Noah over Oden?

[mgb]

I think it has more to do with mechanics and they way he looks when he goes into his moves. Despite his great percentages, it still doesn't look "great", which makes it harder to call him a good or great offensive player (and his ability to read and react to a double team is still a work in progress). If he can keep growing, and if the team can keep feeding him the ball (the two are intertwined) then I think he's got serious 17-18 ppg potential.

The dominant "Shaq-like" 25+ ppg averages seem less likely if only because this team has so many other options on the court with him, and he's still got a ways to go before you'd want to feed him the ball for 18-20 shots per game.

You know what does surprise me is his finese. I'm not talking about when he powers pass a defender, but when he puts up a little hook shot it's always soft and with touch. Last nite I remember him getting a rebound and flicking it softly back up with one hand for the score. Same thing last year even when his shots were missing usually they just barely missed, but he obviously had nice touch to his shot it was just a matter of dialing it in. To me that is what some seem to be missing.

 

[mook]

Yeah, as often happens in these forums, we get more wrapped up in terminology than actual substance. I think we both have similar expectations. When I hear "aspiring to average," I think of Steve Blake or Joakim Noah. I don't put it in the context of #1 pick/physical dominance/etc.

Compared to #1 draft pick physical specimen centers, I'd say Oden is well in the "aspiring to average" category.

 

[magnifier661]

I can't wait to read Sam Smith's article.

 

[magnifier661]

My post to his article.

MAGS said...
LOL. I loved seeing you on NBATV.com and they talked about this very article. I was laughing all game, knowing you were there seeing Oden completely "man-handle" both chicago's bigs. I just wanted to thank you for writing this piece to light the fire under Oden. As a good sport's columnist, you already know the surgery that Oden had, takes 2 full years before you fully recover. This is basically his first year healthy. I sure hope there is a rebuttal to this article coming soon.

 

[SpanishFly]

His Turnover rate is rapidly falling and I loved his passing last night, like Rice said he's "improving by the hour"!

 

[Boob-No-More]

With that said, I love what we get from Greg, I think he is going to get so much better that it is scary (for the rest of the league) - and I see no problems with calling him "aspiring for average" at this point. When he scores 14-15 PPG - I would be ready to call it "average" for such a high-draft pick with such a physical dominance that he has - and I have no doubts that it will come.

I won't get into the whole dominant vs. average argument. As has been stated, there is a lot of room between the mid-point (average) and the extreme (dominant). I will just say you have a very unconventional definition of average. You realize there are only two players in the league who average => 14ppg and => 0.600 FG%? And, they both play a lot more minutes than Oden. In fact, Oden is only one of four players in the entire league to be averaging more than 10 PPG on 0.600 or greater FG%.

Oden is already above average offensively. I don't know what the number is this year, but in past years, the "average" NBA player averages about 8 PPG. Oden is currently averaging 11.3 PPG. That's not average, that's not "aspiring to average". It is, by deinition, above average. And that he's doing so incredibly efficiently (league leading 0.640 FG%) makes it all the more impressive. I'd say "slightly above average aspiring to dominant" is more accurate at this point. He's not dominant yet, but all he really needs is more time and more touches. I'm confident he'll get there.

BNM

 

[BBert]

C'mon guys. I think we're letting last night's breakout performance color our memories of the other 15 games he's played so far this year. He has not been dominant all year, he's certainly starting to really gain confidence in the past few games, but he hasn't been this unstoppable wrecking ball on offense.

How about a ball in a bearing? A well oiled bearing? Or a very large gear meshing with a series of other gears, like in a giant clockworks? Or the middle finger in a giant hand balled up into a god-like fist smashing our foes into dust?

Please excuse me. I'm sick and heavily medicated.

 

[andalusian]

I won't get into the whole dominant vs. average argument. As has been stated, there is a lot of room between the mid-point (average) and the extreme (dominant). I will just say you have a very unconventional definition of average. You realize there are only two players in the league who average => 14ppg and => 0.600 FG%? And, they both play a lot more minutes than Oden. In fact, Oden is only one of four players in the entire league to be averaging more than 10 PPG on 0.600 or greater FG%.

Oden is already above average offensively. I don't know what the number is this year, but in past years, the "average" NBA player averages about 8 PPG. Oden is currently averaging 11.3 PPG. That's not average, that's not "aspiring to average". It is, by deinition, above average. And that he's doing so incredibly efficiently (league leading 0.640 FG%) makes it all the more impressive. I'd say "slightly above average aspiring to dominant" is more accurate at this point. He's not dominant yet, but all he really needs is more time and more touches. I'm confident he'll get there.

My entire point is that I think Chad Ford and many other people use the word Average based on expectations, given his pre-draft hype, pre-draft expectation and draft position. If Martel Webster gave you 11.6 points a night, you would call him an average offensive player - without any problems. He was a top-10 draft pick, a nice one, and 11.6 PPG is average performance for a guy drafted that high.

That's all I am saying. You want to argue he is above average already, I agree, by efficiency, not by production - and that's all I am really going to say about it anymore - because it is just restating one's opinion over and over again.

 

[RR7]

Didn't know where else to put it, and didn't want to start a new thread, but there was aplay last night, I think in the 3rd quarter. Either Rose or Pargo went for a runner in the lane, took it at about the 12 foot or so mark. Oden was close to the front of the rim and jumped as high as possible. He barely missedit, and the shot went in, but he had no business being as close as he was to it. Would have been an incredible block if he got it, adn with the force he swatted with, would have cleared half court on the fly.

 

[magnifier661]

Didn't know where else to put it, and didn't want to start a new thread, but there was aplay last night, I think in the 3rd quarter. Either Rose or Pargo went for a runner in the lane, took it at about the 12 foot or so mark. Oden was close to the front of the rim and jumped as high as possible. He barely missedit, and the shot went in, but he had no business being as close as he was to it. Would have been an incredible block if he got it, adn with the force he swatted with, would have cleared half court on the fly.

OMG I saw that too. There wasn't much said about it, but I remembered seeing his head above the rim and literally his fingers were 2" from getting a block. I was like "WTF?!?!?! Where was he and how did he react so fast off that shot?!?!" Just imagine when the players actually know how to channel players to Oden's best "help D position?!?!" The paint will be controlled.

 

[Boob-No-More]

My entire point is that I think Chad Ford and many other people use the word Average based on expectations

Then they are misusing the word average.

You want to argue he is above average already, I agree, by efficiency, not by production - and that's all I am really going to say about it anymore - because it is just restating one's opinion over and over again.

He already scores more than the "average" NBA player. If he was doing so, but very inefficiently, I could buy your arguement that he is below average offensively. But, he is scoring more than the "average" player - AND he's doing it exceptionally efficiently. I just don't see how above average scoring + exceptional scoring efficiency = below average.

BNM

 

[tlongII]

noah is a better player... now but i wonder if oden will ever have a 21 rebound game. thats impressive

LOL

 

[Boob-No-More]

Noah == hustle
Oden == muscle

Imagine if you could put Noah's motor in Oden's body. He'd foul out in about 4 minutes, but man what an entertaining 4 minutes it would be.

BNM

 

[Nikolokolus]

How about a ball in a bearing? A well oiled bearing? Or a very large gear meshing with a series of other gears, like in a giant clockworks? Or the middle finger in a giant hand balled up into a god-like fist smashing our foes into dust?

Please excuse me. I'm sick and heavily medicated.

I have no idea what you're talking about but I love it.

 

[andalusian]

Then they are misusing the word average.

No they are not. Average is a statistical term. The result is based on the population you refer to.

He already scores more than the "average" NBA player.

Sure. Does he score more than the "average" 1st round pick?

All you need to do is figure out what the "population" is when you apply the term. Since Ford did not specify it, but referred to Durant, I am guessing that he was talking about the #1 pick. You disagree because you think it is referred to the entire NBA player population.

There is your difference.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Then they are misusing the word average.

He already scores more than the "average" NBA player. If he was doing so, but very inefficiently, I could buy your arguement that he is below average offensively. But, he is scoring more than the "average" player - AND he's doing it exceptionally efficiently. I just don't see how above average scoring + exceptional scoring efficiency = below average.

BNM

You're not getting his point. He did not say "average" NBA player, he said

average performance for a guy drafted that high

So, to be fair to his point, you must determine the average of all #1 picks (really the
median would be more interesting - to me, anyway). I don't know what that is, but
my guess is that it is quite a bit higher than what Oden is averaging. Of course, it's
really a moot point. Greg in treading on new territory in terms of his injury background.
He'll be fine.

As you showed, he's definitely above "average NBA player" even if he is "below average
#1 pick". He's right at "average 2nd year #1 pick who didn't play his entire draft year
because of microfracture surgery".

 

[Nikolokolus]

You're not getting his point. He did not say "average" NBA player, he said


So, to be fair to his point, you must determine the average of all #1 picks (really the
median would be more interesting - to me, anyway). I don't know what that is, but
my guess is that it is quite a bit higher than what Oden is averaging. Of course, it's
really a moot point. Greg in treading on new territory in terms of his injury background.
He'll be fine.

As you showed, he's definitely above "average NBA player" even if he is "below average
#1 pick". He's right at "average 2nd year #1 pick who didn't play his entire draft year
because of microfracture surgery".

Sheesh, that's an awful lot of qualifiers. Even minus the MF surgery, he was never a prolific scorer in college, he was something like 15/9 his lone season at OSU (albeit in 28 mpg because he was fairly foul prone then too).

Many we're really splitting hairs over semantics around here; Greg looks good right now.

/thread

 

[Minstrel]

All you need to do is figure out what the "population" is when you apply the term. Since Ford did not specify it, but referred to Durant, I am guessing that he was talking about the #1 pick.

Since I'm sure Ford didn't do an exhaustive study on the averages for the "#1 pick population," I'm guessing that even if you're right in interpreting what he meant, he's referring to what #1 picks are expected to be...i.e. superstars. So if Ford is saying that Oden "aspires to be an average superstar on offense," I, too, have no problem with that. Oden is on his way there but not nearly there yet.

However, I disagree with your interpretation. I think he meant average with respect to the NBA population...in which case, he'd be very wrong.

 

[andalusian]

However, I disagree with your interpretation. I think he meant average with respect to the NBA population...in which case, he'd be very wrong.

I think that as a Mod you can add a sticky for interpretation threads about what ESPN personalities said, or did not say. Or don't.

 

[oldmangrouch]

I think that as a Mod you can add a sticky for interpretation threads about what ESPN personalities said, or did not say. Or don't.

Some people are semantic-nazis....at least where a certain THIRD year center is concerned.

 

[andalusian]

Some people are semantic-nazis....at least where a certain THIRD year center is concerned.

That's only because they know that KP hates power forwards and throws teams under public transportation vehicles.

What?

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Some people are semantic-nazis....at least where a certain THIRD year center is concerned.

Oxymoron. The Nazis were anti-semantic.

 

[Minstrel]

Oxymoron. The Nazis were anti-semantic.

Nicely played.

 

[Natebishop3]

Oxymoron. The Nazis were anti-semantic.

Channeling your inner Barfo.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Nicely played.

Thanks--I was kinda proud of that one.

Channeling your inner Barfo.

A height to which I can only someday aspire.

 

[STOMP]

2,6,6,12,8,14,11,14,18,8,8,11,6,16,16,24

Those are Greg's scoring results this year, so far.

Threat? You bet. Efficient? No doubt. Some dominant performances? Yes sir. Better than last year? Great. But he is not a dominant offensive player yet.

strawman

the question is whether Ford is right in his contention that Greg is a below average offensive player not whether he is a dominant offensive player. People aren't saying he's dominant, but that overall he's pretty effective and hardly a liability. From your description of his game above, I'd swear that you agree with this yet you've claimed Ford is right.



STOMP

 

[Natebishop3]

I guess I don't understand... if someone has BEEN dominant, how can they not be considered dominant? At what point do they become fully dominant, and not just partially dominant, or remotely dominant? Maybe Greg is just 'nant? He has to work to add the "domi"

 

[PtldPlatypus]

I guess I don't understand... if someone has BEEN dominant, how can they not be considered dominant? At what point do they become fully dominant, and not just partially dominant, or remotely dominant? Maybe Greg is just 'nant? He has to work to add the "domi"

My sentiment is that he's eminent, but his dominance is imminent.

 

[magnifier661]

I would really like to have this "Oden is an offensive force or not debate" a few more months down the road. I suspect we will be seeing a much more potent offense from Oden. You can see his confidence get higher and higher each and every minute played on the court. 20/12/2 could even be a possibility. I still think 15/13/2 is my goal. I hope he fucking blows it out of the water.

 

[Natebishop3]

I would really like to have this "Oden is an offensive force or not debate" a few more months down the road. I suspect we will be seeing a much more potent offense from Oden. You can see his confidence get higher and higher each and every minute played on the court. 20/12/2 could even be a possibility. I still think 15/13/2 is my goal. I hope he fucking blows it out of the water.

I think Greg could EASILY average 3-4 blocks per game when he figures out how to let the ball come to him and control his fouls.