Okay hypothetical line-up

[magnifier661]

With all the current Blazers on the roster, let's play hypothetical starting 5. Let's assume that every player isn't injured and will be able to play to their potential; which starting 5 would you love to see?

Mine:

PG: Miller, SG: Roy, SF: Wallace, PF: LMA, Center: Oden.

This actually maybe a stupid thread.

Let's change it to the players that realistically can play to their potential.

PG: Miller, SG: Matthews, SF: Wallace, PF: LMA, Center: Oden

Man if Oden can actually play and actually put up solid numbers AND want to play in Portland; how incredibly strong our starting 5 would look! Even without a healthy Roy.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I see three names that will be here when the lockout lifts and will be ready to go, no ifs ands or buts.

1. LMA
2. Wallace
3. Wesley


if you're feeling generous and think that the Blazers pick up Andre's option (I'd say the odds are relatively high) then it's
4. Andre Miller


Beyond that I guess you can pencil in guys like Armon, Babbit and Williams, but I think everybody else is fully expendable.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I see 2 names that should absolutely be penciled in as starters.

Aldridge
Wallace

No one else deserves a starting spot on this team. If the Blazers keep Miller than him as well, but Matthews and Camby should be upgraded.

 

[magnifier661]

I see 2 names that should absolutely be penciled in as starters.

Aldridge
Wallace

No one else deserves a starting spot on this team. If the Blazers keep Miller than him as well, but Matthews and Camby should be upgraded.

Really Matthews? I beg to differ. He is only two years into the league, and his performance so far for a two year player has been pretty solid.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Really Matthews? I beg to differ. He is only two years into the league, and his performance so far for a two year player has been pretty solid.

To me, he is best suited as a sixth man (Vinnie Johnson type) He doesn't get to the line enough for an upper level starting 2 guard in the NBA, at least IMO. The number I have always thought of as a benchmark is 5 FTA per game. Matthews is well under that, and while it might improve, as of right now, it hasn't.

It's not a crack on Matthews, but IMO, for this team to take the next step, he should be a 6th man

 

[magnifier661]

To me, he is best suited as a sixth man (Vinnie Johnson type) He doesn't get to the line enough for an upper level starting 2 guard in the NBA, at least IMO. The number I have always thought of as a benchmark is 5 FTA per game. Matthews is well under that, and while it might improve, as of right now, it hasn't.

It's not a crack on Matthews, but IMO, for this team to take the next step, he should be a 6th man

I can agree with that. Definitely Matthews needs to develop some hard drives to the basket to be considered a "Starter Caliber" player. That's the funny thing about this team. We rarely get to the line. I've noticed great improvement this season in scoring in the paint; but it boggles my mind that we aren't getting to the line.

 

[Pinwheel1]

To me, he is best suited as a sixth man (Vinnie Johnson type) He doesn't get to the line enough for an upper level starting 2 guard in the NBA, at least IMO. The number I have always thought of as a benchmark is 5 FTA per game. Matthews is well under that, and while it might improve, as of right now, it hasn't.

It's not a crack on Matthews, but IMO, for this team to take the next step, he should be a 6th man

I agree with you. Wallace and LMA are the only two for sure starters.

I would move Wes to the bench with Batum. I would start Roy as i thinks he can compliment LMA and Wallace with his outside shooting and passing. The offense has to go through Miller and LMA though, and Roy will only get 24-26 minutes a game. But he is still the best all around outside shooter on the team.

We need to upgrade at center in addition to Greg and at PG in additon to Miller. I realize it is not easy to obtain as everyone has those needs. So getting them through a trade is very unlikely.

We have to get lucky in the draft with a sleeper. A scoring PG is in vogue. We need one.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I can agree with that. Definitely Matthews needs to develop some hard drives to the basket to be considered a "Starter Caliber" player. That's the funny thing about this team. We rarely get to the line. I've noticed great improvement this season in scoring in the paint; but it boggles my mind that we aren't getting to the line.

Nate's offense is designed to get open jump shots, not put pressure on the defense and officials by cutting to the basket. Even on plays designed to get to the basket, they are from the side. That's great, but it doesn't usually create a bunch of contact

 

[Blazinaway]

To me, he is best suited as a sixth man (Vinnie Johnson type) He doesn't get to the line enough for an upper level starting 2 guard in the NBA, at least IMO. The number I have always thought of as a benchmark is 5 FTA per game. Matthews is well under that, and while it might improve, as of right now, it hasn't.

It's not a crack on Matthews, but IMO, for this team to take the next step, he should be a 6th man

My impression, and it may be wrong, is that Wes got to the line a decent bit more earlier in the season before he injured his ankle - can anyone did up stats on that. It seemed to me he was more agressive in taking it inside, and after the ankle injury he was not.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I agree with you. Wallace and LMA are the only two for sure starters.

I would move Wes to the bench with Batum. I would start Roy as i thinks he can compliment LMA and Wallace with his outside shooting and passing. The offense has to go through Miller and LMA though, and Roy will only get 24-26 minutes a game. But he is still the best all around outside shooter on the team.

We need to upgrade at center in addition to Greg and at PG in additon to Miller. I realize it is not easy to obtain as everyone has those needs. So getting them through a trade is very unlikely.

We have to get lucky in the draft with a sleeper. A scoring PG is in vogue. We need one.

Roy is a very mediocre outside shooter, his real value used to be in his ability to create his own shot because he was an equal threat to finish at the rim or hit an elbow jumper but he doesn't catch and shoot very well and his 3 point percentages are sub-par for a guy you would classify as a "shooter". Secondarily, he's kind of a ball-hog, and when he came back into the lineup there was a clear correlation with fewer touches for LMA -- whether that was LMA deferring or Roy taking opportunities I'm not sure, but he did not enhance his game. Finally his passing came off his ability to create off of the drive, which is now severely hampered, his ability to pass from the perimeter into the post or whatever isn't all that great.

 

[STOMP]

My impression, and it may be wrong, is that Wes got to the line a decent bit more earlier in the season before he injured his ankle - can anyone did up stats on that. It seemed to me he was more agressive in taking it inside, and after the ankle injury he was not.

Wesley first injured his ankle in mid-January and then reaggravated it the beginning of February. Having looked at the season splits before and after both of those two dates didn't seem to make much difference as he pretty consistently averaged just under 4 FTA per game.

I used this great stats website to quickly do this query. Heads up fantasy hoops players... bookmark this site! You can customize the categories measured to match your league.

STOMP

 

[Pinwheel1]

Roy is a very mediocre outside shooter, his real value used to be in his ability to create his own shot because he was an equal threat to finish at the rim or hit an elbow jumper but he doesn't catch and shoot very well and his 3 point percentages are sub-par for a guy you would classify as a "shooter". Secondarily, he's kind of a ball-hog, and when he came back into the lineup there was a clear correlation with fewer touches for LMA -- whether that was LMA deferring or Roy taking opportunities I'm not sure, but he did not enhance his game. Finally his passing came off his ability to create off of the drive, which is now severely hampered, his ability to pass from the perimeter into the post or whatever isn't all that great.

I expected this response. I have read it for the last month. I just don't agree with it. And there is no point in debating it because you either believe it or you don't . And we don't need to turn this into another Roy thread.

But the bottom line is we rarely saw Miller, Roy, LMA, and Wallace in together. But the key is with that lineup the offense has to go through Miller and LMA to work. Not Roy. But I still want him on the floor because as "mediocre" as his outside shot is, he still better than anyone else we have from mid range. Sure Batum, Rudy, and Wes can all hit 3 pt set shots, but if they are contested and have to step in and hit a jumper.......not as good.

If Roy is on the team, he needs to start next year. And I am guessing he will be on the team. I just don't think this off season is going to be condusive to trades while the new CBA is unknown.

 

[Draco]

Miller/Mills
Matthews/Roy
Wallace/Batum
LMA
Oden/ Camby

At the least I would replace Mills with a mediocre free agent, hell all we need is a John Crotty at backup PG for 10mpg. This entire roster could be shaken up, I could see any of Miller, Batum, Camby, or Roy being gone in a few months. I don’t think starting Roy will ever be an option, he won’t be able to play 30mpg so if you start him he’d have to sit out most of the 4th quarter. Would you rather have Roy available during the first 5 minutes or the last 5 minutes? Plus the team is more effective having one of Roy or Miller on the court; if you start both then it would be harder to keep one in the game at all times.

 

[Draco]

I would start Roy as i thinks he can compliment LMA and Wallace with his outside shooting and passing. The offense has to go through Miller and LMA though, and Roy will only get 24-26 minutes a game.

Why would you want to force him into the starting lineup then limit his minutes to 24mpg? So he plays the first and third quarter with the starters then has to sit out all of crunch time?

Have him come off the bench, the bench needs someone who can setup the offense, Roy would have to sacrifice that aspect of his game while playing with Miller/LMA in the start but on the bench he can be more of a ball hog. Think of Travis Outlaws role a few years ago. That is a much better use of Roy's talents then having him parked in the corner to hit 3's while Miller/LMA run the team.

If Roy is hot you can go back to the ISO Roy ball for key minutes in the fourth. That type of ball can be very effective for short periods but not so much when you over use it.

 

[Nikolokolus]

I expected this response. I have read it for the last month. I just don't agree with it. And there is no point in debating it because you either believe it or you don't . And we don't need to turn this into another Roy thread.

But the bottom line is we rarely saw Miller, Roy, LMA, and Wallace in together. But the key is with that lineup the offense has to go through Miller and LMA to work. Not Roy. But I still want him on the floor because as "mediocre" as his outside shot is, he still better than anyone else we have from mid range. Sure Batum, Rudy, and Wes can all hit 3 pt set shots, but if they are contested and have to step in and hit a jumper.......not as good.

If Roy is on the team, he needs to start next year. And I am guessing he will be on the team. I just don't think this off season is going to be condusive to trades while the new CBA is unknown.

Roy is (was?) a scorer, not a shooter. His forte is pulling up off the dribble and creating separation with his step back or cross-over. With his athleticism largely gone and hardly any ability to finish at the rim he's a much more predictable and thus easier cover for opposing defenses and his shooting percentages last year reflect this. I'm not just "inventing" some narrative to dog Roy, he just wasn't a very effective scorer/shooter last year and that's unlikely to get much better.

Lastly, I don't expect him to be traded, I expect him to be waived if there is another amnesty clause included in the new CBA -- which it sounds like it will be.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Roy is (was?) a scorer, not a shooter. His forte is pulling up off the dribble and creating separation with his step back or cross-over. With his athleticism largely gone and hardly any ability to finish at the rim he's a much more predictable and thus easier cover for opposing defenses and his shooting percentages last year reflect this. I'm not just "inventing" some narrative to dog Roy, he just wasn't a very effective scorer/shooter last year and that's unlikely to get much better.Lastly, I don't expect him to be traded, I expect him to be waived if there is another amnesty clause included in the new CBA -- which it sounds like it will be.

I would argue that he not a PG, and the biggest reason that he was ineffective for the most part was due to the fact he was playing a PG. Put him in the line up with tho other scorers and a PG and the focus will not be on Roy.

His step back jumpers looked fine to me unless he is guarded by a bigger player. And with Wallace, LMA and a center on the floor, he seldom will draw the teams best defender. No doubt his health is a huge concern. But I think he will be fine for 3 more years.

I expect the amnesty clause to be different than last time. They would be stupid to make teams waive players while still making them pay the whole amount. I would expect more of a grandfather clause that will just allow one player's contract to not count against the hard cap. But still allow the team to keep the player

 

[Nikolokolus]

I would argue that he not a PG, and the biggest reason that he was ineffective for the most part was due to the fact he was playing a PG. Put him in the line up with tho other scorers and a PG and the focus will not be on Roy.

His step back jumpers looked fine to me unless he is guarded by a bigger player. And with Wallace, LMA and a center on the floor, he seldom will draw the teams best defender. No doubt his health is a huge concern. But I think he will be fine for 3 ore years.

Roy's game has always been about his ball-handling and shot creation as a sorty of psuedo point guard, he's never been a classic off-ball, screen and cut shooting guard, so complaining about him playing "point guard" doesn't really wash for me. Furthermore, forget for a minute the fact that Roy is a total liability on defense and he probably shouldn't start because of that fact alone, but what did you see post surgery in Roy that suggests his shot "looked fine?" he shot 40% from the field and 31% on threes after returning from surgery. If he's going to return to being an effective starter in the NBA he's got some serious work to do transforming his game and also hoping that his bone-on-bone knees hold up.

Take a look at his splits if you don't believe me http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roybr01/splits/2011/

I expect the amnesty clause to be different than last time. They would be stupid to make teams cut players while still making them pay the whole amount. I would expect more of a grandfather clause that will just allow one player's contract to not count against the hard cap. But still allow the team to keep the player

Why do you expect the amnesty clause to be different this time around and where have you read or heard about a provision with those specific details?

Look, I'm not being a "hater," I just think his days of being a star are dead and buried and him even being a quality rotation player doesn't look real likely given the condition of his legs and what we saw last season. If the team can cut bait in a new CBA I think they'll pounce on the opportunity.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Roy's game has always been about his ball-handling and shot creation as a sorty of psuedo point guard, he's never been a classic off-ball, screen and cut shooting guard, so complaining about him playing "point guard" doesn't really wash for me. Furthermore, forget for a minute the fact that Roy is a total liability on defense and he probably shouldn't start because of that fact alone, but what did you see post surgery in Roy that suggests his shot "looked fine?" he shot 40% from the field and 31% on threes after returning from surgery. If he's going to return to being an effective starter in the NBA he's got some serious work to do transforming his game and also hoping that his bone-on-bone knees hold up.

Take a look at his splits if you don't believe me http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/roybr01/splits/2011/



Why do you expect the amnesty clause to be different this time around and where have you read or heard about a provision with those specific details?

Look, I'm not being a "hater," I just think his days of being a star are dead and buried and him even being a quality rotation player doesn't look real likely given the condition of his legs and what we saw last season. If the team can cut bait in a new CBA I think they'll pounce on the opportunity.

The Lakers have 3 players that will combine for $60,000 next season. I don't see teams like this agreeing to waive players. I have not read it anywhere. I just would be surprised if it went down that way.

What did I see from Roy that made me think his shot is fine? Lets start with Dallas game 3.

Look you are a stat guy. I am not. I believe guys who come off the bench have lower %'s because they come in the game cold. I also believe who they play with is a factor. Plus I think him just being on the floor with the threat of going off like he does every 5-7 games will help our offense.

 

[Nikolokolus]

The Lakers have 3 players that will combine for $60,000 next season. I don't see teams like this agreeing to waive players. I have not read it anywhere. I just would be surprised if it went down that way.

What did I see from Roy that made me think his shot is fine? Lets start with Dallas game 3.

Look you are a stat guy. I am not. I believe guys who come off the bench have lower %'s because they come in the game cold. I also believe who they play with is a factor. Plus I think him just being on the floor with the threat of going off like he does every 5-7 games will help our offense.

Bench players usually come off the bench because they are inferior to the players in front of them on the depth chart ... unless they are sixth man scoring type (ala Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford, Ginobli, etc.) And a player that can only "go off" once every 5-7 games is called a scrub not a rotation player.

 

[Pinwheel1]

Bench players usually come off the bench because they are inferior to the players in front of them on the depth chart ... unless they are sixth man scoring type (ala Jason Terry, Jamal Crawford, Ginobli, etc.) And a player that can only "go off" once every 5-7 games is called a scrub not a rotation player.

Scrubs may play once every 5-7 games, but I don't think they "go off" every 5-7 games. You pretty much need to be in the rotation for that.

 

[Nikolokolus]

Scrubs may play once every 5-7 games, but I don't think they "go off" every 5-7 games. You pretty much need to be in the rotation for that.

Why in the world would you pay a player max money when you suspect he's only going to be able to produce at an above average level (were not even talking about star level quality here) about 15% of the games he's going to play in? You can't game plan around that kind of deficiency and you certainly don't want to pay an average of 16 million a year for that ... if you can help it.

 

[Pinwheel1]

They are going to pay it regardless. Even with an amnesty clause they are going to pay it. So you might as well keep him. He is a solid player, who on occasion plays awesome. Which is still more often then most players do.

 

[Nikolokolus]

They are going to pay it regardless. Even with an amnesty clause they are going to pay it. So you might as well keep him. He is a solid player, who on occasion plays awesome. Which is still more often then most players do.

There's a few problems here. Yes you may have to pay it regardless, but you won't be paying luxury tax on the amount his contract pushes us over the limit; that really adds up when the team is already 5 million over the line. Secondly, Roy has been more disruptive than helpful. He's not been happy with a reduced role, he's taken frequent shots at teammates regarding his role, shots, etc. ... that negative crap adds up and can create a toxic environment in a locker room. And lastly, he has NOT been a solid player, his shooting percentages are in the toilet, he can barely guard a chair and he's averaging one good (not even great) game about 1 in 10 outings.

For a scorer (versus say a defensive stopper) his production is well below what most players in a similar role generate. Even if his contract wasn't as big as it is, and was say only for the MLE, he'd still be wildly overpaid for what he actually produces on the court.

It pains me to say it because Roy was spectacular to watch at his peak, but he's barely a shadow of himself now; he is playing at the level you'd expect a d-league call-up to produce at

 

[Draco]

It pains me to say it because Roy was spectacular to watch at his peak, but he's barely a shadow of himself now; he is playing at the level you'd expect a d-league call-up to produce at

He averaged 9 PPG in the playoffs. Thats solid production from a bench player but very replaceable.

 

[MARIS61]

Sergio/Andre
Rudy/Wes
Gerald/Nic
LaMarcus/New guy
New guy/Marcus