Nurk vs. Hassan

[Orion Bailey]

Nonsense. He has as many "wins" as Dame this year. So then Dame's stats don't equate to wins in that bizarre logic. How do you know that if everything else was exactly the same and it was a healthy Nurkic instead of Whiteside, that Portland would have any more wins than they do right now? There's simply no way to determine that. We haven't had to watch Nurkic carry the burden of playing with Melo & Tolliver at PF like Whiteside has

winshares:

Damian Lillard 9.4 Hassan Whiteside 7.9 CJ McCollum 3.5 Gary Trent 1.6 Trevor Ariza 1.4 Skal Labissière 1.4 Rodney Hood 1.1 Carmelo Anthony 0.8 Nassir Little 0.6 Anfernee Simons 0.3

winshares/48:

Damian Lillard .219 Hassan Whiteside .206 Skal Labissière .122 Trevor Ariza .102 Rodney Hood .087 CJ McCollum .079 Gary Trent .073 Nassir Little .051 Mario Hezonja .040 Carmelo Anthony .024 Anfernee Simons .011

BPM:

Damian Lillard 7.3 Hassan Whiteside 3.3 CJ McCollum 0.9 Trevor Ariza -0.3 Rodney Hood -1.0 Gary Trent -1.0 Skal Labissière -1.3 Mario Hezonja -3.1 Carmelo Anthony -4.0 Anfernee Simons -4.3

Wins over replacement:

Damian Lillard 13.23 Hassan Whiteside 6.75 CJ McCollum 4.32Trevor Ariza 0.91 Gary Trent 0.81 Rodney Hood 0.54 Skal Labissière 0.27 Mario Hezonja -0.54 Carmelo Anthony -2.16 Anfernee Simons -2.16

meh. Stats arent everything.
I wonder what it would like like if you took the win/loss percent of nurk when he has a double double vs Whiteside?

cRe to figure that and see what it breaks down to?
You are comparing Whiteside to other Blazers

break down all players in the nba this season who have had at least ten double doubles. Whats the win/loss percent of those games for those players aNd wheee does Whiteside fall in line?

ill eat my crow if he is in the top half. Im betting he falls in the bottom half.

 

[TBpup]

Put Nurk as the starter with Melo at the '4' and any selection of Ariza/Bazemore/Mario at the '3' and see what happens. I'm guessing, it doesn't go well.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Put Nurk as the starter with Melo at the '4' and any selection of Ariza/Bazemore/Mario at the '3' and see what happens. I'm guessing, it doesn't go well.

sure. But Nurk isn't running around crying about not being defensive player of the year when his inflated stats don't equate to inflated wins.
I see why Miami got rid of him for so cheap.

this is a team sport. How many teams have you seen sin it all with a self interested stat stuffer on the team?
Westbrook aNd Harden haven't won shit.
Davis couldn't win without Lebron and still technically hasn't.

Im not saying he is a bad guy, im saying its more important to play team ball for us than it is to get stats.

 

[TBpup]

sure. But Nurk isn't running around crying about not being defensive player of the year when his inflated stats don't equate to inflated wins.
I see why Miami got rid of him for so cheap.

this is a team sport. How many teams have you seen sin it all with a self interested stat stuffer on the team?
Westbrook aNd Harden haven't won shit.
Davis couldn't win without Lebron and still technically hasn't.

Im not saying he is a bad guy, im saying its more important to play team ball for us than it is to get stats.

Of course that is all true. But I thought the premise was Nurk vs Hassan. Nurk hasn't won anything either. In fact, you could make a pretty easy argument that Denver has been better since he left. I'm not anti-Nurk in the least. Just trying to look at the whole thing from a bigger context.

 

[hoopsjock]

sure. But Nurk isn't running around crying about not being defensive player of the year when his inflated stats don't equate to inflated wins.
I see why Miami got rid of him for so cheap.

this is a team sport. How many teams have you seen sin it all with a self interested stat stuffer on the team?
Westbrook aNd Harden haven't won shit.
Davis couldn't win without Lebron and still technically hasn't.

Im not saying he is a bad guy, im saying its more important to play team ball for us than it is to get stats.

I mean Denver literally gave Portland a 1st round pick to take Nurk though so you can't really use the "Miami gave Whiteside away for cheap" argument with one and not the other.

 

[Scalma]

When allll the numbers are telling you one thing, while (some) people are telling you another, we have a nice little case of confirmation bias. Sure stats lie, but not when they all suggest the same thing. But because of that bias, every mistake he makes will be magnified and blown up into something it’s not. If Whiteside was the primary catalyst of this teams issues, why haven’t they won any of the games he’s missed?

Does he have holes in his game? Of course. Most players do. It’s also funny how a lot of people didn’t truly appreciate Nurkic until he was gone. I could bring up so many posts where I or others had to defend him on here, many times concerning the same exact stuff Whiteside is getting accused of.

I look at it is like this; Nurk is a top 10, borderline top 5, center. He’s elite. Whiteside is more in the 10-20 range. Still solid, still makes an impact, still better than Meyers, and if he’s willing to be a backup next season, we’re going to have a massive advantage over other teams.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

When allll the numbers are telling you one thing, while (some) people are telling you another, we have a nice little case of confirmation bias. Sure stats lie, but not when they all suggest the same thing. But because of that bias, every mistake he makes will be magnified and blown up into something it’s not. If Whiteside was the primary catalyst of this teams issues, why haven’t they won any of the games he’s missed?

Does he have holes in his game? Of course. Most players do. It’s also funny how a lot of people didn’t truly appreciate Nurkic until he was gone. I could bring up so many posts where I or others had to defend him on here, many times concerning the same exact stuff Whiteside is getting accused of.

I look at it is like this; Nurk is a top 10, borderline top 5, center. He’s elite. Whiteside is more in the 10-20 range. Still solid, still makes an impact, still better than Meyers, and if he’s willing to be a backup next season, we’re going to have a massive advantage over other teams.

I love Nurks game, and WS is still a good center, but in todays NBA is the center position important enough that having a bit advantage there is even worth it? Seems to me they really need upgrades at 3 / 4.

 

[Scalma]

I love Nurks game, and WS is still a good center, but in todays NBA is the center position important enough that having a bit advantage there is even worth it? Seems to me they really need upgrades at 3 / 4.

yeah it’s worth it. Look at when we had Nurkic against golden state last year. He created massive issues for them. Those mismatches work both ways.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

yeah it’s worth it. Look at when we had Nurkic against golden state last year. He created massive issues for them. Those mismatches work both ways.

Blazers were successful for a while without Nurk though and beat a team with a top 3-4 center in the NBA. I agree that its always good to have that advantage and I think part of their problem is they really havent had a decent backup to whiteside all year. So I guess maybe you’re right? Im just not totally sure how well that would work. Would be on board with finding out though.

 

[Scalma]

Blazers were successful for a while without Nurk though and beat a team with a top 3-4 center in the NBA. I agree that its always good to have that advantage and I think part of their problem is they really havent had a decent backup to whiteside all year. So I guess maybe you’re right? Im just not totally sure how well that would work. Would be on board with finding out though.

personally I like the idea of going big while everyone else goes small. That was the original idea before Collins got injured and Gasol never returned. One of our primary advantages the last couple years has been rebounding. We lost that this season. Would be great to give “bully ball” an actual look.

 

[Minstrel]

sure. But Nurk isn't running around crying about not being defensive player of the year when his inflated stats don't equate to inflated wins.
I see why Miami got rid of him for so cheap.

this is a team sport. How many teams have you seen sin it all with a self interested stat stuffer on the team?
Westbrook aNd Harden haven't won shit.
Davis couldn't win without Lebron and still technically hasn't.

Right, and Michael Jordan couldn't win without Scottie Pippen. And LeBron James couldn't win without Dwayne Wade and Chris Bosh, and then Kyrie Irving and Kevin Love. Kevin Garnett couldn't win without Paul Pierce and Ray Allen. Clearly these weren't winning players, not the kind you'd want on a successful team.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

personally I like the idea of going big while everyone else goes small. That was the original idea before Collins got injured and Gasol never returned. One of our primary advantages the last couple years has been rebounding. We lost that this season. Would be great to give “bully ball” an actual look.

Seems fair, I kind of think the way to beat all the small ball is to punish them on the boards so lets go! Guess Im on board.

 

[wizenheimer]

meh. Stats arent everything.

no, they aren't everything but neither is your opinion

you're basically regurgitating the 'hollow stats' argument. That's what you're saying...Whiteside has hollow stats. But there are stats that try to gauge player's contributions to wins, and those stats don't agree with you

many times this season I've asked people to demonstrate what make's Whiteside's numbers hollow. Nobody has ever shown anything except for babbling about wins. But that remedial argument means that Dame & Cj's stats are just as hollow as Whiteside's; they all have the same number of wins. Dame's scoring and assists are as hollow as Whiteside's scoring and rebonding

it's probably a radical idea, but just maybe a better roster has more to do with wins that a worse roster. And scapegoating one player for losses is horseshit

 

[wizenheimer]

I love Nurks game, and WS is still a good center, but in todays NBA is the center position important enough that having a bit advantage there is even worth it? Seems to me they really need upgrades at 3 / 4.

yeah, that's a very legitimate question

Golden State has won championships with about one budget C on the roster. Toronto won last season with a C rotation of Gasol and Ibaka splitting duties between C & PF; and this season, they have the 3rd best record in the league with Gasol & Ibaka combining to miss 41 games

the Clippers are rolling and they've only had Zubac at C and appear to be just fine adding Noah for a minimum. Denver only has Jokic and Plumlee but they can play together because of Plumlee's mobility and passing.

Certainly, Having two traditional C's is great insurance against injury, and right now there are plenty of valid concerns about Nurk's durability. But spending maybe 30M of the cap on a C rotation of Nurkic, Whiteside, and Collins when two of the three could never really play at the same time seems a questionable use of limited resource in an evolving league. All you have to do is think about what Aron Baynes did Thursday night

speaking of which, Baynes will be UFA this summer

 

[BBert]

Not sure if it's about that, but most of Hassan's blocks goin strite in their hands and 1/3 of them go outside for an easy 3 (well, it's always easy 3 against Blazers, init?). So, there is a q: Are Hassan's blocks actually hurting the team?

Bill Walton said (paraphrasing) that in most cases, for a blocked shot to be valuable the ball needs to stay in bounds. Otherwise, obviously, the other team just gets the ball back. Whiteside didn't get the memo.

 

[Minstrel]

Bill Walton said (paraphrasing) that in most cases, for a blocked shot to be valuable the ball needs to stay in bounds. Otherwise, obviously, the other team just gets the ball back. Whiteside didn't get the memo.

Blocking it "to" a teammate certainly is more valuable, but I can't agree that it's not valuable if it goes out of bounds. It snuffs a short shot attempt and doesn't reset the shot clock, so the opposing team needs to manufacture a new shot with probably significantly less time.

 

[Lanny]

Help me explain something to my wife: Why is Nurk better than Hassan?

She watches Hassan play, sees his gaudy stats, and I try to explain that even so, Nurk is a better fit for this team. But I can't exactly explain how.

Help please.

I'm gonna go with it's roughly a push. Each has his strengths and a very reasonable argument can be made as to each one being better than the other. Right now, I'm go with your wife and say that Whiteside is better and he is learning how to fit in with the team at a pretty fast rate.

 

[Lanny]

Bill Walton said (paraphrasing) that in most cases, for a blocked shot to be valuable the ball needs to stay in bounds. Otherwise, obviously, the other team just gets the ball back. Whiteside didn't get the memo.

The majority of his blocked shots stay in bounds and are recovered by Blazers.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Of course that is all true. But I thought the premise was Nurk vs Hassan. Nurk hasn't won anything either. In fact, you could make a pretty easy argument that Denver has been better since he left. I'm not anti-Nurk in the least. Just trying to look at the whole thing from a bigger context.

I mean Denver literally gave Portland a 1st round pick to take Nurk though so you can't really use the "Miami gave Whiteside away for cheap" argument with one and not the other.

When allll the numbers are telling you one thing, while (some) people are telling you another, we have a nice little case of confirmation bias. Sure stats lie, but not when they all suggest the same thing. But because of that bias, every mistake he makes will be magnified and blown up into something it’s not. If Whiteside was the primary catalyst of this teams issues, why haven’t they won any of the games he’s missed?

Does he have holes in his game? Of course. Most players do. It’s also funny how a lot of people didn’t truly appreciate Nurkic until he was gone. I could bring up so many posts where I or others had to defend him on here, many times concerning the same exact stuff Whiteside is getting accused of.

I look at it is like this; Nurk is a top 10, borderline top 5, center. He’s elite. Whiteside is more in the 10-20 range. Still solid, still makes an impact, still better than Meyers, and if he’s willing to be a backup next season, we’re going to have a massive advantage over other teams.

personally I like the idea of going big while everyone else goes small. That was the original idea before Collins got injured and Gasol never returned. One of our primary advantages the last couple years has been rebounding. We lost that this season. Would be great to give “bully ball” an actual look.

all great points. I digress.

for the record i don't think im biased. For most of the season i have wanted him back for next season

i guess its just getting more and more frustrating to watch us continue to lose with a center putting numbers up like that next to Dame aNd Cj.

 

[TorturedBlazerFan]

all great points. I digress.

for the record i don't think im biased. For most of the season i have wanted him back for next season

i guess its just getting more and more frustrating to watch us continue to lose with a center putting numbers up like that next to Dame aNd Cj.

Wow OB that fish caught a big human.

 

[Orion Bailey]

no, they aren't everything but neither is your opinion

you're basically regurgitating the 'hollow stats' argument. That's what you're saying...Whiteside has hollow stats. But there are stats that try to gauge player's contributions to wins, and those stats don't agree with you

many times this season I've asked people to demonstrate what make's Whiteside's numbers hollow. Nobody has ever shown anything except for babbling about wins. But that remedial argument means that Dame & Cj's stats are just as hollow as Whiteside's; they all have the same number of wins. Dame's scoring and assists are as hollow as Whiteside's scoring and rebonding

it's probably a radical idea, but just maybe a better roster has more to do with wins that a worse roster. And scapegoating one player for losses is horseshit

you are discounting bbiq and player positioning.

No need to get all snarky about it.

nurk doesn't get hw stats because he positions himself better to allow team ball and maximize our weapons.
My eye test says hw does not. And thus we lose even though he rakes in the stats. Pretty sure you could find alot of complaining about his positioning in game threads.

 

[Orion Bailey]

You guys say jordan doesn't win without pippen. Lol. Well Dame is whitesides pippen.
If that is the argument, we already have a big three. What gives?

 

[Orion Bailey]

Oh. Hey. Ill chalk it up to coaching. I mean player positioning is ultimately a coaches responsibility. Get it the eight positions or get off the court. Right?