OT: Building the Jazz

[KingSpeed]

I am just amazed at the roster on the Jazz and the success they've had with it. 4 second round picks, 2 of whom (Boozer, Millsap) are their best big men. Two undrafed players, one of whom (Wesley Matthews) STARTS in his rookie year! And only ONE lottery pick (Deron Williams). It's really incredible. We're loaded with lottery picks and, partly due to injuries, we haven't been able to get out of the first round. #1- Greg Oden, #2- Camby & Aldridge, #6- Webster, #7- Roy, #8- Andre Miller, #9- Joel Przybilla. Am I missing anyone? Do we have the most lottery picks in the league? How does Utah do it?

 

[andalusian]

My sources tell me that they do it by forcing a game 7 on the Lakers.

 

[Luther]

You are polluting this board KS....please stop it's really annoying and nothing you are posting has any real meaning.

 

[BrianFromWA]

How about looking at it this way? They got a high lotto pick and got their all-world player at a position that's relatively rare (PG). We got ours, but he's been injured a lot--though he's played at a pretty high caliber when he's on the floor. They got a top-flight free agent in Boozer, which we haven't yet (unless you're counting Andre?). They have a couple of non-lotto picks that worked out for them and are getting some good PT in Kirilenko, Millsap and Mathews. We have a couple of non-lotto picks ourselves in Batum and Rudy that get some solid rotation minutes with us.

They turned DeShawn Stevenson and two future draft picks into Kyle Korver (by way of Gordan Giricek). We turned Blake and Outlaw into Camby.

I'd say that having a "system" like Sloan does allows for not only players to know what they're getting into when they arrive (it's coach's way or the highway) but that you can plug non-lotto picks in as ancillary pieces and make it work somewhat, b/c they have two Olympians on their team. We not only have none, but we don't have a system where Rudy or Webster or Miller knows a role, Batum's and Oden's are underutilized, and LMA's isn't very efficient.

 

[Wheels]

How about looking at it this way? They got a high lotto pick and got their all-world player at a position that's relatively rare (PG). We got ours, but he's been injured a lot--though he's played at a pretty high caliber when he's on the floor. They got a top-flight free agent in Boozer, which we haven't yet (unless you're counting Andre?). They have a couple of non-lotto picks that worked out for them and are getting some good PT in Kirilenko, Millsap and Mathews. We have a couple of non-lotto picks ourselves in Batum and Rudy that get some solid rotation minutes with us.

They turned DeShawn Stevenson and two future draft picks into Kyle Korver (by way of Gordan Giricek). We turned Blake and Outlaw into Camby.

I'd say that having a "system" like Sloan does allows for not only players to know what they're getting into when they arrive (it's coach's way or the highway) but that you can plug non-lotto picks in as ancillary pieces and make it work somewhat, b/c they have two Olympians on their team. We not only have none, but we don't have a system where Rudy or Webster or Miller knows a role, Batum's and Oden's are underutilized, and LMA's isn't very efficient.

wow that was hit outta here faster than a Byung Hyung Kim fastball (from his Diamondback days)

 

[KingSpeed]

You are polluting this board KS....please stop it's really annoying and nothing you are posting has any real meaning.

How does my post have no meaning? I'm talking basketball. Are you not amazed that the Jazz get to the second round with only 1 lottery pick? And is there any team in the league that has more lottery picks than us? It's an honest question. I guess you're interested in talking basketball. Perhaps you're the one polluting the board with negative nothing?

 

[KingSpeed]

How about looking at it this way? They got a high lotto pick and got their all-world player at a position that's relatively rare (PG). We got ours, but he's been injured a lot--though he's played at a pretty high caliber when he's on the floor. They got a top-flight free agent in Boozer, which we haven't yet (unless you're counting Andre?). They have a couple of non-lotto picks that worked out for them and are getting some good PT in Kirilenko, Millsap and Mathews. We have a couple of non-lotto picks ourselves in Batum and Rudy that get some solid rotation minutes with us.

They turned DeShawn Stevenson and two future draft picks into Kyle Korver (by way of Gordan Giricek). We turned Blake and Outlaw into Camby.

I'd say that having a "system" like Sloan does allows for not only players to know what they're getting into when they arrive (it's coach's way or the highway) but that you can plug non-lotto picks in as ancillary pieces and make it work somewhat, b/c they have two Olympians on their team. We not only have none, but we don't have a system where Rudy or Webster or Miller knows a role, Batum's and Oden's are underutilized, and LMA's isn't very efficient.

Take note, Luther. That was a well thought out basketball related post.

 

[TripTango]

Reasonable question, reasonable answer. This thread is WIN!

 

[KingSpeed]

I still would like to know if there is any other team in the NBA with more lottery picks than the Blazers. Can anyone think of one offhand?

 

[DaRizzle]

You are polluting this board KS....please stop it's really annoying and nothing you are posting has any real meaning.

+1.

 

[KingSpeed]

+1.

I have a pair of courtside seats being held for me behind the basket on the same side as the visitors bench for Game 1 vs the Suns provided it happens. Do you want to go with me?

 

[Pinwheel1]

I am just amazed at the roster on the Jazz and the success they've had with it. 4 second round picks, 2 of whom (Boozer, Millsap) are their best big men. Two undrafed players, one of whom (Wesley Matthews) STARTS in his rookie year! And only ONE lottery pick (Deron Williams). It's really incredible. We're loaded with lottery picks and, partly due to injuries, we haven't been able to get out of the first round. #1- Greg Oden, #2- Camby & Aldridge, #6- Webster, #7- Roy, #8- Andre Miller, #9- Joel Przybilla. Am I missing anyone? Do we have the most lottery picks in the league? How does Utah do it?

Interesting that they have a lot of undrafted and second round picks. Do you ever wonder why they have so many roster spots for those guys? Because for every 2nd round pick that makes it, they had a 1st round pick that did not. With 15 spots it all evens out. Deron is a stud......They bought Boozer and Okur and over paid Kirilenko. They flat out got lucky with Mathews, or they would have drafted him. They make good and bad choices like everyone else.

 

[BGrantFan]

Interesting that they have a lot of undrafted and second round picks. Do you ever wonder why they have so many roster spots for those guys? Because for every 2nd round pick that makes it, they had a 1st round pick that did not. With 15 spots it all evens out. Deron is a stud......They bought Boozer and Okur and over paid Kirilenko. They flat out got lucky with Mathews, or they would have drafted him. They make good and bad choices like everyone else.

They drafted Kirk Snyder, but were able to make up for that mistake. Their first round picks the past 10 years have been laughable. As already pointed out, they were able to get proven productive NBA players like Boozer and Okur to make up for their horrific drafts. It doesn't matter where those two were drafted, because they proved themselves to be very good NBA players before ever playing for the Jazz.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=UTA&lg=N

Millsap was the 3rd player they drafted in 2006, so it's not like they were eager to snap him up, either.

 

[DaRizzle]

I have a pair of courtside seats being held for me behind the basket on the same side as the visitors bench for Game 1 vs the Suns provided it happens. Do you want to go with me?

you are just fucking with me.... but because I love the Lakers so much and those tickets would make me be able to check off a biggie on my "bucket list" I will bite....

Yes I want to go to the game with you, drinks on me

 

[DaRizzle]

...evil evil trick on me btw

 

[LameR]

Take note, Luther. That was a well thought out basketball related post.

As was that. Wait, no...

On topic (which is actually off topicish), I don't really want to build something to get swept by the Lakers despite what your sources may say.

 

[Tince]

They probably have the best coach in the league, that helps a ton.

 

[huevonkiller]

Lmfao at Thrilla's deleted post.

 

[J_Ray]

They drafted Kirk Snyder, but were able to make up for that mistake. Their first round picks the past 10 years have been laughable. As already pointed out, they were able to get proven productive NBA players like Boozer and Okur to make up for their horrific drafts. It doesn't matter where those two were drafted, because they proved themselves to be very good NBA players before ever playing for the Jazz.

http://www.databasebasketball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=UTA&lg=N

Millsap was the 3rd player they drafted in 2006, so it's not like they were eager to snap him up, either.

Utah's recent drafts haven't been all that awful as the early 2000's but big part of that is because they started taking value in guys that fell (Brewer, Millsap, Koufos, etc). Most of the busts that they have had really had some injury issues like Bochardt and Raul Lopez, who were both reasonably decent in their roles.

But if you go back to look through their picks, Utah just find guys that understand their roles, and that's why Sloan is able to put them together much better than the Blazers, who really just draft the best talent available rather than the best talent for their system.

 

[Wheels]

Utah's recent drafts haven't been all that awful as the early 2000's but big part of that is because they started taking value in guys that fell (Brewer, Millsap, Koufos, etc). Most of the busts that they have had really had some injury issues like Bochardt and Raul Lopez, who were both reasonably decent in their roles.

But if you go back to look through their picks, Utah just find guys that understand their roles, and that's why Sloan is able to put them together much better than the Blazers, who really just draft the best talent available rather than the best talent for their system.

Thats why you guys have Deron and we have Martell dammit. We tried talent for our system as opposed to Best player (Paul and Williams) That bit us in the ass me thinks.

 

[DaRizzle]

you are just fucking with me.... but because I love the Lakers so much and those tickets would make me be able to check off a biggie on my "bucket list" I will bite....

Yes I want to go to the game with you, drinks on me

bump...dont be a tease! Say ok or shoot me down already!

 

[Pinwheel1]

Utah's recent drafts haven't been all that awful as the early 2000's but big part of that is because they started taking value in guys that fell (Brewer, Millsap, Koufos, etc). Most of the busts that they have had really had some injury issues like Bochardt and Raul Lopez, who were both reasonably decent in their roles.

But if you go back to look through their picks, Utah just find guys that understand their roles, and that's why Sloan is able to put them together much better than the Blazers, who really just draft the best talent available rather than the best talent for their system.

You mean like Morris Almond? How did he fit with Sloan' style of ball. Look I am not criticizing O'Connor, because the draft is a crap shoot when you get past the first few picks.

But I used to listen to the arrogance of the Jazz management team on the radio following the draft, and how they draft "differently" from teams like the Blazer (yes they would use the blazers as an example) and I would be flabbergasted because when I looked at their roster, I never saw many drafted players listed after a couple of years. Which is normal, but really how much better could they have been at evaluating talent? They routinely missed out on their first round picks, but did well with second or third picks. But why didn't they apply the same philosophy in the first round?


I agree that Sloan's type of guy is the hard working hungry player. Those type of players are usually found in the 2nd round or go undrafted.


As for Lopez and his injuries.....they still took him over Parker even though they brought Tony in for 2 work outs. Now it turned out well because they ended up with Williams 4 years later, but wouldn't he have been a good fit? You win some and you lose some. But the Jazz do nothing better than anyone else on draft day.

 

[BrianFromWA]

I'm trying to remember where I saw it...I can't claim to have made it up...

Someone was talking about post-lottery drafting and saying that red-flagged, really talented players are the ones that teams in our position should take. We're pretty set, and getting someone talented who falls for whatever reason (like Blair and his knees last year, or Batum and his "heart issues", or Monroe and his motor this year) has the potential to be a really high-reward, over-the-top player. There's also the potential to go Oliver Miller/Jerome James and laze your way out of the league or blow something Shaun Livingston-style, so the floor is REALLY low. (To be fair, KP could very well be lumping "talented, but with big Euro buyout and/or contract issues" into this category)
Teams that need lots of help might be better to go for the "solid" pick, a guy with lesser talent but higher motor, b/c they'll have something they can count on to contribute immediately. Think Tyler Hansbrough, maybe. Before he got injured, he was a solid contributor with a high motor that you could count on to "scrap". You might not have been sure that Blair would stay on the court, or Ty Lawson would stay out of trouble, or Brandon Jennings would know his anus from his elbow. And that risk is too much for bad teams that need some solid contributors to build around. For us, missing on Claver wouldn't necessarily cripple the franchise. Ask NYK how much they'd prefer Blair or Jennings or Lawson to Jordan Hill right now.

 

[KingSpeed]

bump...dont be a tease! Say ok or shoot me down already!

Dude. Fuck. I asked you Monday night while you were posting in this thread. I checked again yesterday during the day and you still hadn't said anything. I figured you were either ignoring me or didn't believe me so I asked someone else. I wish you had responded earlier. Would've been fun to finally meet The DaRizzle. Well, no worries. I'll get tix like this again sometime and will ask you then.

 

[DaRizzle]

I was gonna miss a final and fail a class for that ticket

 

[KingSpeed]

I was gonna miss a final and fail a class for that ticket

It's all for the best then. What class?

 

[J_Ray]

You mean like Morris Almond? How did he fit with Sloan' style of ball. Look I am not criticizing O'Connor, because the draft is a crap shoot when you get past the first few picks.

As for Lopez and his injuries.....they still took him over Parker even though they brought Tony in for 2 work outs. Now it turned out well because they ended up with Williams 4 years later, but wouldn't he have been a good fit? You win some and you lose some. But the Jazz do nothing better than anyone else on draft day.

Morris Almond is pretty talented, just the guy can't play a lick of defense due to his lack of athleticism. If you watch Utah, a lot of Utah's offense gets wide open curls from 15-18ft away, so Morris Almond was a good fit if he could of been an NBA level athlete. The guy was also picked @ the end of the 1st round, you don't exactly have a pool full of talent left that late.

Raul Lopez was a nice little player, but you can't deny him tearing up his knees after Utah drafted him didn't effect the outlook of the pick. At the time, Lopez was a much different player w/ the physical tools but ended up tearing an ACL before his rookie campaign. I'm sure if Tony Parker tore his ACL his rookie year trying to adapt to not only a new team but a new culture, he wouldn't be the same superstar. I'm not saying Lopez would of became better than Tony Parker, but you can't say Utah made a mistake for not taking Parker when the fact that he was picked #27, Utah wasn't the only team that missed on him. Lately Utah has had some pretty decent picks compared to past years.

 

[DaRizzle]

It's all for the best then. What class?

A very easy computer class I have an A in.....I would have figured something out to have my cake and eat it too