Omar Mateen, mass shooter.

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Too soon?
 
The confusion is the killer was married twice. His first wife has had no contact with him for some years. His second may have had knowledge. I guess it's like Nixon, what did she know and when did she know it? Was he the type of person who always bloviates about the YUUUGE things he is going to do, you know, like Donald Trump, and she did not take it seriously? She is reportedly cooperating with the investigation.

I went to A's Pride Night last night. I was not planning on it since going out in the evening is tough but under the circumstances, decided to anyway. They had, instead of first pitch, a line of 50 people from the gay/lesbian/bi/trans community who passed the ball from hand to hand until Jennifer Azzi carried it to the mound. The Oakland East Bay Gay Men's Chorus sang the national anthem. Honestly people wanted to be celebratory but it's just too soon. Before the game the East Side Club was open and various groups had displays. At a table on health, people were asked questions and if they answered correctly got a prize. I won a bag of condoms and lube!

Trump has "thanked" our community for supporting him. We don't. Muslims stood up and said no killing in our name. Our community stands up and says no hate in our name.

Another Christian minister has preached sermon praising the murders, only saying they should have been executed in public and not a club. It's been said that Trump gives open voice to what used to be said in dog whistles. So did this killer. I agree there is a difference between saying someone should be killed and actually killing, but I can't say they are unconnected.

ISIS is no longer asking supporters to come fight with them. They have been losing territory and several leaders killed. Which is a good thing. Instead they are calling for "lone wolf" attacks. According to law enforcement these are the hardest to prevent. In a group, it's usually the communication that leads to their being caught, but when it's just one person, there is no communication.

Here's a question. Why is it when a white Christian American shoots up people it's treated as an aberration, we hear about his (I don't think there have been any hers) mental health but when a Muslim American shoots up people it's terrorism? This was true even in cases with clear political "messages", like the killings at a Black church or Planned Parenthood clinic. The killer at the church claimed inspiration from white supremacist groups with a history of violence and terrorism. The killer at Planned Parenthood claimed inspiration from anti-abortion extremists with a history of violence and terrorism. But we did not hear those attacks called terrorist, at least in mainstream. So, were they terrorist? If not, why not? What is the difference between killing Black people because they are Black and killing gay people because they are gay?

SF Pride is working with local law enforcement. It's a very peaceful, if big and loud, celebration and usually police presence was minimal; the Pride Committee trains hundreds of safety monitors every year and recruits medical personnel for the (usually minor) emergencies (sunstroke, turned ankles, etc.) This is not usual.
 
crandc said:
Another Christian minister has preached sermon praising the murders, only saying they should have been executed in public and not a club. It's been said that Trump gives open voice to what used to be said in dog whistles. So did this killer. I agree there is a difference between saying someone should be killed and actually killing, but I can't say they are unconnected.
Click to expand...

Jesus disagrees: "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (John 3:15)

I assume that you're referring to the despicable and hateful comments by this nut-job "pastor" in Sacramento http://www.abc10.com/news/local/sac...ist-pastor-praises-orlando-massacre/243211965 As a Christian, I can only say that this guy has no connection to the faith that I love or to any teaching that I've ever heard in any church I've attended. I assume that most Muslims would say the same thing about the hateful teachings and actions of some of the imams and radical fundamentalists. I'd say the distinction is primarily one of degree. There are no doubt haters who call themselves Christians, and this guy is clearly one such individual, but they are the extreme outliers who nearly all Christians would view with disgust. On the other hand, Islamic fundamentalism, with its aim of global jihad, is advocated by millions of Muslims.

Here's a question. Why is it when a white Christian American shoots up people it's treated as an aberration, we hear about his (I don't think there have been any hers) mental health but when a Muslim American shoots up people it's terrorism? This was true even in cases with clear political "messages", like the killings at a Black church or Planned Parenthood clinic. The killer at the church claimed inspiration from white supremacist groups with a history of violence and terrorism. The killer at Planned Parenthood claimed inspiration from anti-abortion extremists with a history of violence and terrorism. But we did not hear those attacks called terrorist, at least in mainstream. So, were they terrorist? If not, why not? What is the difference between killing Black people because they are Black and killing gay people because they are gay?
Click to expand...

It's a reasonable question, and it seems to me that it's one that we ought to think about before attaching labels to acts of violence like the recent one in Orlando or the church shooting in Charleston. thefreedictionary.com defines terrorism as: "The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

In the case of the Charleston shooter, IIRC, he had ties with some white supremacists, but there doesn't appear to be any definitive plan to use this incident to achieve any larger political, religious, or ideological purpose. The motives of the Orlando murderer are still an open question. He apparently claimed allegiance to ISIS and took a couple of trips to the Middle-East that could show a connection to Islamic extremism. OTOH, there are reports that he frequented the bar and may have been conflicted over homosexual tendencies. Nobody has shown, so far, that his actions were directed or planned by ISIS or other organized terrorist groups.

SF Pride is working with local law enforcement. It's a very peaceful, if big and loud, celebration and usually police presence was minimal; the Pride Committee trains hundreds of safety monitors every year and recruits medical personnel for the (usually minor) emergencies (sunstroke, turned ankles, etc.) This is not usual.
Click to expand...

Glad you're enjoying the SF Pride event. I've heard that condoms can be used as water balloons, so that's one idea for your prize. Not sure what to suggest for the lube. ;)
 
Your comments appreciated, e_blazer.

Most of my gay male friends are now married (sigh, we are all old) so giving away condoms is not as easy as it used to be.
 
I just find it very interesting the stark difference in how the attack in Paris was reported compared to the attack in Orlando.

Paris was all about terrorism. Orlando is all about guns.
 
She's just as guilty as him then for not going to the authorities before this happened.
 
Natebishop3 said:
I just find it very interesting the stark difference in how the attack in Paris was reported compared to the attack in Orlando.

Paris was all about terrorism. Orlando is all about guns.
Click to expand...

It appears that they were very different situations. Paris was a coordinated attack, funded and planed by an organization. With bombs and weapons obtained through a criminal organization.

Orlando was more of a guy who thought Isis was neat, hated gays (and himself), and legally bought a few guns.
 
A muslim walks into a gay bar

the bartender says what'll you have

the muslim says "SHOTS FOR EVERYONE"


Too soon?
 
santeesioux said:
She's just as guilty as him then for not going to the authorities before this happened.
Click to expand...

edit: Didn't see the part about her dropping him off to case the place. Please take my following comment in the light of not knowing this apparent fact.

I don't agree with this. If someone you love is planning on doing something horrible and you are made aware of it, society says that you have an obligation to "turn them in", but the reality is that it isn't your plan and it isn't your decision or desire to carry out that plan. If one of my loved ones has a plan like this, I would certainly have to turn them in and would do so with pleasure. But, I know for some people it isn't as simple as that and I respect that their brains are not the same as mine and they process their life however they do. Some people have some sort of gene for loving their family so much, they can't easily do things that would break their trust and love and all that jazz.

I'm saddened that she couldn't weigh the lives of others more than her husband, but look at it like this,

Say, she turns him in. She stands to lose the father of her two children and all of the hardship that incurs. If she is able to convince him to not do it and he doesn't and just continues to be a disgruntled man and eventually gets his shit together and doesn't do anything horrible for the rest of his life... Assuming the reality was something akin to this scenario, I can empathize. But like anything in this world, it's certainly more complicated than that.

Enter conjecture mode:

They both are pissed off about their lives since he has been wrestling with his homosexuality. They are gravitating towards radical Islam as a way to exorcise that desire from his mind. It's not working, so they double down on it and start to get even more in to it. They think ISIS is cool and feel like they have to do something terrible to earn their cred in the afterlife. So, he comes up with this plan and as they get closer to the time to pull it off, she is having second thoughts because she isn't as wacky as he is and she's a mother of two, etc. She gets cold feet and tries to convince him not to do it...

Anyway,... If it turns out she was involved with the plotting of this, then she gotta pay the consequences, no doubt.

Man, I'm conflicted. I really want to keep to my principles of trying to understand the reality of others and walk in their shoes and all that. But, if someone is planning on killing others, you have to step in and man up. What she did, as far as we can tell from the news so far, was cowardly. What a damn shame.

終わり
 
e_blazer said:
Jesus disagrees: "Whoever hates his brother is a murderer: and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." (John 3:15)

I assume that you're referring to the despicable and hateful comments by this nut-job "pastor" in Sacramento http://www.abc10.com/news/local/sac...ist-pastor-praises-orlando-massacre/243211965 As a Christian, I can only say that this guy has no connection to the faith that I love or to any teaching that I've ever heard in any church I've attended. I assume that most Muslims would say the same thing about the hateful teachings and actions of some of the imams and radical fundamentalists. I'd say the distinction is primarily one of degree. There are no doubt haters who call themselves Christians, and this guy is clearly one such individual, but they are the extreme outliers who nearly all Christians would view with disgust. On the other hand, Islamic fundamentalism, with its aim of global jihad, is advocated by millions of Muslims.



It's a reasonable question, and it seems to me that it's one that we ought to think about before attaching labels to acts of violence like the recent one in Orlando or the church shooting in Charleston. thefreedictionary.com defines terrorism as: "The calculated use of unlawful violence or threat of unlawful violence to inculcate fear; intended to coerce or to intimidate governments or societies in the pursuit of goals that are generally political, religious, or ideological."

In the case of the Charleston shooter, IIRC, he had ties with some white supremacists, but there doesn't appear to be any definitive plan to use this incident to achieve any larger political, religious, or ideological purpose. The motives of the Orlando murderer are still an open question. He apparently claimed allegiance to ISIS and took a couple of trips to the Middle-East that could show a connection to Islamic extremism. OTOH, there are reports that he frequented the bar and may have been conflicted over homosexual tendencies. Nobody has shown, so far, that his actions were directed or planned by ISIS or other organized terrorist groups.



Glad you're enjoying the SF Pride event. I've heard that condoms can be used as water balloons, so that's one idea for your prize. Not sure what to suggest for the lube. ;)
Click to expand...

It's a long argument about the role all religions have in giving power to any and all religious nutjobs that do things we don't like. I would love to write that book for you here, but I think I'm too new here to totally wear out my welcome with a treatise on the role religion has in the destruction of humanity.

There are plenty of wonderful people that consider themselves believers in one religion or another, but just because most of you are splendid folk doesn't mean that those that proclaim the same faith and then do things you don't like aren't part of the same stock.

There are many flavors of christianity and one branch will call the others heretics and the reverse as well. Some are pretty open-minded and others are intolerant of anything other than their own ways. So to say that some overzealous nutjobs that make you look bad aren't "real" christians is merely protecting yourself and your variety of religion from criticism. You're throwing your brethren under the bus for your own sake. IMO, all the religious need to own their nutjobs. The policies of your ideology have created this and it should be your duty to clean up the mess instead of whitewashing the ugliness and hoping that will be enough of an argument to divert attention away.

Even the most pleasant variety of religions create a landscape for other idiotic backwards religions to flourish. So I put this question to you faithful out there:

If by some time machine we could look in to the future and see that belief in religion was going to be the foundation for the fall of mankind, would you then be willing to give up religion in your life or would you continue to want to believe even to the point where it were to spell the doom for everyone on Earth?
 
crandc said:
A survivor of the massacre, Alejandro Francisco, wrote an open letter to the killer. http://www.xojane.com/issues/alejandro-francisco-orlando-pulse-survivor-story

Two of the people in hospital are undocumented and worried about paying the bill.

At least one person was not out to his family. He lived, but his longtime boyfriend, who they did not know about, did not. He has now been outed.
Click to expand...

So two people in the country illegally and taxpayers are left to pay their bill. Great. I'm sorry they got shot. I feel awful for the families and loved ones of the people who were killed and injured. We all need to learn to live in peace. That being said, I have no compassion for people in this country illegally.
 
I really have nothing to add to what Mediocre Man said. It is such a great example of how some people hate "others" (undocumented, Muslim) so much that they can have no compassion for their being shot by an insane homophobic terrorist. It's a short jump from not caring about someone's pain to inflicting it.

@e_blazer (tried to tag you but don't know the trick) there are now 7 Christian ministers who have spoken out in favor of these murders. You would say that's a tiny percentage of Christian ministers and you'd be correct. But three presidential candidates, not of some wacky fringe party but of the Republican Party, stood on a platform with ministers who call for the death penalty for homosexuality, although they have not specifically endorsed these murders. Neither the candidates nor the party nor any elected official of the party so far as I know asked them to repudiate these statements, although Muslims are asked repeatedly to repudiate inflammatory remarks. You said that millions of Muslims support the radical element - I don't know exact numbers; I'd bet in a lot of countries most Muslims are just trying to survive. And that the parallel Christian view is just a tiny number. In the West, yes. But not in Asia and Africa. Uganda narrowly missed passing a death penalty for homosexuality after world protests. The bill is not revoked, just tabled. Homosexuality still carries long prison terms. It is also a crime to know someone is gay and not report him/her. In parts of Africa, "corrective rapes" of lesbians are organized by their own mothers and openly supported by church authorities. Nigeria is also debating a kill the gays bill. There are increases in antigay bills and in extralegal violence in large parts of Asia. These are not just local churches; they are organized and often funded by US evangelicals. The US evangelicals have written off the West as a lost cause. Sure, they can pass bills allowing people to refuse service to gays, but know that won't stand up in court. They are reduced to keeping transpeople from using public restrooms. Pretty small potatoes. But in Africa and some areas of Asia are "real" Christians (their words). I have seen rallies in Uganda of thousands of people holding Christian bibles, raising their arms in Christian salute, listening to ministers and cheering and praying for the death penalty for gays. In Russia under the tsars, homosexuality was a crime. The 1917 revolution abolished those laws, not due to any gay movement but because the Bolsheviks opposed laws that imposed state morality. Under Stalin, as part of the counterrevolution, the laws were reinstated. During glasnost they were loosened. When Putin came to power, he reinstated antigay laws and strengthened them; it is a crime in Russia to simply support gay rights. He did this to ally himself with the Russian Orthodox church. Never much of a Christian, he became what I call a "Christian by convenience" (like his admirer Trump). So you just can't let Christain churches off the hook. I know many Christians feel otherwise, but in public life "Christian principles" means antigay. Sorry, but it does, according to them.

Meanwhile...

Donald Trump boasted that "the gays" love him (is there anyone he thinks does not love him?) and said "ask the gays". The hashtag #askthegays has gone viral with "the gays" telling Trump exactly what they think of him. He, last week, had spoken at Faith and Freedom rally where he promised to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn marriage equality, allow people to refuse service to gays if Jesus says so, opposes transgender access to public facilities. Not to mention deporting gays and lesbians to countries where they face extreme persecution.

As to the killers' wife, it's wrong to say she's "as guilty". The most guilty person is the one who pulled the trigger, the only exception being if someone else ordered or hired the hit (think Manson, who never physically killed anyone). She is being investigated and while feelings are running high it's best IMO to withhold judgement until we get all the facts. His first wife said he was an abuser, wife 2 may have been terrified of him. But I don't know, frankly none of us do at this point.
 
So her being terrified of him makes it ok not to speak up and possibly save at least 1 of the 50 lives that were brutally murdered?

Yeah, not buying that. Even if youre terrified you know right from wrong.

Trust me, i dont believe the media whatsoever on most issues so im there with you in not casting all judgement. But she is definitely greatly at fault if what is being reported is true.
 
JFizzleRaider said:
So her being terrified of him makes it ok not to speak up and possibly save at least 1 of the 50 lives that were brutally murdered?

Yeah, not buying that. Even if youre terrified you know right from wrong.

Trust me, i dont believe the media whatsoever on most issues so im there with you in not casting all judgement. But she is definitely greatly at fault if what is being reported is true.
Click to expand...

Not as guilty is not the same as not guilty.

If they had caught Mateen I would be fine with executing him, but I don't think the wife would deserve the same punishment. Life in prison, sure. Death penalty, no.
 
SlyPokerDog said:
Not as guilty is not the same as not guilty.

If they had caught Mateen I would be fine with executing him, but I don't think the wife would deserve the same punishment. Life in prison, sure. Death penalty, no.
Click to expand...
You are correct. not as guilty, but shes still a giant piece of shit if the media reports are correct. Just because she might have been scared of him does not.give her a pass when 50 people ended up dying.
 
crandc said:
I really have nothing to add to what Mediocre Man said. It is such a great example of how some people hate "others" (undocumented, Muslim) so much that they can have no compassion for their being shot by an insane homophobic terrorist. It's a short jump from not caring about someone's pain to inflicting it.

@e_blazer (tried to tag you but don't know the trick) there are now 7 Christian ministers who have spoken out in favor of these murders. You would say that's a tiny percentage of Christian ministers and you'd be correct. But three presidential candidates, not of some wacky fringe party but of the Republican Party, stood on a platform with ministers who call for the death penalty for homosexuality, although they have not specifically endorsed these murders. Neither the candidates nor the party nor any elected official of the party so far as I know asked them to repudiate these statements, although Muslims are asked repeatedly to repudiate inflammatory remarks. You said that millions of Muslims support the radical element - I don't know exact numbers; I'd bet in a lot of countries most Muslims are just trying to survive. And that the parallel Christian view is just a tiny number. In the West, yes. But not in Asia and Africa. Uganda narrowly missed passing a death penalty for homosexuality after world protests. The bill is not revoked, just tabled. Homosexuality still carries long prison terms. It is also a crime to know someone is gay and not report him/her. In parts of Africa, "corrective rapes" of lesbians are organized by their own mothers and openly supported by church authorities. Nigeria is also debating a kill the gays bill. There are increases in antigay bills and in extralegal violence in large parts of Asia. These are not just local churches; they are organized and often funded by US evangelicals. The US evangelicals have written off the West as a lost cause. Sure, they can pass bills allowing people to refuse service to gays, but know that won't stand up in court. They are reduced to keeping transpeople from using public restrooms. Pretty small potatoes. But in Africa and some areas of Asia are "real" Christians (their words). I have seen rallies in Uganda of thousands of people holding Christian bibles, raising their arms in Christian salute, listening to ministers and cheering and praying for the death penalty for gays. In Russia under the tsars, homosexuality was a crime. The 1917 revolution abolished those laws, not due to any gay movement but because the Bolsheviks opposed laws that imposed state morality. Under Stalin, as part of the counterrevolution, the laws were reinstated. During glasnost they were loosened. When Putin came to power, he reinstated antigay laws and strengthened them; it is a crime in Russia to simply support gay rights. He did this to ally himself with the Russian Orthodox church. Never much of a Christian, he became what I call a "Christian by convenience" (like his admirer Trump). So you just can't let Christain churches off the hook. I know many Christians feel otherwise, but in public life "Christian principles" means antigay. Sorry, but it does, according to them.

Meanwhile...

Donald Trump boasted that "the gays" love him (is there anyone he thinks does not love him?) and said "ask the gays". The hashtag #askthegays has gone viral with "the gays" telling Trump exactly what they think of him. He, last week, had spoken at Faith and Freedom rally where he promised to appoint Supreme Court justices that would overturn marriage equality, allow people to refuse service to gays if Jesus says so, opposes transgender access to public facilities. Not to mention deporting gays and lesbians to countries where they face extreme persecution.

As to the killers' wife, it's wrong to say she's "as guilty". The most guilty person is the one who pulled the trigger, the only exception being if someone else ordered or hired the hit (think Manson, who never physically killed anyone). She is being investigated and while feelings are running high it's best IMO to withhold judgement until we get all the facts. His first wife said he was an abuser, wife 2 may have been terrified of him. But I don't know, frankly none of us do at this point.
Click to expand...

&TLDR?
 
JFizzleRaider said:
You are correct. not as guilty, but shes still a giant piece of shit if the media reports are correct. Just because she might have been scared of him does not.give her a pass when 50 people ended up dying.
Click to expand...

Yeah there is no way in hell she deserves a pass if she knew and didn't say shit. Go the freaking police station for gods sake and tell someone. They can at least try to put you in WP.
 
I am not so sure it is moral to hold anything against this woman, certainly not legal.

"As a general rule, you cannot be forced to testify against your spouse in a criminal proceeding. This is known as spousal privilege."

I do believe we should support spousal privilege.

In the bigger picture, in most of these cases where the Muslim goes on attack, there is a high probability that other Muslims know of the support for the radical or even know of the intent to cause mayhem.
They have no privilege.
 
I am not saying she deserves a pass. Just that we don't have sufficient information to determine level of responsibility. I have no problem waiting a few days to judge.

While a person cannot be compelled to testify against a spouse, it is not, so far as I know, illegal for him/her to offer testimony. And this is not court testimony but a police report.

Meanwhile...

An Obama executive order prohibited discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity/expression for federal contractors, you know, the folks paid for with my tax dollars. Congress has been trying to overturn it or at least allow businesses to discriminate if Jesus tells them to (same thing in reality). During the debate a Georgia Congressman Rick Allen read from Romans the passage that " Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them" said he stands by his decision to proclaim gay people worthy of death in the wake of the Orlando massacre. But he offers his "prayers" to the victims, while not mentioning that they are (mostly) gay and Latinx.

FUCK his prayers.
 
crandc said:
I am not saying she deserves a pass. Just that we don't have sufficient information to determine level of responsibility. I have no problem waiting a few days to judge.

While a person cannot be compelled to testify against a spouse, it is not, so far as I know, illegal for him/her to offer testimony. And this is not court testimony but a police report.

Meanwhile...

An Obama executive order prohibited discrimination based on sexual orientation or gender identity/expression for federal contractors, you know, the folks paid for with my tax dollars. Congress has been trying to overturn it or at least allow businesses to discriminate if Jesus tells them to (same thing in reality). During the debate a Georgia Congressman Rick Allen read from Romans the passage that " Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them" said he stands by his decision to proclaim gay people worthy of death in the wake of the Orlando massacre. But he offers his "prayers" to the victims, while not mentioning that they are (mostly) gay and Latinx.

FUCK his prayers.
Click to expand...

The Congressman is Wacko! Not a Christian! His own words condemn him. He may be seeking something to justify his position but his finding does not make him a Christian. Vengeance is mine says the Lord! This surely is more clear,
even to a non Christian like me. But then I am not on the hunt to Condemn a Christian.
 
As near as I can determine, in the Islamic religion, the Koran does not seem to speak directly to homosexuality nor negatively about homosexuals. At least in the copy of the Koran I have that I can computer search.

Negative things, “When a man mounts another man, the throne of God shakes.” are said in Hadith, the sayings of Muhammad or other high powers of the religion.

In my view (a student, not a Christian), Jesus brought forth a reformation of the Jewish religion and that became Christianity.
It seems the man might have studied Buddhism and Hinduism for ideas to soften the Jewish religion in so far as guiding the people in treating one another. Perhaps the salient teaching is the idea of leaving judgement and especially vengeance to God (so men do not need to judge one another). One of the question I had when I began the study was, "Why do men need religion?" This concept caught my attention.

Muhammad also brought a reformation that created Islam, but man he doubled down on the harshness and introduced the exclusionary teaching of Islam. If there is one thing that might be and improvement
it would be, to not to kill everyone when sacking a place.

http://www.radianceweekly.com/171/4...-ii/story-detail/hadith-on-homosexuality.html
 
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