Oregon's "other" assisted suicide

[maxiep]

If this was the first day of taxation in our country, maybe you would have sort of an arguement here, but any extra tax on the wealthy at this point is merely a fractional return in the direction of balance. They have paid less and less and less and less. The poor have paid more and more and more and more. Reagan slashed the overall tax for the wealthiest by more than half and nearly doubled the median taxpayer's bill with his smoke and mirrors tax "reform". What followed was the largest deficit in American

The uber-wealthy in America have never paid a higher percentage in taxes than they used to. The graph has always gone the other way due to credits, deductions, write-offs, depreciation, loopholes, offshore accounts, outsourcing of jobs, foreign bases for American businesses, bribes, tax debt amnesties, tax fraud, healthcare deductions weighted in favor of the wealthy, excused property tax debt like the $45 million transfer of Facebook's Prineville property tax onto the backs of the mostly poor citizens.

You could double all taxes of any kind actually paid by the wealthy without affecting their absurdly lavish lifestyles at all.

They'd still be paying less than they were 50 years ago.

See, that's your problem. You spew complete crap and hope that it's true. Bad news. It's not.

The tax system has never been more progressive. Once the Bush Tax Cuts are repealed for those making over $150K, it's going to get worse.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/od/incometaxandtheirs/a/taxburden06.htm

 

[maxiep]

And Bush's TAX CUTS for the wealthy were also wealth redistribution. Don't remember you crying about that.

Allowing me to keep money I earned is not wealth redistribution. It's called earning money.

And if I pay to see a movie, THAT'S wealth redistribution.

Nope. It's called spending money on something you choose. Is paying taxes a choice? The last time I checked, it wasn't.

Being a capitalist you should be happy, as wealth redistribution is the very definition of capitalism.

The essence of capitalism is choice. I choose where I work, how hard I work, what kind of life I wish to provide for myself and my family. Paying taxes is anti-choice.

Without it, we'd be communists or socialists.

Those in Communist and Socialist systems have fewer choices than those in Capitalist systems.

 

[maxiep]

I disagree about your wealth redistribution...I don't believe it is.

You should pay more because you reap more benefits from the country in the form of greater income than I do.

So, the fact that I've worked harder or made more sacrifices should be shared with those who have chosen to slack? What's my incentive to continue to produce? Stop freeriding. If you want something, get it for yourself.

Additionally, in order to maintain an economy that can produce wage earners like yourself we need a strong economy, which is built in part upon an educated workforce which these taxes are being used to help provide.

Newsflash: People like me who pay a lot in taxes and who don't demand much in the way of services are the ones who maintain a strong economy. A strong economy isn't provided by the Government; it's provided by the private sector. Perhaps those on the Left will figure that out one day.

 

[oldguy]

Yeah, I would too. It would certainly be sad if the WSJ stooped to publishing outright lies to back up their right-wing viewpoints, but it sure appears they did in this case.

Their number is off by more than a factor of two, according to this source.

barfo

Interesting article. Thanks.

Go Blazers

 

[oldguy]

Another way to get close to the WSJ number (although I'd be shocked if this is how they derive it) is this:

1. Take the 2009 State and Local Total Compensation hourly rate from the chart in your source.
2. Multiply by 40 (work week)
3. Multiply by 52 (number of weeks)

1. $39.90
2. $1596
3. $82,992

Compare that to the statement you call off by a factor of two:

"What was really protected was the $83,402 a year average in pay and benefits to Oregon state workers"

It looks like it's off by about $500 to me, and that includes local workers.

Ed O.

I'm not sure what it means in the big picture, but assuming 52 weeks doesn't seem like it would work for teachers. I think they work 10 months (42-43 weeks?). The article notes that educators are a large portion of the public sector. Is that accounted for in the $39.90?

 

[barfo]

So, the fact that I've worked harder or made more sacrifices should be shared with those who have chosen to slack? What's my incentive to continue to produce?

Your incentive is the same as it is now, minus a few dollars in taxes. Are you really going to stop working if your tax bill increases? I'm not.

Stop freeriding. If you want something, get it for yourself.

Do you really think everyone who hasn't achieved as much as you is a slacker?

Newsflash: People like me who pay a lot in taxes and who don't demand much in the way of services are the ones who maintain a strong economy. A strong economy isn't provided by the Government; it's provided by the private sector. Perhaps those on the Left will figure that out one day.

Well, as one on the Left who pays a lot in taxes and doesn't demand much in the way of services personally, I still value the services that government provides to others, education in particular. Hippie's point is a good one - the private sector needs an educated workforce, and it relies on the gummint to provide it. Not to mention a stable society, provided by aid to the poor, emergency services, etc etc.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Another way to get close to the WSJ number (although I'd be shocked if this is how they derive it) is this:

1. Take the 2009 State and Local Total Compensation hourly rate from the chart in your source.
2. Multiply by 40 (work week)
3. Multiply by 52 (number of weeks)

1. $39.90
2. $1596
3. $82,992

Compare that to the statement you call off by a factor of two:

"What was really protected was the $83,402 a year average in pay and benefits to Oregon state workers"

It looks like it's off by about $500 to me, and that includes local workers.

Ed O.

Good point. I actually didn't notice they said pay and benefits, so I was comparing apples and pumpkins. 40 reading comprehension lashes for me.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Your incentive is the same as it is now, minus a few dollars in taxes. Are you really going to stop working if your tax bill increases? I'm not.

Ah, so naive. Go live in Europe and you'll see the impact of taxes on the work ethic. Just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more...pretty soon the well is dry.

Do you really think everyone who hasn't achieved as much as you is a slacker?

If they're asking me to pay for them, they are.

Well, as one on the Left who pays a lot in taxes and doesn't demand much in the way of services personally, I still value the services that government provides to others, education in particular. Hippie's point is a good one - the private sector needs an educated workforce, and it relies on the gummint to provide it. Not to mention a stable society, provided by aid to the poor, emergency services, etc etc.

barfo

Good news! The State of Oregon Department of Revenue accepts VISA, MasterCard, American Express, money orders, cashiers checks and personal checks.

You're buying into the argument that the State of Oregon is operating at a bare minimum. On that issue we disagree. If those measures passed, they would have found a way to educate kids and keep convicts in prison.

 

[Blazer_Hippie]

So, the fact that I've worked harder or made more sacrifices should be shared with those who have chosen to slack? What's my incentive to continue to produce? Stop freeriding. If you want something, get it for yourself.



Newsflash: People like me who pay a lot in taxes and who don't demand much in the way of services are the ones who maintain a strong economy. A strong economy isn't provided by the Government; it's provided by the private sector. Perhaps those on the Left will figure that out one day.

And the comments about the "left" needing to "figure stuff out" ...implying I don't know anything and saying "chosen to slack begin...looks like the cordial discussion is over so I'm done. That's why I usually avoid these discussions.

Peace.

 

[maxiep]

And the comments about the "left" needing to "figure stuff out" ...implying I don't know anything and saying "chosen to slack begin...looks like the cordial discussion is over so I'm done. That's why I usually avoid these discussions.

Peace.

Um, I was talking about politicians, so lighten up. But you run along. Hopefully you learned something. When you vote for a tax increase in which you don't participate, you're asking for others to pay for you. That's simply wrongheaded. Be responsible for yourself.

 

[barfo]

Ah, so naive. Go live in Europe and you'll see the impact of taxes on the work ethic. Just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more...pretty soon the well is dry.

Uh, sure. It's all about taxes. Every difference between here and Europe can be attributed to taxes. Because, after all, taxes are the single most important thing in life.

You're buying into the argument that the State of Oregon is operating at a bare minimum.

I am? I don't think I am. I'm saying the current level isn't sufficient. Of course we could cut it more. We could cut it to zero. It's not zero yet.

On that issue we disagree. If those measures passed, they would have found a way to educate kids and keep convicts in prison.

Cut just a little bit more... cut a little bit more... cut just a little bit more... cut just a bit more...pretty soon little Johnny is too ignorant to do anything but steal the shit you worked so hard to accumulate.

barfo

 

[oldguy]

Ah, so naive. Go live in Europe and you'll see the impact of taxes on the work ethic. Just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more...pretty soon the well is dry.

If they're asking me to pay for them, they are.

Good news! The State of Oregon Department of Revenue accepts VISA, MasterCard, American Express, money orders, cashiers checks and personal checks.

You're buying into the argument that the State of Oregon is operating at a bare minimum. On that issue we disagree. If those measures passed, they would have found a way to educate kids and keep convicts in prison.

The measures passed, but I think they will still pass the bill to give inmates more early release time, if they haven't already done so.

I also think the way they will find to educate kids is to cut educational days in the majority of school districts. In Eugene the school district had to to cut about $20M last year. There was stimulus money (about $8M, I think) to save a lot of teachers jobs. That meant they 'only' had to cut $12M. The district released most of their reserves, about $4M, so they only had to cut $8M. Those cuts came from retirements, layoffs, furlough days (I think 3, of which one was a day when kids were supposed to attend) and pay freezes for administrators.

It's looking like the district will have to cut somewhere around the same amount this year. So far as I know, there is still next to nothing in the reserves, and (so far) no stimulus money offered for saving teacher jobs. It really doesn't look good.

Go Blazers

 

[barfo]

Good news! The State of Oregon Department of Revenue accepts VISA, MasterCard, American Express, money orders, cashiers checks and personal checks.

They don't accept American Express.

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Uh, sure. It's all about taxes. Every difference between here and Europe can be attributed to taxes. Because, after all, taxes are the single most important thing in life.



I am? I don't think I am. I'm saying the current level isn't sufficient. Of course we could cut it more. We could cut it to zero. It's not zero yet.



Cut just a little bit more... cut a little bit more... cut just a little bit more... cut just a bit more...pretty soon little Johnny is too ignorant to do anything but steal the shit you worked so hard to accumulate.

barfo

Everyone in Oregon is cutting...except for the Government. As for spending and test results, they don't track very well. DC spends as much per student as it costs to attend Deerfield and they're not turning out a great product. Sometimes, the answer isn't to spend more, but to use that money more wisely.

 

[barfo]

Everyone in Oregon is cutting...except for the Government. As for spending and test results, they don't track very well. DC spends as much per student as it costs to attend Deerfield and they're not turning out a great product. Sometimes, the answer isn't to spend more, but to use that money more wisely.

Sometimes, yes. But not all the time. Do you have any evidence at all that that's the answer here in Oregon?

barfo

 

[maxiep]

Sometimes, yes. But not all the time. Do you have any evidence at all that that's the answer here in Oregon?

barfo

We've continued to raise taxes to pay higher and higher amounts to "educate" our students and we haven't seen significant if any improvement. Perhaps throwing money at the problem isn't the solution. Perhaps we should try something different.

 

[barfo]

We've continued to raise taxes to pay higher and higher amounts to "educate" our students and we haven't seen significant if any improvement. Perhaps throwing money at the problem isn't the solution. Perhaps we should try something different.

Like what?

And have we really "continued to raise taxes"? The property tax has risen, 3% per year max. The income tax has just been raised (on a few of us) for the first time since I don't know when. The business tax was just raised for the first time since the 30s. The sales tax is still 0%. Multnomah county did have a temporary income tax for 3 years.

That to me doesn't seem like a long record of raising taxes. If anything it seems like the opposite.

barfo

 

[jlprk]

The teachers unions exulted yesterday that Oregonians voted to "protect our schools and vital public services." What was really protected was the $83,402 a year average in PAY AND BENEFITS to Oregon state workers, 30% higher than what private workers receive. This is bankrupting states like Oregon, California, New York and New Jersey. On the other hand, Oregon's folly will be some other state's gain.

"Pay and benefits" may be the cost of each employee to the employer, in this case the government. I used to include them in the expense account called Payroll Expense. These can include almost anything. Company liability insurance. Industrial insurance paid to the state. Unemployment insurance paid to the state. FICA, Social Security, Medicare, FUTA paid to the Federal Government. City and State income tax, employer's portion.

I didn't include the following employee costs. Utilities. Rent. Mortgage on the work building. Lunch facilities. Rest rooms. Janitorial salary to clean the workplace. Repaving their parking lot.

Now my imagination is getting into this, just like the Wall Street Journal liars. The boss. That's right, his salary is an employee expense, since he wouldn't be necessary without anyone to supervise. His boss. That's right, oh I don't want to type it again. How about the limo for the company president. That wouldn't be necessary if not for, uh, I'm really stretching this, but the employees.

The point is that except for direct manufacturing costs (procuring the metal to make widgets), all expenses can be viewed as ultimately employee costs. The government doesn't manufacture anyway, so 100% can be categorized by the lying Wall Street analyst into the $83,000.

 

[jlprk]

Ah, so naive. Go live in Europe and you'll see the impact of taxes on the work ethic. Just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more, just a little bit more...pretty soon the well is dry.

Are you saying the standard of living in France, Germany, and Britain is lower than here? Yes, they work less, but they have all the things we have, because their system is efficient. The US is dropping from #1 to #3, after Europe and China. The Euro continues to move farther and farther ahead of the dollar.

We would be as advanced as Europe if not for the political influence of the American South.

 

[oldguy]

Everyone in Oregon is cutting...except for the Government. As for spending and test results, they don't track very well. DC spends as much per student as it costs to attend Deerfield and they're not turning out a great product. Sometimes, the answer isn't to spend more, but to use that money more wisely.

I know that is what Lars says. Either you skipped my post about the Eugene SD cutting last year, and again this year, or you don't believe it. They will have big cuts to make next year, too. If the Eugene SD is cutting, I'd bet that virtually every SD in the state is cutting.

School spending is 40 some percent of the budget I think. How is that government not cutting?



Go Blazers

 

[maxiep]

Like what?

And have we really "continued to raise taxes"? The property tax has risen, 3% per year max. The income tax has just been raised (on a few of us) for the first time since I don't know when. The business tax was just raised for the first time since the 30s. The sales tax is still 0%. Multnomah county did have a temporary income tax for 3 years.

That to me doesn't seem like a long record of raising taxes. If anything it seems like the opposite.

barfo

My taxes to the City of LO, Clackamas County and the State have continued to increase every year, beyond the rate of inflation. There's a reason the only sector of the Oregon economy that's growing is the public sector. They have to find a way to pay for all those jobs, benefits and future pensions.

California is a beacon for us telling us to head down a different path, yet we follow along like a lemming. It's time to shrink the size and scope of services the State offers. If you force people to fend for themselves, they generally find a way.