Politics Official 2024 Presidential Election Thread

[Sheldon Shape]

Trump is better for the rich than a real progressive. So the Democratic Party will not support a real progressive. They'd lose all of their financial backing to Trump.

That's definitely true, but just talking about populism gives Trump that outsider appeal since so many don't actually follow policy.

 

[beast blazer]

Lol

Nice try. Read the study. Each state was compared to their own numbers the two years prior to the pandemic. So the south prior death rates were taken into consideration and these were excess deaths above and beyond typical.

But keep reaching...

No. Those regions were less healthy to begin with. You may as well assert that listening to gangster rap and country music caused more covid deaths. The excess death rates correlate exactly with wealth. There's an extremely tight health/wealth correlation.

The masks, the vaccines, the lockdowns, didn't do anything except hurt people, in a variety of ways.

 

[Phatguysrule]

No. Those regions were less healthy to begin with. You may as well assert that listening to gangster rap and country music caused more covid deaths. The excess death rates correlate exactly with wealth. There's an extremely tight health/wealth correlation.

The masks, the vaccines, the lockdowns, didn't do anything except hurt people, in a variety of ways.

That's not what the data shows. That is an emotional take that you WANT to believe. But it is not based on the actual evidence.

 

[barfo]

And that's why she's slipping in the polls. Nobody wants center. Nobody wants establishment. The country has been crying for change since Obama and they haven't gotten it. Moving to the center gets you funding, but loses you votes...

There are plenty of people who are uninterested in radical change in either direction, who are happy with a warm place to sleep and a full stomach.

Campaigns are designed to sniff out available votes, it doesn't always work out, but if she is 'moving to the center', it's because that's where they believe the available votes are.

barfo

 

[beast blazer]

That's not what the data shows. That is an emotional take that you WANT to believe. But it is not based on the actual evidence.

You don't seem to be grasping the reason why this study doesn't mean anything.

I'll put it to you another way: the "covid measures" have been studied in isolation, masking, school closures etc, and were found to have no affect on covid. This just further proves the conclusions of the paper are stupid.

This is the problem: people produce papers like this to confuze and bamboozle people into compliance and in going along with harmful edicts.

 

[crandc]

Sanewashing in action.

Headlines: Trump blasts hurricane response at economic forum.
Straightforward. You can agree or disagree with criticism of hurricane response but certainly valid campaign issue.

What Trump actually said:

TRUMP: And then all of a sudden you hear that they're leaving Milwaukee or they're leaving wherever they may be located.

It's very sad to see it. And it's so simple. I mean, you know, this isn't like Elon with his rocket ships that land within 12 inches on the moon where they wanted to land or he gets the engines back. That was the first I realized I said, Who the hell did that?

I saw engines about three, four years ago. These things were coming cylinders, no wings, no nothing.

And they're coming down very slowly, landing on a raft in the middle of the ocean someplace with a circle.

Boom.

Reminded me of the Biden circles that he used to have, right? He'd have eight circles and he couldn't fill them up.

But then I heard he beat us with the popular vote.

I don't know.

I don't know.

Couldn't fill up the eight circles.

I always loved those circles.

It was so beautiful. It was so beautiful to look at. In fact, the person that did them, that was the best thing about his. The level of that circle was great, but they couldn't get people. So they used to have the press stand in those circles because they couldn't get the people.

Then I heard we lost.

Oh, we lost.

No, we're never going to let that happen again.

 

[PCmor7]

The various edicts that shut down the economy were mostly state and local edicts. And it the Democraps pushed those far harder. Trump should have done more to fight back AGAINST the criminals like Fauci who were promoting those policies.

But Trump was the voice saying we should open up, so blaming it on him rather than the side who was actively promoting it is absurd.

All this tripe about "everything good that happened under Trump was because of Obama and every thing bad was because of Trump". That's just mindless drivel. It's like playing volleyball without the net.

You're saying he wasn't effective enough to lead the nation. Re-read what you wrote. You are in no uncertain terms saying he was not up to the job.

I swear, the data is undeniable. The reasoning is irrefutable. And we'll still have people like you trying to say he couldn't do the job ... well, because he couldn't do the job, but somehow it's OK.

 

[beast blazer]

You're saying he wasn't effective enough to lead the nation. Re-read what you wrote. You are in no uncertain terms saying he was not up to the job.

I swear, the data is undeniable. The reasoning is irrefutable. And we'll still have people like you trying to say he couldn't do the job ... well, because he couldn't do the job, but somehow it's OK.

He failed in that he promoted the fast tracking of a shitty treatment that has brought nothing but harm. Even Biden and the ladies on The View were saying they didn't want to be first in line to get it, until they decided that was not going to be the left's position. And he surrounded himself with swamp rats.

But now he's endorsed RFK Jr who was calling this stuff out from the start.

Even though Trump is flawed, power must be kept from the hands of the Democraps, because they are the front of an corrupt establishment. The Democraps = the Neocons, that's why Dick Cheany loves them, and they openly brag about that.

 

[PCmor7]

Let's take your bad take apart a little bit more, Beast.

First, your side is the one that keeps pushing for state's rights. You're all about "various edicts" in every other case. But this? States' rights are the problem now that kept Trump from getting the job done? Too rich.

He's the president. His job is to handle it. He didn't. We employ him. If he's a clerk in our store and his main job is to make sure something is on the shelves or the prices are correctly marked, we wouldn't excuse him for not getting it done.

The Obama carryover to Trump is very important because the economic trends were progressing at the exact same curve as Obama's until COVID came and Trump botched it in the worst way possible.

And, again, Biden took over and our recovery surpassed that of the same countries that were doing better than us when Trump was president.

But, yeah, let's give a guy who was objectively one of the most failed presidents of all time another chance because it hurts your feelings to see him lose.

 

[PCmor7]

He failed in that he promoted the fast tracking of a shitty treatment that has brought nothing but harm. Even Biden and the ladies on The View were saying they didn't want to be first in line to get it, until they decided that was not going to be the left's position. And he surrounded himself with swamp rats.

But now he's endorsed RFK Jr who was calling this stuff out from the start.

Even though Trump is flawed, power must be kept from the hands of the Democraps, because they are the front of an corrupt establishment. The Democraps = the Neocons, that's why Dick Cheany loves them, and they openly brag about that.

Pfft, millions dead, millions of other lives ruined, despots emboldened on the world stage. He couldn't get his wall done. He couldn't even get his insurrection done.

He's a failure, Beast. A total failure.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

There are plenty of people who are uninterested in radical change in either direction, who are happy with a warm place to sleep and a full stomach.

Campaigns are designed to sniff out available votes, it doesn't always work out, but if she is 'moving to the center', it's because that's where they believe the available votes are.

barfo

Excuse my hyperbole. Yes, there are some who don't want any change. That's usually reserved by the elite and the media who doesn't give the full picture - such as calling medicare for all a radical left position. It's not - it's polling at 80% of the country.

Yes, those same consultants that ran Hillary's campaign sound like they're at it again for Kamala. Voting against the other guy isn't enough anymore. Give us something to vote for.

No change on the genocide. No fundamental change on economics. No fundamental change on health care. Incrementalism will be the death of the country.

But go on...

 

[barfo]

Excuse my hyperbole. Yes, there are some who don't want any change. That's usually reserved by the elite and the media who doesn't give the full picture - such as calling medicare for all a radical left position. It's not - it's polling at 80% of the country.

Yes, those same consultants that ran Hillary's campaign sound like they're at it again for Kamala. Voting against the other guy isn't enough anymore. Give us something to vote for.

No change on the genocide. No fundamental change on economics. No fundamental change on health care. Incrementalism will be the death of the country.

But go on...

The goal of the campaign is to win, not to make you happy
Maybe they are blowing it, as you say. We'll see.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

There are plenty of people who are uninterested in radical change in either direction, who are happy with a warm place to sleep and a full stomach.

Campaigns are designed to sniff out available votes, it doesn't always work out, but if she is 'moving to the center', it's because that's where they believe the available votes are.

barfo

Well... that's where the lobbyists who fund her campaign tell her the votes are...

 

[Sheldon Shape]

The goal of the campaign is to win, not to make you happy
Maybe they are blowing it, as you say. We'll see.

barfo

I don't vote for genocide enablers. That's not my cup of tea. Maybe yours but not mine.

I prefer her winning. Don't take it from me. Look at the polling.

 

[barfo]

Well... that's where the lobbyists who fund her campaign tell her the votes are...

Pretty sure that's not the way it works.

The lobbyists are more likely to say they won't give her money if she doesn't support X, Y, Z. Lobbyists don't give a shit about votes.

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Pretty sure that's not the way it works.

The lobbyists are more likely to say they won't give her money if she doesn't support X, Y, Z. Lobbyists don't give a shit about votes.

barfo

And you don't think her team knows that and wants to stay employed?

They are paid by those lobbyists.

 

[barfo]

I don't vote for genocide enablers. That's not my cup of tea. Maybe yours but not mine.

I prefer her winning. Don't take it from me. Look at the polling.

I'm looking at the polling, but polling depends on a whole lot of things, and is not entirely reliable in any case.

You prefer her winning, but are not willing to vote for her? Bold strategy, Cotton.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I'm looking at the polling, but polling depends on a whole lot of things, and is not entirely reliable in any case.

You prefer her winning, but are not willing to vote for her? Bold strategy, Cotton.

barfo

In case reading isn't your strong suit I'll provide it again.

I don't vote for genocide enablers. That's not my cup of tea. Maybe yours but not mine.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

And you don't think her team knows that and wants to stay employed?

They are paid by those lobbyists.

Campaign consultants don't expect to stay on after she's won. They bring the same conventional wisdom that brought don't Clinton. They get paid either way. They aren't particularly invested and many work for either side.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Campaign consultants don't expect to stay on after she's won. They bring the same conventional wisdom that brought don't Clinton. They get paid either way. They aren't particularly invested and many work for either side.

If all of the lobbyists pull their funding they'll have to cut staff and they could get laid off before the election... and then what do you think their prospects would be for working for other well funded campaigns who need lobbyist money?

 

[Phatguysrule]

In case reading isn't your strong suit I'll provide it again.

If you aren't voting for Harris you are voting for Trump. I hate it, but that's just the way it is (unless you live in a heavily dem state that Harris will carry anyway).

I'm sorry, but Trump is far worse than any other president we've had. We must rise up and defeat him, and anybody else like him. We must force the republicans to be less extreme or we'll never be able to move democrats to the left. And burning the whole thing down is not an option.

 

[noknobs]

I don't vote for genocide enablers. That's not my cup of tea. Maybe yours but not mine.

What a load of shit. The current vice president of the US isn't responsible for what's happening in the Middle East, and using that as an excuse not to vote for her is pathetic. Especially when the alternative is a Russian puppet and wannabe dictator.

 

[barfo]

In case reading isn't your strong suit I'll provide it again.

I read it, that's what I was referring to. You want her to win, but you aren't willing to vote for her.

I guess you think sitting on your hands will get you what you want, and perhaps that is true (I think you are in CA, and if so it is indeed the case that your vote is irrelevant).

But if you were in a swing state it would be a very foolish decision.

barfo

 

[barfo]

And you don't think her team knows that and wants to stay employed?

They are paid by those lobbyists.

Lobbyist to campaign staff: "I want the candidate to publicly support X."
Campaign staff to self: "I want to keep my job."
Campaign staff to candidate: "You should say X, because that will get you more votes."

I don't buy that, personally. I think more likely is:

Lobbyist to campaign staff: "I want the candidate to publicly support X."
Campaign staff to self: "I want to keep my job."
Campaign staff to candidate: "You should say X, because Lobbyist might withdraw funding otherwise."

barfo

 

[Phatguysrule]

Lobbyist to campaign staff: "I want the candidate to publicly support X."
Campaign staff to self: "I want to keep my job."
Campaign staff to candidate: "You should say X, because that will get you more votes."

I don't buy that, personally. I think more likely is:

Lobbyist to campaign staff: "I want the candidate to publicly support X."
Campaign staff to self: "I want to keep my job."
Campaign staff to candidate: "You should say X, because Lobbyist might withdraw funding otherwise."

barfo

Nobody has to specifically say any of that. They know who's giving them money. They know what positions they hold. They know when those people give them more or less money.

 

[crandc]

I live in California and my vote is not irrelevant!

 

[Phatguysrule]

I live in California and my vote is not irrelevant!

Definitely not irrelevant. But if you chose to vote for a third party it wouldn't hurt Harris or help Trump.

 

[barfo]

Nobody has to specifically say any of that. They know who's giving them money. They know what positions they hold. They know when those people give them more or less money.

Of course. But this started with you saying that the lobbyists would tell the campaign where the votes are.

barfo

 

[crandc]

Tim Walz: the only thing Trump manufactured is bullshit.

I really like him.
And I am voting Harris/Walz. I am working in campaign office seven days a week except Yom Kippur.

 

[Phatguysrule]

Of course. But this started with you saying that the lobbyists would tell the campaign where the votes are.

barfo

You can tell people what you will or will not do without speaking a word. As you are very well aware.

Especially when it comes to their paychecks.