Omar Mateen, mass shooter.

[stampedehero]

So you are ok with semi automatic pistols with high capacity magazines as long as they dont look scary like an evil ar-15?

>If it kills or damages a person with the use of multiple rounds, it fits the category. The first weapon capable of destroying life instantaneously was the Gatling gun invented by Doctor Gatling who wished it never to be used due to its effects. What an IDIOT! It was used against the American Indians. You would find the advanced versions on Naval destroyers and in the Warthog. The bullets are now made of strong armour piercing Titanium.

Hiram Maxim invented the machine gun and sold it to European customers just before WWI where clueless leaders ordered their men to charge into the bullet field. Maxim knew about human traits of supremacy and how that would result in personal profit.
During WW2 the Nazi paratroopers held the first designed mobile assault weapon called the Sturm Guevere (sp).

The caliber of rounds exceeded a standard .22 so that the ammo would be essential for the kill effects of the weapons. I never saw a .22 caliber assault weapon. The 7.62 mm is a NATO standard for all the various weapons produced by their members. SWAT teams NEED "Knock down power"
Sheed: Have you seen a .22 caliber round intended for assault weapons? However, multiple magazine weapons can always be assault weapons. If it kills it works.

Sensible gun owners would not fantasize about human targets. Believe me I had various weapons in my hands and never had a urge to kill. I fired the MI to the Carbine, AR-16 and AK-47 but I don't own multiple round magazine class weapons.

A Ruger .22 caliber target pistol or a Beretta is a fine weapon to use on the range because the ammo was/is cheaper. That's where weapons belong. Hopefully, the guy next to you is sane.

 

[stampedehero]

http://kdvr.com/2016/06/14/gun-sales-surge-after-orlando-shooting/

The Pink Pistols is a national gun club for gays and lesbians. It saw its membership soar from about 1,500 members on Saturday to 3,500 on Monday.

Dozens of new chapters are springing up, including one Smith is creating in Colorado Springs. He said it’s something he feels compelled to do, even though he’s heterosexual.

“I look at it as a disenfranchised minority that needs someone who’s willing to say I’m a resource who’s here and willing to help,” he said.

Another chapter also appears to be forming in the Denver area. The Pink Pistols typically meet on a regular basis at firing ranges to practice shooting.

Denny: There is a shooting range in {Arizona I believe} where you could grapple a 50 cal and waste concrete block to junk cars. Pink Pistol club members may wander about in this place as long as they don't tell the hard core members that they like them......

 

[Further]

the .22 that you seem to think are fine, and the AR15 have almost the same caliber bullet, .22 vs .223. Difference is the length and mostly the power behind it. The .223 is not a big bullet and yet it is the most common "assault-style" ammo out there because, like the .22, it is cheap and effective. The bullet tends to tumble once it enters a target, so the excessive speed, great accuracy, tumbling and minimal kick make this a fun round to play with and a deadly round to use. I point this out, because it does demonstrate that making restrictions on firearms or ammo is very difficult to do logistically because there really aren't simple categories to delineate what should/shouldn't be permitted. The .223 round is also a very common hunting round, great for those mid-sized animals.

No full-auto, that's already in place so no worries. Aside from that the only firearm category that I think could make sense would be capacity. In California you can't have a firearm that can hold more than 10 rounds. This could be a viable restriction, but it will only slow down these mass shootings, it won't do anything to reduce the vast majority of gun violence. It's rare that most killings go past 10 rounds.

So what restrictions make sense if it's not the ammo, and it's not the gun? I think the restrictions have to come in sales. All sales should have to be made from licensed dealers, not person to person (which is how I have bought a couple guns). There should be methods to restrict people suspected of violence like being on the no-fly list. Doctors and perhaps parents of adults should be able petition to remove or place a hold on ones rights to buy. Purchases should be tracked and unlawful sales should be prosecuted with regularity.

On the other hand, get rid of the restrictions that have been put in place to placate the anti-gun people if those restrictions have no actual benefit behind them, like if the gun "looks scary" vs how it operates.

 

[Further]

oops

 

[Denny Crane]

Denny: There is a shooting range in {Arizona I believe} where you could grapple a 50 cal and waste concrete block to junk cars. Pink Pistol club members may wander about in this place as long as they don't tell the hard core members that they like them......

The shooting sounds like fun.

The pink pistol club is gays arming themselves. Good for them.

I've never shot a gun. Don't care to. I have friends who do. I don't think they're a risk to anyone.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

All of these new proposals and new ideas remind me of a mechanic who replaces parts until he gets lucky and finds the fix. Ironically people call that "shotgunning"

 

[MarAzul]

Massacring every last man, woman, and child of the losers of military battles.

Jesus taught the Old Testament, too. See further's citations above.

Nope. Jesus didn't teach that stuff about massacres. The passage further referred to seems to me, to be about the 10 commandments of Moses, and continues on about how men might
comply with those commandments in their heart.

Like I say, I am no expert in this area, I can only relay what I think I have learned of the religion. The books with the massacres are interesting to me, why are they part of the cannon?
Not sure I have an answer except it is part of the documented Hebrew history. Probably written by Rabbis of Judah or Israel or both. Both would account for the same tales being written twice with slightly different slants. Here I might get myself in trouble with the Christian too. Ha! Have both the Christians and the Atheist on my case! Sounds like progress.

The book, "Who Wrote the Bible" gives some possibly good insight on these books of the Torah. They are part of the Torah which I think the Jews consider the word of God. I do not, and I do not know why a Christian would. In reality they probably are tales written by a Hebrew Rabbi perhaps for historical purpose or historical embellishment. I don't know.

Jesus did not seem to address this area at all in any of his teachings. However Muhammad did, whether overt or not, he taught not to massacre all of the people when sacking the place. He advocated to take them as slaves. It is interesting to note there is a big difference here between Al-qeda and ISIS. Ben Laden taught restraint on the killing as Muhammad taught, where as ISIS seem to leave the rabble to do as they will. There is an article written about this somewhere, I forgot where.

 

[MarAzul]

.223 is not a big bullet and yet it is the most common "assault-style" ammo out there

Naw! The AK47 is a full auto 30. caliber, far and away the most common assault rifle in the world. Ammo is cheap and plentiful. My old Thompson is expensive to shoot and the magazines
are heavy with 230 grain bullets.

I have owned a Ruger .223 for 35 years. It rather mystifies me why I should give it up now? Never shot a person with it yet, not to say I wouldn't if needed. I sure did in a pack of coyotes though
a couple of different times. Yep, I used 30 round magazines, but I prefer the 20s, as the weapon is a little more handy with those in place.

 

[Further]

Naw! The AK47 is a full auto 30. caliber, far and away the most common assault rifle in the world. Ammo is cheap and plentiful. My old Thompson is expensive to shoot and the magazines
are heavy with 230 grain bullets.

I have own a Ruger .223 for 35 years. It rather mystifies me why I should give it up now? Never shot a person with it yet, not to say I wouldn't if needed. I sure did in a pack of coyotes though
a couple of different times. Yep, I used 30 round magazines, but I prefer the 20s, as the weapon is a little more handy with those in place.

I could have clarified that I was talking about in America for the general public. .223 are very common here. I don't even own a .223 rifle but I still have a few hundred rounds for some reason. I dig going target shooting with an AR-15 though, so easy to be precise with over and over. Sure, a 308 is going to be fun and even more accurate, but the rounds cost twice as much, and those are even pretty cheap compared to some of the less common rounds. Not to mention the recoil on that 308 is going to be much more.

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

Once again, my simple but challenging questions trying to understand why christians want to disavow the OT and what the rationale is is ignored.

Instead, the messenger is attacked saying he hasn't opened himself up to the message and he is just a hater. That he hasn't studied the word so he isn't worth addressing. Looks like you are painting me with a broad brush and making assumptions about how much I know about the bible.

Just because someone doesn't like your position doesn't mean they can't be swayed or come to some understanding, so why you ignore my honest questions -- ones I honestly want to know because I cant find answers elsewhere -- is rather frustrating. Yes, I think the bible overall is disturbing. No, I do think there is some universal truths as well as factual history. Yes, I think that Jesus positive message is a great thing to follow. Just tell me what the justification is for some christians to want to pick and choose parts of the bible to accept as useful and other parts they ignore.

Lastly, if you believe in Jonah literally living in a whale, I guess there is no point in talking further. Sorry if that comes off as rude, but being politically correct is a waste of time. Let us just cut to the chase, shall we?

 

[MarAzul]

I don't even own a .223 rifle but I still have a few hundred rounds for some reason. I dig going target shooting with an AR-15 though, so easy to be precise with over and over.

I don't target shoot at all anymore, but having the fire power on hand is prudent in my view. The .223 round is real nice round when you need a high rate of accurate fire. When I had the ranch
I encouraged geese to nest in the area, I had three rather large ponds. One was about 5 acres. With those and grain field right near the ponds it was and ideal place for raising a new generation of
geese, except for the coyotes. When first families began there, I kept a close watch when they were beginning to feed in the grain, the young ones were quite vulnerable to the predictors out in the open and several yards from water. About the second day or so of feeding, a pack of about seven coyotes began closing in. The geese were about 200, maybe 220 yard away from me and I let the coyotes sneak in to about 250 yards . The geese were still not aware of them yet although a pair of Ganders were on watch. I opened up on the coyotes with a 30 round magazine in the Ruger.
Got one on the first shot and the rest hot footed it directly away. Got two more with rapid fire, as they retreated .

They tried again the next day, and I got two more. The geese finished raising the young, I was please to watch them when flight training began. When I left the ranch, there were probably 60 pairs nesting there that year. The coyotes learn not to fuck with them pretty fast, I should have started the training when they began taking my chickens and ducks. But, oh well, not the Geese.

Oh btw, I will take those .223 rounds off your hands, since you have no need.

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

Back to topic.

The shooter lived in an abusive family and was violent himself by many accounts from a young age, elementary school in fact.

His father had videos on youtube of himself supporting the taliban in some fashion (I havent seen the videos yet myself). Allegedly he didn't respect the female teachers at his son's school.

So while similar behavior is not a rarity among Americans, we can say that the culture of his upbringing has some impact on his behavior and it is not ideal. Part of the problem falls on the father for apparently not respecting the opinions of women. This is ingrained in islam. This is a huge problem.

Here is an example of how absurd it can get. True story from my own circle. Patient dies, female family members won't make decision about what to do with dead body because it is not the place of the woman. Body stays in room taking up a bed in the hospital until male family members can drive a very long distance (approx 700 miles) to get to the hospital . They take care of it when they arrive in short order. Something they could of told the females to say while on the phone with them. But it was not the place of the female to interact with the doctors. And no it wasnt a language issue or not close enough family member etc.

Anyway, the lack of respect given to women is not in line with modern society and has wide ranging negative consequences. If the shooters father was different in this one way we certainly can't say that his son would have never been troubled or done the things he did, but it certainly is another factor in his makeup and upbringing and there is no positive that can come from such backwards thinking.

To borrow a phrase, "Thanks Islam"

So, apparently the father was the one abused physically by his wife. Perhaps she would not have been motivated to strike him if he and the culture were treating them with proper attitudes. Yeah, yeah, no guarantee since even when you give someone all the respect in the world they can still lash out. But if I were to put myself in the shoes of these women I would have another set of stresses to feed on when an argument arose.

 

[MarAzul]

Yes, I think the bible overall is disturbing. No, I do think there is some universal truths as well as factual history. Yes, I think that Jesus positive message is a great thing to follow. Just tell me what the justification is for some christians to want to pick and choose parts of the bible to accept as useful and other parts they ignore

I can not answer for a Christian, but it seems to me you have already answered your own questions, and I think a Christian should arrive at similar answers.
Yes the bible, especially the Torah would be disturbing if taken to heart, as absolute Gospel truth. That is the only way the teachings of Jesus makes sense. Now why the differences between Christians? Who can't answer? Other than why such a broad range of differences between men. Or Why such differences on how Conservatives see the attacks these days and the way Liberals see these same attacks. We don't see the same images from the same events, we do not hear the same words, because we listen for different words. We don't read the same things. We don't differentiate from the same data. We are built different

One statement in the Bible that stumped me in my early days, was the one about the Jews being Gods chosen people. Now why would a lad of Scottish back ground take up the Christian religion?
Indeed, why would anyone not of Jewish decent become a Christian? Ah! Not to worry, Jesus teaches those that will listen (read) good stuff and it may well improve them for the good of all.
I simply think that those that teach, the whole thing is the word of god, are in error and haven't given the whole thing the sufficient thought. But, perhaps they will. I hear many people claim
they have an education! That always catches my attention as a curious thing to say. Education is a lifetime process that is never achieved.

 

[Denny Crane]

the .22 that you seem to think are fine, and the AR15 have almost the same caliber bullet, .22 vs .223. Difference is the length and mostly the power behind it. The .223 is not a big bullet and yet it is the most common "assault-style" ammo out there because, like the .22, it is cheap and effective. The bullet tends to tumble once it enters a target, so the excessive speed, great accuracy, tumbling and minimal kick make this a fun round to play with and a deadly round to use. I point this out, because it does demonstrate that making restrictions on firearms or ammo is very difficult to do logistically because there really aren't simple categories to delineate what should/shouldn't be permitted. The .223 round is also a very common hunting round, great for those mid-sized animals.

No full-auto, that's already in place so no worries. Aside from that the only firearm category that I think could make sense would be capacity. In California you can't have a firearm that can hold more than 10 rounds. This could be a viable restriction, but it will only slow down these mass shootings, it won't do anything to reduce the vast majority of gun violence. It's rare that most killings go past 10 rounds.

So what restrictions make sense if it's not the ammo, and it's not the gun? I think the restrictions have to come in sales. All sales should have to be made from licensed dealers, not person to person (which is how I have bought a couple guns). There should be methods to restrict people suspected of violence like being on the no-fly list. Doctors and perhaps parents of adults should be able petition to remove or place a hold on ones rights to buy. Purchases should be tracked and unlawful sales should be prosecuted with regularity.

On the other hand, get rid of the restrictions that have been put in place to placate the anti-gun people if those restrictions have no actual benefit behind them, like if the gun "looks scary" vs how it operates.

You do know that the weapon used by the radical Muslim in Orlando was not an AR-15, right?

 

[Bandwagonfansince77]

I can not answer for a Christian, but it seems to me you have already answered your own questions, and I think a Christian should arrive at similar answers.
Yes the bible, especially the Torah would be disturbing if taken to heart, as absolute Gospel truth. That is the only way the teachings of Jesus makes sense. Now why the differences between Christians? Who can't answer? Other than why such a broad range of differences between men. Or Why such differences on how Conservatives see the attacks these days and the way Liberals see these same attacks. We don't see the same images from the same events, we do not hear the same words, because we listen for different words. We don't read the same things. We don't differentiate from the same data. We are built different

One statement in the Bible that stumped me in my early days, was the one about the Jews being Gods chosen people. Now why would a lad of Scottish back ground take up the Christian religion?
Indeed, why would anyone not of Jewish decent become a Christian? Ah! Not to worry, Jesus teaches those that will listen (read) good stuff and it may well improve them for the good of all.
I simply think that those that teach, the whole thing is the word of god, are in error and haven't given the whole thing the sufficient thought. But, perhaps they will. I hear many people claim
they have an education! That always catches my attention as a curious thing to say. Education is a lifetime process that is never achieved.

Thanks for your explanation. Perhaps my questions were rhetorical after all and there is no answer from christians as to why they want to pick and choose other than it being so that they can have their cake and eat it to. It's only human nature and just because folks like me call them on it means nothing. I'm not a believer so my opinions don't matter at all. The system works for those that want to believe. End of story.

I appreciate you guys for humoring me. It's time to kill the religious talk in this thread.

Peace, guys.

 

[stampedehero]

Naw! The AK47 is a full auto 30. caliber, far and away the most common assault rifle in the world. Ammo is cheap and plentiful. My old Thompson is expensive to shoot and the magazines
are heavy with 230 grain bullets.

I have owned a Ruger .223 for 35 years. It rather mystifies me why I should give it up now? Never shot a person with it yet, not to say I wouldn't if needed. I sure did in a pack of coyotes though
a couple of different times. Yep, I used 30 round magazines, but I prefer the 20s, as the weapon is a little more handy with those in place.

Mar Azul Knows....You have a Thompson? Wood stock and much weight but a true classic.
One of my old friends is a dentist and when I first sat in his chair he asked if I shoot. He had over 20 weapons in his basement and loaded his own ammo. He had the classic WW2 Russian sub machine gun. That was fun shooting that on the range. You and I respect the right to own, shoot and also respect human life.

 

[Further]

You do know that the weapon used by the radical Muslim in Orlando was not an AR-15, right?

Yes, but they take the same ammo. I guess the Sig is also designed to take a 300 blackout round, the gun is more collapsible, but aside from that the guns are similar.

 

[crandc]

None of us are experts on Islamic theology so let's not pretend to be, OK? MarAzul has a history of claiming expertise on subjects he knows nothing of. So when he said Christians went beyond Leviticus but Mohammed doubled down I'm skeptical. Most Christians reject the dietary laws in Leviticus that are the heart of Jewish identity (Jews are defined as a people, Christians by faith, which is why Judeo-Christian is an oxymoron) but as far as the antigay sections of Leviticus, I can assure you plenty of Christians still throw them at us. I have no idea if Mohammed "doubled down"; I know he took wives well into old age and literature from the Golden Age of Islam was often extremely erotic (although totally male-centric). Honestly, I don't need an avowed homophobe instructing me on who is most homophobic.

The sports world, with a few exceptions, is following the lead of Republicans and erasing gays and Latinx from the Orlando massacre. The Orlando Magic put out a very general "thoughts and prayers" statements and their web site features tweets from various athletes, none of which mention gays, lesbians, sexual orientation, etc. The statement from the most famous and iconic Magic player, Shaquille O'Neal, was not displayed. Shaq quite explicitly expressed solidarity with gay, lesbian, bi and transgender community and said "love is love". Too controversial, I guess. The Magic CEO praised first responders but never mentioned the victims. The former owner of the Magic, Rich DeVos, was a big donor to antigay organizations. This has been the pattern through most of sports, including Orlando's soccer team. There have been exceptions, the Oakland A's and Tampa Bay Rays both raised funds for victims and openly worked with the LGBTQ community on events. However, the Rays promotional video for their event never mentioned gays. The US men's national soccer team video never mentions gays. The NFL has so far been silent, although Seattle punter Jon Ryan issued a very strong statement and gave it to a bible-thumping homophobe who objected. The athletes who did speak out most strongly, Martina Navratilova, Jason Collins, Michael Sam, Billy Bean - see a pattern here?

Trump is still saying "the gays" love him although our community breaks 3-1 against Trump. Funnily enough, it cost him the endorsement of a Christian minister in New York, who rescinded his endorsement saying the bible is clear, "sodomy" (his word) is the greatest threat to America, not radical Islam.

Speaker Paul Ryan blocked a vote on an amendment barring federal contractors, paid with my tax money, from discriminating due to sexual orientation/gender identity in projects paid for by federal dollars. But we have his "prayers".

 

[MarAzul]

Yes, but they take the same ammo

Geez! So it's the .223 round that is the culprit! Wow! now even my 223 Remington bolt action varmint gun is on the list to take away. See, guys! There is no end to this shit!

 

[barfo]

Geez! So it's the .223 round that is the culprit! Wow! now even my 223 Remington bolt action varmint gun is on the list to take away. See, guys! There is not end this this shit!

Yep. It's hard to even count the number of guns that have been taken away from you, isn't it?

No, the ones you hand out to your neighbors and random strangers don't count.

barfo

 

[MarAzul]

I'm skeptical.

Nice to see I made a little progress.

 

[MarAzul]

hand out to your neighbors

Nope, never lost a one that loaned out. But I see plenty of assholes that want me too lose them for their reasons.

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[Denny Crane]

They wanted so bad to avoid saying "radical Islam" that they embarrassed themselves.

 

[Denny Crane]

 

[e_blazer]

Man, that has to be the mother of all PC fails.

 

[barfo]

And now that we know exactly what that loser said when he called 9-1-1...

we are all safer, right?

barfo

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

And now that we know exactly what that loser said when he called 9-1-1...

we are all safer, right?

barfo

Hahaha, go -------- yourself, you ---------- piece of ---------. I would sooo like to --------- you in the ------------- ------ you ------- mother --------- liberal.

See, couldn't even hurt your feelers I left out so much information you will never figure out.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

My favorite part is the surviving victims bullshit. Your brother dies, but you are fine. Somehow you catch wind that they released these transcripts and now your life is ruined.

 

[bodyman5000 and 1]

None of us are experts on Islamic theology so let's not pretend to be, OK? MarAzul has a history of claiming expertise on subjects he knows nothing of. So when he said Christians went beyond Leviticus but Mohammed doubled down I'm skeptical. Most Christians reject the dietary laws in Leviticus that are the heart of Jewish identity (Jews are defined as a people, Christians by faith, which is why Judeo-Christian is an oxymoron) but as far as the antigay sections of Leviticus, I can assure you plenty of Christians still throw them at us. I have no idea if Mohammed "doubled down"; I know he took wives well into old age and literature from the Golden Age of Islam was often extremely erotic (although totally male-centric). Honestly, I don't need an avowed homophobe instructing me on who is most homophobic.

The sports world, with a few exceptions, is following the lead of Republicans and erasing gays and Latinx from the Orlando massacre. The Orlando Magic put out a very general "thoughts and prayers" statements and their web site features tweets from various athletes, none of which mention gays, lesbians, sexual orientation, etc. The statement from the most famous and iconic Magic player, Shaquille O'Neal, was not displayed. Shaq quite explicitly expressed solidarity with gay, lesbian, bi and transgender community and said "love is love". Too controversial, I guess. The Magic CEO praised first responders but never mentioned the victims. The former owner of the Magic, Rich DeVos, was a big donor to antigay organizations. This has been the pattern through most of sports, including Orlando's soccer team. There have been exceptions, the Oakland A's and Tampa Bay Rays both raised funds for victims and openly worked with the LGBTQ community on events. However, the Rays promotional video for their event never mentioned gays. The US men's national soccer team video never mentions gays. The NFL has so far been silent, although Seattle punter Jon Ryan issued a very strong statement and gave it to a bible-thumping homophobe who objected. The athletes who did speak out most strongly, Martina Navratilova, Jason Collins, Michael Sam, Billy Bean - see a pattern here?

Trump is still saying "the gays" love him although our community breaks 3-1 against Trump. Funnily enough, it cost him the endorsement of a Christian minister in New York, who rescinded his endorsement saying the bible is clear, "sodomy" (his word) is the greatest threat to America, not radical Islam.

Speaker Paul Ryan blocked a vote on an amendment barring federal contractors, paid with my tax money, from discriminating due to sexual orientation/gender identity in projects paid for by federal dollars. But we have his "prayers".

I'm so totally an expert on Islamic theology, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express recently. Well, I am as much of an expert on it as I care to be.