OFFICIAL Around The NBA Thread- December 2020

[Labinot41]

I feel ya but what do u do? Let him walk?

Yeah Trent is a must keeper, if he becomes too expensive, it is actually a good sign because that means he improved more so we can move on from CJ and Trent can become a starter

 

[blazerkor]

And Trent turned down 53 million c'mon man

Trent turned down 53 over 4 years... so 13M a season. Kuzma signed a three year version of the same deal. Trent is betting on himself and we'll see if it pays off.

 

[blazerkor]

Would you give Gobert 207M if he is a Blazers 2 time DPOY or let him walk?

I'll take door number 3... you put his ass on the trading block and get what you get. It's not an either pay or let them walk situation... ever. You offer them the extension that makes sense for your team and if they don't take it you trade them, unless they're restricted.

 

[RR7]

Trent turned down 53 over 4 years... so 13M a season. Kuzma signed a three year version of the same deal. Trent is betting on himself and we'll see if it pays off.

Trent betting on himself because he knows 3 and D guys are always in high demand.
Kuzma took the money because he's overrated as hell, and if he went out and threw up 12 and 5 with crap shooting and ugly and negative advanced numbers again, he knows he's not seeing that much. LA shine would fade.

 

[Blazinaway]

Yeah Trent is a must keeper, if he becomes too expensive, it is actually a good sign because that means he improved more so we can move on from CJ and Trent can become a starter

Problem for next yr is its gonna be a bit like 2016 with a quite a bit of FA money available and a lot of the really good players that were going to be FA's now off the mkt, so guys like Trent if they have a good/solid yr could get very over paid. Good for decent FA's and not good for teams who need to retain their FA's

 

[AldoTrapani]

Yeah Trent is a must keeper, if he becomes too expensive, it is actually a good sign because that means he improved more so we can move on from CJ and Trent can become a starter

You need all the talent you can accumulate though. You gain Trent but lose cj it’s back to square one again because now you need a side kick for Dame

 

[wizenheimer]

if you look at Kuzma's numbers, his PER, TS%, winshare/48, BPM, and VORP have all fallen each year in his three years in the league. That's not the trend you want to see for a 24 year old player

 

[Wizard Mentor]

Not a difference maker? How do you figure? His WS, BPM, VORP--basically any advanced stat that attempted to measure overall on-court impact shows him to be a difference-maker. I'd venture to say that he's more important to the Jazz' success than Mitchell is.

Gobert as the star of your team isn't a playoff team, nor does his presence catapult you to the conference finals.

I'm not saying he's not good, he is - so is CJ.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I hear you and the problem I had when he came out with his demand for the supermax is still there. He isn't multifaceted enough to get that kind of money. Yes he's an all NBA center but I am expecting that we get Nurk to re-sign for in the neighborhood of 20-25 million and if he won't go for an extension like that this offseason, as much as I love Nurk, you ship his ass out of here for the best offer.

Utah should not have done this deal. They should have put Gobert on the trading block and seen what they could get for him as soon as he said he wasn't taking less than this. I don't think they are a championship team with him. I do think they could get some return value for him that would keep them in the playoffs. As it stands they will be around 126 million if Gobert's contract starts at 36 million but they will only have ten roster spots filled... so they'll have to go even further above the cap to fill the roster.

If they fill it out with min level players then they'll stay under the tax and have a rotation of Clarkson, Mitchell, Bogdanovic, O'Neal, Gobert, Engles, Favors and I guess someone they get using the MLE if they don't mind paying some tax. I think they'll have to let Conley walk or maybe they'll go way over the tax and re-sign him for whatever he's worth at this point... which should be far less than he's getting paid.

I just don't get it. I wouldn't think a small market team like this with an owner that's worth just over a billion could afford to commit over sixty million a season to Mitchell and Gobert.

I agree with your point that Gobert may be overpaid and prevent the Jazz from building a contender.

But market size or owner worth doesn't matter much, basically all but a couple NBA teams won't repeatedly go deep into the luxury tax. If Gobert is overpaid in Utah its the same drag on the teams chance to win as in Miami, Houston, New York, or Chicago, etc.

The Blazers committed $80 million per season to Dame and CJ.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

I'll take door number 3... you put his ass on the trading block and get what you get. It's not an either pay or let them walk situation... ever. You offer them the extension that makes sense for your team and if they don't take it you trade them, unless they're restricted.

The Pistons did that with Drummond and got a second round pick.

You never 100% make or don't make a trade, it depends what the team will get in return. Even without an extension on an expiring deal a player such as Nurk has value. There is no guarantee a team will trade more compensation back to the Blazeres than 1 year plus bird rights of a player is worth. You factor in the value of players bird rights in your valuation, maybe its only a little bit above zero or maybe its worth much more.

This idea that we trade players on one year deals 100% of the time regardless of the return is stupid.

 

[SharpesTriumph]

Problem for next yr is its gonna be a bit like 2016 with a quite a bit of FA money available and a lot of the really good players that were going to be FA's now off the mkt, so guys like Trent if they have a good/solid yr could get very over paid. Good for decent FA's and not good for teams who need to retain their FA's

Yes with all the stars resigning we might see some really bad contracts. DJJ and Trent could be gone, or I say possibly should be gone.

Although maybe the team can ultimately work out a deal that both sides are happy with.

I guess some posters think we should trade them now so we don't have any chance of losing them for nothing.

 

[B-Roy]

The Gobert contract is fine IMO. His on/off numbers have always been spectacular and he's probably the best roll big in the league.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

Gobert as the star of your team isn't a playoff team, nor does his presence catapult you to the conference finals.

I'm not saying he's not good, he is - so is CJ.

Gobert is the star of the Jazz and they are a playoff team.

 

[THE HCP]

Donovan Mitchell on Line 1.........

 

[B-Roy]

Gobert as the star of your team isn't a playoff team, nor does his presence catapult you to the conference finals.

I'm not saying he's not good, he is - so is CJ.

You're crazy. Gobert is way more impactful than CJ by almost every metric. Sure he may not carry you to the playoffs, but he definitely contributes more to winning. The comparison is completely unfair to Gobert.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Gobert as the star of your team isn't a playoff team, nor does his presence catapult you to the conference finals.

I'm not saying he's not good, he is - so is CJ.

I'm not saying Gobert is (or should be) the "star" of any team; but I don't think it's unreasonable to say that he's in the top 30 in the league in terms of overall impact on the scoreboard. So I guess it depends on what you're paying for--star power, or wins.

 

[blazerkor]

I agree with your point that Gobert may be overpaid and prevent the Jazz from building a contender.

But market size or owner worth doesn't matter much, basically all but a couple NBA teams won't repeatedly go deep into the luxury tax. If Gobert is overpaid in Utah its the same drag on the teams chance to win as in Miami, Houston, New York, or Chicago, etc.

The Blazers committed $80 million per season to Dame and CJ.

The second half of our commitment to our back court (CJ's contract) was a bigger mistake than the Jazz just made with Gobert. The reason why I say that is not to say that Gobert's skill set is more valuable than CJ's because getting buckets is, will and always has been the greatest need a team can have, so CJ's ability to do that in such a variety of ways is just as valuable to a team as Gobert's inside specialization. The good thing for the Jazz is that Gobert and Mitchell are the opposite of redundant.

The bad thing for both Utah and us is that you can't pay Gobert 20 million more than Jarrett Allen is worth for doing the same thing he does but doing it only 20% better. The valuation doesn't match up and the same thing could be said about CJ and a guy like LouWill or formerly Jamal Crawford. The fact is both guys do specialized things at an elite level that others can do at just one tier below them for 50% the cost.

You're right, I was wrong about market size but I'm not wrong about an owner's financial situation. Jody can afford to make these mistakes a lot more than Ryan Smith because Jody Allen can afford to make any financial mistake exponentially more times than a person like Smith. A person like Allen who is worth around 20 billion has far more than 20 times the opportunities to use those assets than someone like Smith does with around 1 billion... so that does make the mistake worse as an individual but you're right it's just as big of a mistake for that Blazers as it is for the Jazz as insulated entities when looking at it from a purely financial perspective and forgetting about competitive shit.

 

[blazerkor]

Gobert is the star of the Jazz and they are a playoff team.

Donovan Mitchell on Line 1.........

If I had to start a team and had to choose between Mitchell or Gobert... it would be a tough decision which means that Gobert is not the clear "star of the Jazz" he's a co-lead for sure... he's in no way carrying that team or even a majority of the weight for that team.

Edit: I'd add to that, that you can do what we have done and Utah has done and invest 50% or more of your salary cap into two players but they just have to be way better players. It's working out pretty well for the Lakers but Dame is the only player of the four that Utah and us have that is in the same stratosphere as LeBron and AD and still Dame isn't as good as those two.

 

[blazerkor]

The Pistons did that with Drummond and got a second round pick.

You never 100% make or don't make a trade, it depends what the team will get in return. Even without an extension on an expiring deal a player such as Nurk has value. There is no guarantee a team will trade more compensation back to the Blazeres than 1 year plus bird rights of a player is worth. You factor in the value of players bird rights in your valuation, maybe its only a little bit above zero or maybe its worth much more.

This idea that we trade players on one year deals 100% of the time regardless of the return is stupid.

If Klutch thinks they can get Nurk more than he's worth... we might be OK making that gamble if we aren't overpaying CJ at that point but if we still have CJ and are committed to keeping him... and Nurk turns down the best we can afford to pay him, then we put Nurk on the block and take any offer that makes sense. A second round pick obviously doesn't equal the value Nurk would bring that final season but I think there's a good chance we could get value that between next season and going forward would make sense.

 

[B-Roy]

The second half of our commitment to our back court (CJ's contract) was a bigger mistake than the Jazz just made with Gobert. The reason why I say that is not to say that Gobert's skill set is more valuable than CJ's because getting buckets is, will and always has been the greatest need a team can have, so CJ's ability to do that in such a variety of ways is just as valuable to a team as Gobert's inside specialization. The good thing for the Jazz is that Gobert and Mitchell are the opposite of redundant.

This is an absolutely stupid take. I can't believe I just read this.

 

[THE HCP]

What the fuck!!!!
This dude has played 165 games and averages 9/2/2!!!

 

[Hoopguru]

What the fuck!!!!
This dude has played 165 games and averages 9/2/2!!!

Sets a bar for Trent. They both are shooters and shooters are a premium in the league.
If Trent would accept a 4 year/64m that would be terrific. This might get it moving along?

 

[blazerkor]

This is an absolutely stupid take. I can't believe I just read this.

What specific absolute stupidity do you have an issue with? Do you think that it's smart to invest half of your salary into two redundant players? Do you think that CJ and Gobert are more than just elite specialists? Do you think that CJ was a better extension for us than Gobert is for them?

 

[Chris Craig]

What the fuck!!!!
This dude has played 165 games and averages 9/2/2!!!

$16 million a year for Kennard? WTF

 

[Chris Craig]

Do you think that CJ was a better extension for us than Gobert is for them?

I think ultimately yes. When the Blazers trade CJ, and they eventually will, the Blazers will get a good package back. Gobert will probably retire a Jazz or be traded in the last year of his contract and won't net as much. He might even walk away in FA and the Jazz will have wasted all that money.

CJ has kept us in the playoffs as has Gobert kept the Jazz, but CJ can still be moved even this season with good value. No one is going to take on Gobert's contract unless its expiring.

 

[Chris Craig]

If Klutch thinks they can get Nurk more than he's worth... we might be OK making that gamble if we aren't overpaying CJ at that point but if we still have CJ and are committed to keeping him... and Nurk turns down the best we can afford to pay him, then we put Nurk on the block and take any offer that makes sense. A second round pick obviously doesn't equal the value Nurk would bring that final season but I think there's a good chance we could get value that between next season and going forward would make sense.

CJ will probably be traded by then making it a bit easier to pay Nurkic. If he wants $20 + million a year he needs to prove he is worth it first.

 

[blazerkor]

I think ultimately yes. When the Blazers trade CJ, and they eventually will, the Blazers will get a good package back. Gobert will probably retire a Jazz or be traded in the last year of his contract and won't net as much. He might even walk away in FA and the Jazz will have wasted all that money.

CJ has kept us in the playoffs as has Gobert kept the Jazz, but CJ can still be moved even this season with good value. No one is going to take on Gobert's contract unless its expiring.

Good point. In that case maybe CJ's will be better and it's also worth pointing out that CJ's is for less money per season, so that does make it a more tradeable asset.

 

[Wizard Mentor]

You're crazy. Gobert is way more impactful than CJ by almost every metric. Sure he may not carry you to the playoffs, but he definitely contributes more to winning. The comparison is completely unfair to Gobert.

I'm crazy and you can't read!

By signing this huge contract to Gobert, the Jazz have decreased their chance of winning a championship, even though it cements their presence in the playoffs for the next several years.

If that's what people like, then congrats, they have it.

 

[B-Roy]

I'm very curious what people's perception of CJ's value is. I've gauged how he's valued from fans and people from other teams and the general consensus is that he's a negative value at his contract. I have him somewhere between neutral and slightly negative. If someone offered a late first and expiring/cap space I would trade him just to get off his deal.

GM's may have a different perception on his value, and it really only takes one team to make a great offer (value is in the eye of the beholder), but I guess it doesn't matter too much since Neil would never consider any deals anyways.

 

[B-Roy]

I'm crazy and you can't read!

By signing this huge contract to Gobert, the Jazz have decreased their chance of winning a championship, even though it cements their presence in the playoffs for the next several years.

If that's what people like, then congrats, they have it.

Agree to disagree then, since the comparison in your post insinuated that Gobert = CJ.

Here's a thought, over the last 3-4 seasons, the Blazers and Jazz have been around the same place in terms of league standing. Only the Blazers have had an MVP candidate the entire time. Now let's take your assumption and say CJ and Gobert cancel each other out. The best player on the Blazers is probably going to start declining, while the best player on the Jazz is already getting better.

Seems to me like even though both teams are in the tier below contending ,the Jazz have a better chance of shooting into the contending tier for a season or two (if everything breaks right) during the duration of Gobert/CJ's huge contracts. That seems like a fine gamble for the Jazz, considering they are the Jazz, and the chance of replacing Gobert with someone better in FA is not going to happen.