems with this assessment so far. Greg is just not a consistent offensive threat, yet.

It will come, but at this point - Chad Ford speaks the truth.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Oden seems to demand quite a few double teams and is shooting the second highest FG% in the league. Not bad for a guy who is "aspiring to average."

I think it has more to do with mechanics and they way he looks when he goes into his moves. Despite his great percentages, it still doesn't look "great", which makes it harder to call him a good or great offensive player (and his ability to read and react to a double team is still a work in progress). If he can keep growing, and if the team can keep feeding him the ball (the two are intertwined) then I think he's got serious 17-18 ppg potential.

The dominant "Shaq-like" 25+ ppg averages seem less likely if only because this team has so many other options on the court with him, and he's still got a ways to go before you'd want to feed him the ball for 18-20 shots per game.

 

[Minstrel]

Again, efficient vs. dominant. I have no problems with this assessment so far. Greg is just not a consistent offensive threat, yet.

There's room in between "dominant" and "aspiring to average," it isn't one or the other. Oden is not dominant offensively, but he's more than average, let alone "aspiring" to average. It's not just his efficiency, it's the fact that teams consistently double-team him. When you're an efficient, productive scorer and you draw frequent double-teams, you're an above average offensive force. It's not just a question of the double-teams showing that other coaches respect Oden...drawing double-teams has a large positive effect on team offense.

 

[STOMP]

Again, efficient vs. dominant. I have no problems with this assessment so far. Greg is just not a consistent offensive threat, yet.

It will come, but at this point - Chad Ford speaks the truth.

how is someone who commands a double team, leads the league in FG%, shoots 79% from the line, and absolutely dominates the offensive boards not at least an average player on offense?

at this point - Chad Ford is laughably wrong

STOMP

 

[BBert]

Style points don't win games. It's results that matter. I don't care how awkward he looks. He's unstoppable. Greg's results on both ends of the court are becoming dominant and game winning. He doesn't have to score all our points and he won't. This team is going to be scary good.

PS: I love Greg's passing.

 

[Nikolokolus]

There's room in between "dominant" and "aspiring to average," it isn't one or the other. Oden is not dominant offensively, but he's more than average, let alone "aspiring" to average. It's not just his efficiency, it's the fact that teams consistently double-team him. When you're an efficient, productive scorer and you draw frequent double-teams, you're an above average offensive force. It's not just a question of the double-teams showing that other coaches respect Oden...drawing double-teams has a large positive effect on team offense.

I think this is the correct analysis ...

how is someone who commands a double team, leads the league in FG%, shoots 79% from the line, and absolutely dominates the offensive boards not at least an average player on offense?

at this point - Chad Ford is laughably wrong

STOMP

Style points don't win games. It's results that matter. I don't care how awkward he looks. He's unstoppable. Greg's results on both ends of the court are becoming dominant and game winning. He doesn't have to score all our points and he won't. This team is going to be scary good.

PS: I love Greg's passing.

C'mon guys. I think we're letting last night's breakout performance color our memories of the other 15 games he's played so far this year. He has not been dominant all year, he's certainly starting to really gain confidence in the past few games, but he hasn't been this unstoppable wrecking ball on offense.

 

[andalusian]

how is someone who commands a double team, leads the league in FG%, shoots 79% from the line, and absolutely dominates the offensive boards not at least an average player on offense?

Because the Blazers are just using him sporadically on offense.

Again, I think that Oden is going to be a much better offensive player than people call him, and I think that he can be dominant in spurts - but overall, the way the Blazers use him, the way he has to deal with foul problems, the way he has lots of turn-overs against better post defenders (which the Bulls do not have). I am OK with that description.

Roy is a dominant offensive player, Durant is a dominant offensive player, D-Howard is a dominant offensive player. Greg is not there. But it's coming.

 

[mook]

Again, efficient vs. dominant. I have no problems with this assessment so far. Greg is just not a consistent offensive threat, yet.
.

He is a pretty consistent offensive threat. In 9 of his last 13 games and 4 of his last 5 he's been in double figures. It's not dominant, but it's reasonably consistent, and increasingly so.

Last year he really wasn't. Half his games he never made it into double figures, and of course he missed 21 games too.

He's certainly not anywhere near Durant. But he's a guy every opposing coach has to account for in their defensive scheme. Thus, he's a threat.

 

[mook]

Roy is a dominant offensive player, Durant is a dominant offensive player, D-Howard is a dominant offensive player. Greg is not there. But it's coming.

Who said Greg was a dominant offensive player?

 

[STOMP]

Because the Blazers are just using him sporadically on offense.

Again, I think that Oden is going to be a much better offensive player than people call him, and I think that he can be dominant in spurts - but overall, the way the Blazers use him, the way he has to deal with foul problems, the way he has lots of turn-overs against better post defenders (which the Bulls do not have). I am OK with that description.

Roy is a dominant offensive player, Durant is a dominant offensive player, D-Howard is a dominant offensive player. Greg is not there. But it's coming.

well then you're wrong too. Greg is more then an average offensive player. Of course he's going to get better, but on dude is already a beast inside having a big effect on many games. Subpar offensive players don't do what he is accomplishing

STOMP

 

[andalusian]

2,6,6,12,8,14,11,14,18,8,8,11,6,16,16,24

Those are Greg's scoring results this year, so far.

Threat? You bet. Efficient? No doubt. Some dominant performances? Yes sir. Better than last year? Great. But he is not a dominant offensive player yet.

It will come. I have no doubt about it. I have no doubt a lot of people will eat a lot of crow over their assessment of Greg and his potential. But he not a dominant offensive player, yet.

 

[andalusian]

Who said Greg was a dominant offensive player?

The entire Sam Smith argument was that he was not ready to dominate the league. I pointed that he is already a dominant defensive player, and some people pointed to his great TS%, rebounding rate in rebuttal. I consider that as part of the same argument about the word dominant.

With that said, I love what we get from Greg, I think he is going to get so much better that it is scary (for the rest of the league) - and I see no problems with calling him "aspiring for average" at this point. When he scores 14-15 PPG - I would be ready to call it "average" for such a high-draft pick with such a physical dominance that he has - and I have no doubts that it will come.

You think it is not right, fair enough. I am willing to accept different opinions. That's all there is to it. I am pretty sure that Greg thinks he can be a lot more consistent, a lot better on offense as well (based on his post-game remarks) - so I am good with it.

Anything from here on is an argument over the definition of the words dominant and average and the like - and I am going to leave it to Mr. Language Person to discuss it.

 

[bobf]

I think it has more to do with mechanics and they way he looks when he goes into his moves. Despite his great percentages, it still doesn't look "great", which makes it harder to call him a good or great offensive player (and his ability to read and react to a double team is still a work in progress). If he can keep growing, and if the team can keep feeding him the ball (the two are intertwined) then I think he's got serious 17-18 ppg potential.

Still doesn't look great... but looking better every day. Think about how he looked last year.