OT ODOT BUILDING PLAN TO TOLL COMMUTERS

[MARIS61]

You are free to swim across the river anytime you want.

barfo

With traffic the way it is on the bridges now, it's quicker to drive to TBOTG from Portland, and cross.

For me in Beautiful Central Oregon, the mismanaged Portland/Vancouver traffic swamp is an obstruction to avoid anytime crossing the border.

 

[barfo]

With traffic the way it is on the bridges now, it's quicker to drive to TBOTG from Portland, and cross.

Bridge of the Gods is a toll bridge, you know.

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

http://www.kgw.com/mobile/article/news/local/odot-building-plan-to-toll-commuters/493406737

The Oregon Department of Transportation is getting serious about tolls.

PORTLAND, Ore. – The Oregon Department of Transportation is getting serious about tolls.

During a meeting Monday at ODOT’s regional headquarters, 25 people on a committee representing many sides of the toll road debate discussed the issue. The public was also invited to attend.

The two routes ODOT is considering for tolls are Interstate 5 and Interstate 205 from the Washington border down to the Interstate 205 junction south of Portland.

Supporters say the tolls could relieve congestion and frustration on the major commute routes.

Tolling, or as ODOT calls it, "value pricing," can come in several forms. You could pay for a dedicated travel lane, or to drive at peak times.

The agency hopes drivers take an interest as they talk about the options.

“We hope that the process will educate folks and they might see the benefits that value pricing will bring to the region in terms of making reliable, less congested trips for people who are traveling here,” said Travis Brouwer, assistant director for ODOT.

If tolls happen, they are at least a couple of years away. In the meantime, drivers are already forming opinions.

“I don’t appreciate the traffic at all, especially when I have all these kids and we’re trying to get to where we need to go," one woman said. "And I would pay to get there a little bit faster."

But another driver we spoke with doesn’t think there are enough lanes available to make tolling work.

“I mean just put a nickel on the gas or whatever, the toll’s not gonna work," she said. "It’s congested every day at rush hour, you know. It just wouldn’t work.”

To learn more and give drivers a chance to weigh in, ODOT is holding several other public committee meetings through next June on the tolling issue.

The next meeting is December 7 in Portland. The agency needs to have a proposal to submit to the federal government by the end of 2018.

Are you fucking kidding me?????
when they use funds to "Improve the aesthetics" of 205? I swear if I didnt have so little time on my hands, I would devote myself to the city planning committee.

Why the hell are we putting steel rope barriers in the median of 205 right now???? Has anyone else seen this? Complete with concrete footings?

When it comes time to expand the highway (which is what they should have done to begin with) they will now have this rope barrier preventing them from working both sides at once!!! It is the most idiotic thing Ive ever seen in my life, and i've spent most of it in construction and new road paving including a stint with the NYDOT.

I'm all about paying for improving the roads, but when the ODOT is spending it on rope lines for a 5o' wide median that isn't an immediate danger, but they cant fix the overpass junctions in West Linn that causes traffic in a 65 MPH zone to have to slow down to 45 to feel safe, it's pretty frustrating and a telling sign that there is not a clear long term goal/plan that is efficient and progressive.

IF I had previously known where and when these meetings that are open for public debate were, I would have tried hard to start attend and provide insight/long term planning ideas.


Edit: After checking the meeting times listed for this discussion, they are during standard work hours!!!!!! So in order to have a voice, you must forfeit a day of work or vacation day????

What the hell happened to evening town hall meetings and the such? These things should be held after hours when it is for the public to have a voice!!!!!!!

Man......They do everything they can to make sure the little man gets heard......

 

[Orion Bailey]

It will if the toll is high enough.



That does not make traffic disappear. Many argue that that creates more traffic.



Maybe if they get pissed enough they'll stop commuting by car, reducing traffic.

barfo

Do you really think the city would sacrifice its economy by forcing such a toll that the workforce sits and home???
Do you realize the long term impact that would have on companies already struggling to find quality employees??? And thus the impact on the city and states' tax revenue?? It would far surpass what the toll would bring in....

Secondly, show me ANY toll ANY where that is so high that it has forced commuters off the road.... Keep in mind Ive lived on the east coast.....


Lets get real here.

 

[barfo]

Do you really think the city would sacrifice its economy by forcing such a toll that the workforce sits and home???

That's not the idea - the idea is to encourage other forms of commuting, and to encourage non-rush-hour commuting.

Do you realize the long term impact that would have on companies already struggling to find quality employees???

They might have to hire people who live closer to work, or who are willing to take public transit, or who are willing to pay the tolls? They might have to be flexible about work hours?

Secondly, show me ANY toll ANY where that is so high that it has forced commuters off the road.... Keep in mind Ive lived on the east coast.....

If true, then that's just a sign the toll isn't high enough.

Lets get real here.

Ok, let's do. What's your alternative? Build more lanes of freeway? How much more tax are you willing to pay for that?

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

That's not the idea - the idea is to encourage other forms of commuting, and to encourage non-rush-hour commuting.



They might have to hire people who live closer to work, or who are willing to take public transit, or who are willing to pay the tolls? They might have to be flexible about work hours?



If true, then that's just a sign the toll isn't high enough.



Ok, let's do. What's your alternative? Build more lanes of freeway? How much more tax are you willing to pay for that?

barfo

This metro area isn't built up enough to have every community economically dependent on itself and thats not how most metro areas are built.
There are zones.
So for example, I work in Tualatin, in a large industrial area. There is not even close to enough residential to sustain all of the business.
Conversely, I live in central east Portland, and there is not nearly enough industrial to sustain the population of the residential area of east Portland.
So moving closer to work is not an option for most people in most areas.

Now combine that with the geographical landscape of the Portland metro area(Hills and rivers impeding commutes, creating bottlenecks) and that weeds out most alternative forms of transportation.

Again, for example, I cant ride a bike from my house to my work... not in a reasonable amount of time anyhow.
I also cant use max/public transportation because the several transfers required creates a transit time that equals my commute in my personal vehicle.

IF you want a long term solution, it will kill big business wanting to move to Portland. There would have to be a zoning and tax realignment that allows for indiviuals to be able to afford to live closer to their work, which would require a combination of tax relief to afford those higher priced areas and smaller zoning sections, so residential neighborhoods are closer to industrial parks, and the industrial parks would need limitations on size...

But then this creates more traffic as businesses send and receive products to be processed to one another via metro couriers.

There is no easy answer, but it starts with long term planning that encompasses both the residents and the businesses of Portland. With that said, Ive seen enough not to trust the current committee with the spending of the funds they raise and I am not in favor of any increase of funding until I see some improvements in spending priorities and efficiency.

I do know this. Raising tolls will not clear the roads, as you have insinuated. It will just create more road rage.

 

[barfo]

This metro area isn't built up enough to have every community economically dependent on itself and thats not how most metro areas are built.
There are zones.
So for example, I work in Tualatin, in a large industrial area. There is not even close to enough residential to sustain all of the business.
Conversely, I live in central east Portland, and there is not nearly enough industrial to sustain the population of the residential area of east Portland.
So moving closer to work is not an option for most people in most areas.

Now combine that with the geographical landscape of the Portland metro area(Hills and rivers impeding commutes, creating bottlenecks) and that weeds out most alternative forms of transportation.

Again, for example, I cant ride a bike from my house to my work... not in a reasonable amount of time anyhow.
I also cant use max/public transportation because the several transfers required creates a transit time that equals my commute in my personal vehicle.

IF you want a long term solution, it will kill big business wanting to move to Portland. There would have to be a zoning and tax realignment that allows for indiviuals to be able to afford to live closer to their work, which would require a combination of tax relief to afford those higher priced areas and smaller zoning sections, so residential neighborhoods are closer to industrial parks, and the industrial parks would need limitations on size...

But then this creates more traffic as businesses send and receive products to be processed to one another via metro couriers.

There is no easy answer, but it starts with long term planning that encompasses both the residents and the businesses of Portland. With that said, Ive seen enough not to trust the current committee with the spending of the funds they raise and I am not in favor of any increase of funding until I see some improvements in spending priorities and efficiency.

I do know this. Raising tolls will not clear the roads, as you have insinuated. It will just create more road rage.

Agreed, it's a difficult problem, and certainly no single thing will fix it completely.

Is there more road rage on toll roads? Seems like that should be statistically knowable.

As for your situation, I'm unconvinced that you couldn't move to Tualatin if you wanted to. There are houses there, I've seen them. Of course there are tradeoffs in doing so, I'm not suggesting that you should want to. But the point of tolling is to shift the balance of those tradeoffs. If you had to pay a million dollars a day to commute, you'd either move or get a job closer to home. If it costs you one penny to commute, you aren't going to worry too much about it. Somewhere in the middle is a number which will cause the balance to tip the other way for some fraction of people.

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

Agreed, it's a difficult problem, and certainly no single thing will fix it completely.

Is there more road rage on toll roads? Seems like that should be statistically knowable.

As for your situation, I'm unconvinced that you couldn't move to Tualatin if you wanted to. There are houses there, I've seen them. Of course there are tradeoffs in doing so, I'm not suggesting that you should want to. But the point of tolling is to shift the balance of those tradeoffs. If you had to pay a million dollars a day to commute, you'd either move or get a job closer to home. If it costs you one penny to commute, you aren't going to worry too much about it. Somewhere in the middle is a number which will cause the balance to tip the other way for some fraction of people.

barfo

Fair enough, but only if zoning allows for such a shift, or there will be severe economic ramifications.

My wife and I are currently looking to move closer to my work, but based on what we are looking for in order to live comfortably, it severely limits the options available.

Most houses in Tualatin, Sherwood, Lake O., West Linn are some of the most expensive in the area. I work for a great company and make a better than average wage, but not close to enough to live "well" in these areas where the average house value is like $600,000 or more.

 

[Orion Bailey]

Agreed, it's a difficult problem, and certainly no single thing will fix it completely.

Is there more road rage on toll roads? Seems like that should be statistically knowable.

As for your situation, I'm unconvinced that you couldn't move to Tualatin if you wanted to. There are houses there, I've seen them. Of course there are tradeoffs in doing so, I'm not suggesting that you should want to. But the point of tolling is to shift the balance of those tradeoffs. If you had to pay a million dollars a day to commute, you'd either move or get a job closer to home. If it costs you one penny to commute, you aren't going to worry too much about it. Somewhere in the middle is a number which will cause the balance to tip the other way for some fraction of people.

barfo

Id like to add on the point highlighted above that moving closer may not be a financial option for many and finding another job would (in my case) likely result in a step down in pay and scale and/or a complete shift in occupation, as most of the companies near me are retail and not manufacturing. So depending on skillset, finding another job closer is not always an option either.

 

[barfo]

Id like to add on the point highlighted above that moving closer may not be a financial option for many and finding another job would (in my case) likely result in a step down in pay and scale and/or a complete shift in occupation, as most of the companies near me are retail and not manufacturing. So depending on skillset, finding another job closer is not always an option either.

All true. Tradeoffs... might have to pitch a tent in the brush down by the river, or take to drugs and stealing.

barfo

 

[jonnyboy]

All true. Tradeoffs... might have to pitch a tent in the brush down by the river, or take to drugs and tolling.

barfo

Ftfy.

 

[barfo]

Never send to know for whom the bridge tolls... it tolls for thee.

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

All true. Tradeoffs... might have to pitch a tent in the brush down by the river, or take to drugs and stealing.

barfo

Okay?
And what was your address again?

 

[barfo]

Okay?
And what was your address again?

The blue tent, in the brush down by the river.

barfo

 

[Orion Bailey]

The blue tent, in the brush down by the river.

barfo

I was down there last night trying to score. They are ALL blue!!!!....