OT - Clippers Owner Donald Sterling to GF -- Don't Bring Black People to My Games

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Will Sterling be owner of the Clips on Nov. 1?

  • yes, he'll still be owner (Sterlng Wins, at least temporarily)

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • no, he'll be ousted (Sterling Loses)

    Votes: 8 25.0%
  • no, but he'll make an exorbitant amount of dough in the sale (Sterling basically wins)

    Votes: 18 56.3%

  • Total voters
    32
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

I think you are right. The commissioner must be bound by some sort of rules or he could willy nilly force any owner to sell for any reason he chose.

The 3/4 rule looks like ambiguous language at best. It is intended to allow the league to take over a team that can't live up to its fiscal obligations.

I want the guy gone, but I think the owners are going to consider the likelihood of a multibillion dollar lawsuit. That's where I think Cuban's mindset is at, and he's not going to be alone.

There will be owners that vote against ousting him I am sure. But I am also sure that they will get enough votes to have him gone. So it won't be unanimous but it will happen.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Sterling gave consent to the NBA to use it? He can't be that stupid is he?

Got a link of that?

He doesn't have to give the NBA consent to use it. If it was obtained legally (multiple sources say it was) anyone can use it in court. It's already in the hands of the authorities, but if it wasn't the NBA could subpoena the girlfriend and force her to turn it over to the authorities.

BNM
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

I think you are right. The commissioner must be bound by some sort of rules or he could willy nilly force any owner to sell for any reason he chose.

The 3/4 rule looks like ambiguous language at best. It is intended to allow the league to take over a team that can't live up to its fiscal obligations.

I want the guy gone, but I think the owners are going to consider the likelihood of a multibillion dollar lawsuit. That's where I think Cuban's mindset is at, and he's not going to be alone.

Yep I think people aren't seeing the forest through the trees here.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

He doesn't have to give the NBA consent to use it. If it was obtained legally (multiple sources say it was) anyone can use it in court. It's already in the hands of the authorities, but if it wasn't the NBA could subpoena the girlfriend and force her to turn it over to the authorities.

BNM

Until the court says it was legally obtained is when I will believe it. You are more than welcome to think otherwise.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Nope it's breaking the law. Different sentences, but it's back by "was the law broken?" And if evidence used to kick someone out unlawfully obtain, that's breaking the law.

What proof do you have that the evidence was illegally obtained?????

BNM
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

We will soon find out. We are dealing with a billionaire slim ball here. Someone that isn't concerned with money and has billions to waste in court.

You guys can argue all you want, but in the end, anyone can sue anyone. And the greatest attorneys in the world and get a man caught red handed with the murder weapon, keep him out of jail.

I'm not saying Sterling won't sue. He may (I don't think anyone knows what Sterling will do since he is so far out there). I'm just disagreeing with you that the NBA can't use the tape. They will be able to use the tape. But like you said, we will eventually find out if Sterling will sue and if he does if the tape will be used against him.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

What proof do you have that the evidence was illegally obtained?????

BNM

I don't... But if you are using tape recordings, knowing that I tried doing this in California and being thrown out, I have my doubts.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

I'm not saying Sterling won't sue. He may (I don't think anyone knows what Sterling will do since he is so far out there). I'm just disagreeing with you that the NBA can't use the tape. They will be able to use the tape. But like you said, we will eventually find out if Sterling will sue and if he does if the tape will be used against him.

Personally I hope it was legally obtained. I fucking hate sterling. I want him gone as much as any guy here. I'm just playing devils advocate here. I've been on the receiving and giving end of tossing evidence out with something very similar.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Not sure why the majority position seems to be that if a private citizen makes a tape illegally, it can't be used by anyone else. It happens all the time in family law. The spouse may have committed a crime taping the conversation but 9 out 10 judges in Oregon will listen to the tape and consider it when deciding a family law matter.

It is state conduct that can often lead to suppression of evidence. Private citizen conduct, even if illegal, is not a strong ground to keep out evidence.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Not sure why the majority position seems to be that if a private citizen makes a tape illegally, it can't be used by anyone else. It happens all the time in family law. The spouse may have committed a crime taping the conversation but 9 out 10 judges in Oregon will listen to the tape and consider it when deciding a family law matter.

Actually no it can't... At least not in California. I wasn't able to use my recordings. And one of my ex wives tried on me and I was able to throw it out.
 
Re: What I'd like to hear Silver say

Interesting that you had a conversation with sterling so you can explain what he truly expresses. Or are u generating this from the transcripts we all read?

If it's the later, you don't have enough evidence to think what you just wrote.
There's copious evidence to make that conclusion:
-The Department of Justice has sued Sterling for racial discrimination.
-Elgin Baylor has sued Sterling for racial discrimination.
-A number of other people have accused Sterling of racial slurs and even making comments such as "look at my black bodies."

When considering the above accusations, even things which appear minor on their face - like celebrating Black History Month in the wrong month - at best point to Sterling's cavalier disregard for Black people. Sterling's history of racism shed even more light on his comments. Therefore, it would be very reasonable to conclude that about Sterling's comments.
 
Re: What I'd like to hear Silver say

There's copious evidence to make that conclusion:
-The Department of Justice has sued Sterling for racial discrimination.
-Elgin Baylor has sued Sterling for racial discrimination.
-A number of other people have accused Sterling of racial slurs and even making comments such as "look at my black bodies."

When considering the above accusations, even things which appear minor on their face - like celebrating Black History Month in the wrong month - at best point to Sterling's cavalier disregard for Black people. Sterling's history of racism shed even more light on his comments. Therefore, it would be very reasonable to conclude that about Sterling's comments.

Got a link? I was unaware of any of this stuff. I would love to read the court transcripts. If any of them stuck, then great. It would really suck if all were thrown out. Only makes sterling's case more iron clad.
 
Re: What I'd like to hear Silver say

A conversation between a man and his girlfriend in an isolated location isn't a private matter? I bet most of you can recall conversations or jokes you told that you are glad didn't get recorded and put out for all to see.

I think most of you get my point. The saying goes "bad facts make bad law." Sterling's comments were very bad facts and he deserves what he gets. Only time will tell regarding the rest.

And Eastoff, I do have the right to voice my opinion on this topic as it does relate to the content of the thread. I'm sorry if you don't like what I said, but fortunately you don't get to decide who must go to the OT forum.

The true irony here is that Sterling will make the most money out of this if he just shuts up, lets the league sell the team at their peak price and takes the money and runs. In a way, Silver is giving him a way to max out his investment--an unfortunate consequence.

Read my whole post, not just the first sentence.
 
Re: Mark Cuban's Comments on Sterling

From the reddit thread on the same topic:

Sterling has issued a statement, "I understand you had to issue the ban and the fine and I'm perfectly fine with it.. but did you have to make it public and plaster it all over Twitter where these blacks can see it?"'

Too soon?

Edit: Aaaand somehow I posted in the wrong thread. Time for my nap.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Actually no it can't... At least not in California. I wasn't able to use my recordings. And one of my ex wives tried on me and I was able to throw it out.

Weren't able to use or was advised by your lawyer not to use? are you allowed to tape phone calls?

Here is the law in Oregon:


"Under ORS 165.540(1)(a), interception or recording of either a telecommunication or radio communication requires the consent of only one of the parties to the communication. [304 Or. 466] Under ORS 165.540(1)(c), however, before a face-to-face conversation can be intercepted or recorded all participants must be 'specifically informed that their conversation is being obtained.' This latter prohibition on recording of face-to-face conversations means that a person who tape records a public meeting, public speech or classroom lecture without 'specifically informing' all participants that the discussion is being taped is guilty of a Class C felony." .


You can tape phone call but you can't tape in person conversations (as always in the law with some exceptions)
 
Re: What I'd like to hear Silver say

Got a link? I was unaware of any of this stuff. I would love to read the court transcripts. If any of them stuck, then great. It would really suck if all were thrown out. Only makes sterling's case more iron clad.

In 2009, Sterling agreed to a $2.765-million settlement in a case that alleged discrimination against African Americans, Latinos and others at apartment buildings he owned in Los Angeles County

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sport...oversy-20140426,0,1205990.story#ixzz30JhgokR4
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Weren't able to use or was advised by your lawyer not to use? are you allowed to tape phone calls?

Here is the law in Oregon:


"Under ORS 165.540(1)(a), interception or recording of either a telecommunication or radio communication requires the consent of only one of the parties to the communication. [304 Or. 466] Under ORS 165.540(1)(c), however, before a face-to-face conversation can be intercepted or recorded all participants must be 'specifically informed that their conversation is being obtained.' This latter prohibition on recording of face-to-face conversations means that a person who tape records a public meeting, public speech or classroom lecture without 'specifically informing' all participants that the discussion is being taped is guilty of a Class C felony." Interim Committee Report, pp 32-33 (emphasis added).

You can tape phone call but you can't tape in person conversations (as always in the law with some exceptions)

Nope the judge threw the evidence out. Remember this is California not Oregon.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Nope the judge threw the evidence out. Remember this is California not Oregon.

True . . . California and that 9th circuit can be kind of wacky. I still say the tape is allowed, but I don't think we will ever find out the answer to that question.
 
Re: What I'd like to hear Silver say

In 2009, Sterling agreed to a $2.765-million settlement in a case that alleged discrimination against African Americans, Latinos and others at apartment buildings he owned in Los Angeles County

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sport...oversy-20140426,0,1205990.story#ixzz30JhgokR4

Here is what really stood out

Sterling denied the charges by the Justice Department and in two separate lawsuits by former tenants. All three cases were covered by the settlement. The former tenants alleged property managers used racial slurs against them and didn’t follow through on the terms of their lease agreements. Sterling, though, didn’t admit any liability in the settlement.

Remember that the court system is not iron clad. Bad guys get away with shit all the time.
 
I'm not racist, I'm threadist, all these Sterling threads look alike.
 
Ken Berger ‏@KBergCBS

Interesting subplot: Under NBA constitution, Sterling has 30 days to pay fine. If not, that in itself is grounds for his removal by board.






Mo Williams ‏@mowilliams

One more thing to the sterling case: (he can no longer subscribe to nba league pass or download the nba game time app)
 
Sterling, NBA set for epic legal fight over Clippers

In a historic announcement, NBA commissioner Adam Silver has handed Los Angeles Clippers owner Donald Sterling a lifetime ban from the NBA, along with issuing the maximum allowable fine of $2.5 million. Of greater significance, Silver has also instructed NBA owners to oust Sterling as owner of the team. The announcement sets the table for an epic legal fight over ownership of the Clippers and the powers of the commissioner.
Legality of Sterling's suspension and fine

Silver has broad authority under the NBA's constitution and bylaws to suspend and fine an owner for conduct detrimental to the NBA. According to Sliver, Sterling admitted it was his voice on the recording in which he made racist remarks. Even if the recording was unlawfully created under California law -- the recording would likely be unlawful if the conversation was confidential and Sterling didn't give consent -- Silver is authorized to punish Sterling based on the recording's impact on the league. It is safe to say that Sterling's comments, which elicited the rebuke of President Barack Obama, have deeply harmed the NBA and its relationship with players, sponsors and fans. Sterling seems to lack a viable argument that his conduct was not seriously detrimental to the NBA.
Sterling is also disadvantaged in challenging the suspension and fine because of how a court would treat such a challenge. A court would review Silver's decision under the deferential "arbitrary and capricious" standard of review. This standard would essentially require Sterling prove that the NBA -- and specifically Silver, acting as the NBA's ultimate arbiter -- failed to follow its own rules in how it investigated Sterling and punished him. For instance, if the NBA failed to authenticate the recording, concealed evidence or not requested a meeting with Sterling, Sterling might have sufficient grounds. Silver's remarks during the press conference, however, suggest all relevant rules and policies were followed. Absent Sterling proving there was a procedural defect of serious importance, Sterling likely has no viable appeal to either the fine or suspension.
ROSENERG: Lifetime ban fitting punishment for Sterling
As a practical effect, the suspension all but excommunicates Sterling from both his team and the NBA. He is forbidden from any contact with players, coaches and staff, and he is barred from attending games or practices. Sterling is also prohibited from participating in league activities. He is now, essentially, in NBA exile.
The fine of $2.5 million may seem inconsequential given that Sterling is worth reportedly $1.9 billion, but it was the highest amount of money permitted by the league's constitution and bylaws. Had Silver issued a higher fine, and justified it on policy or moral grounds, he would have provided Sterling with an opportunity to raise a legal point. Specifically, Sterling might have argued such a penalty is "arbitrary and capricious" because it would not have followed NBA rules. Silver, an attorney, wisely adhered to the rules instead.



Legality of NBA forcing Sterling to sell the Clippers

Silver has also recommended that NBA owners effectively force Sterling to sell the Clippers. The NBA has a procedure in place for this extraordinary action, but the procedure contains enough ambiguity that debate among owners is likely. Under article 13 of the league's constitution, three fourths of the teams' ownership groups can vote to terminate a franchise under certain conditions. The conditions are focused on financial matters, such as an owner unable to meet payroll or an owner implicated in financial impropriety. None of the listed conditions, SI.com is told, apply directly to the type of conduct committed by Sterling. That said, article 13 also contains a more general requirement of ethical conduct in business dealings and contracts. Sterling's comments could be deemed unethical. They have also clearly damaged labor relations between the league and players, as players have gone so far as to consider boycotting NBA games. Also, sponsors have dropped deals with the Clippers. Should the NBA's owners vote to expel Sterling, the general requirement language would likely be cited as supplying the main legal justification.
RELATED: Sterling says Clippers 'not for sale'
While Silver said he had not polled the owners, he expressed confidence there will be sufficient support to oust Sterlin. Silver's bold prediction suggests he has the necessary votes. That said, expect there to be some debate among owners. No owner will defend Sterling's racism, but some might question whether article 13 and potentially other authorizing language was intended for this type of transgression. Expect some owners to raise the following four concerns:
1. Neither the Clippers nor Sterling is in financial trouble. article 13 was designed as an extraordinary remedy for such a problem -- not other problems. While sponsors have dropped their deals with the Clippers and players have contemplated boycotts, the team appears to be in strong financial shape with a deep-pocketed, if reviled, owner. There is no reason to believe that Sterling has committed financial fraud, and while he has been sued over allegations of race, those cases were either settled or unsuccessful.
2.The Clippers are not run in a racist way. Sterling may be extremely bigoted and hold reprehensible views, but there is no reason to suspect that the team itself operates in a racist way. The current Clippers workplace appears to be a productive setting, devoid of allegations by players or other employees that they have experienced racism. Similarly, there are no reports that the Clippers have directed ticket sales and marketing efforts away from minority fans. As a franchise, the Clippers appear to be well-run, which would make it an unusual candidate for termination.
3. Lack of 'morals clause'. Article 13 lists a series of enumerated wrongs, some of which are specific but none of which seem directly relevant to an owner whose racism expressed in a private conversation sparks national outrage. Some owners might argue that if the NBA wanted ouster as a remedy for a situation like this one, the constitution and bylaws' drafters would have included it. Along those lines, there is no "morals clause" in these documents that empowers the ousting an NBA owner. The absence of a morals clause, in contrast to the inclusion of other provisions, could suggest that such a clause was intentionally omitted.
4. Precedent. While Sterling's actions seem unlikely to be replicated by another owner, some owners could worry that if they agree to oust Sterling, different situations might give rise to the same consequence for other owners. Once one owner is ousted, there is precedent to do it again. Mark Cuban recently voiced those exact concerns, calling the situation "a slippery slope."
Sterling suing the NBA and owners

In addition to concern about proper interpretation of the relevant language, some owners may worry about the prospect that Sterling will sue. Sterling, an attorney, is regarded as one of the most litigious owners in professional sports. If there is one owner who would sue over expulsion, it's probably him. Sterling could seek a court injunction preventing the NBA from expelling him. Such a move would likely happen immediately after he is voted out. He could also file a lawsuit raising breach of contract and antitrust claims.
RELATED: NBA world reacts to Silver's decision on Sterling
A breach of contract claim would contend that Sterling's contract with the NBA through his franchise agreement has been unlawfully severed. The NBA, however, is poised to stress that owners agree to language limiting opportunities for owners to sue the NBA and fellow owners. In their franchise agreements, NBA owners agree to "waiver of recourse" verbiage. The language has the effect of eliminating opportunities for owners to pursue legal recourse against the NBA and fellow owners.
An antitrust claim would likely center on both California and federal antitrust laws, and contend that the NBA and its teams have conspired in an anticompetitive way to oust Sterling and make him sell his team at below-market value. Sterling would likely cite reports the NBA may be interested in Magic Johnson buying the Clippers as evidence the league is trying to force a sale to a specific buyer, rather than permitting open bidding. Sterling might also highlight Silver's remarks today that he's confident owners will oust him as evidence of collusive activity between Silver and the owners. If Sterling were to sue under antitrust law and prevail, he would also be entitled to treble damages. Several attorneys familiar with NBA litigation tell SI.com that the possibility of an antitrust lawsuit by Sterling is high.
The prospect of Sterling suing could be a source of worry to NBA owners for at least three reasons:
1. Sterling suing over franchise ouster could undermine the lifetime ban. The ban is intended to separate Sterling from the Clippers and the NBA, and as discussed above, Sterling likely has no viable case against it. If, however, Sterling sues over franchise ouster, it would be a high-profile lawsuit and he would remain in the news. Whatever distancing of Sterling is achieved through a ban could be lost in a high-profile case. It is also a case that could last years, as antitrust cases often do.
2. Sterling suing may lead to pretrial discovery, which could be designed in part to embarrass other owners and NBA officials of any bigoted remarks or beliefs on their part. Keep in mind, if Sterling is ousted because of racism, he would likely demand that evidence showing that other owners and officials are also racist be shared. He would use such information to portray his penalty as unwarranted and contradicted by the conduct of those who ousted him. Sterling might request emails and other records from owners and officials that depict them in a negative light. Sterling has owned the Clippers for 33 years, which suggests that he has had many interactions -- including private conversations with league officials and owners. If there are other owners who are racist or bigoted, it stands to reason Sterling who knows who they are.
3. If Sterling wins or extracts a settlement, not only could NBA owners be on the hook for an expensive fee, but Sterling would seem victorious. The appearance of him winning in court would greatly detract from the important social message accomplished by the lifetime ban.



Important tax law considerations: avoiding capital gain taxes

Sterling, who is 80 or 81 years old (his exact birthdate remains a mystery), has a key financial reason to fight the sale of the Clippers: to avoid capital gain taxes. This insight is from Robert Raiola senior manager in the Sports & Entertainment Group of the Accounting Firm O'Connor Davies, LLP. Sterling reportedly purchased the Clippers for $12.5 million in 1981. If he sold the team today, it would be worth at least $600 million, perhaps closer to $1 billion. Between federal and state capital gains taxes, Sterling would pay an approximately 33 percent tax rate on the difference between what he paid for the team and what he sold it for. For instance, if he sold the Clippers today for $1 billion, Sterling would pay capital gain taxes of 33 percent on a gain of $987.5 million. As a result, Sterling would owe Federal & state capital gain taxes of approximately $329 million.
RELATED: NBPA applauds decisions, but wants Clippers sold
If instead Sterling holds onto the Clippers and some time from now passes away, his family would inherit the team. The family would inherit the team with a value pegged to its fair market value. As Raiola stresses, the new value of the team would be crucial for purposes of capital gains tax. Here's why: if the family inherited the Clippers and then sold it, they would only pay a capitals gain tax on the difference between the value of the team when they inherited it and the value of it when sold. For instance, if the family inherited the team and it was worth $700 million and then they sold it for $800 million, they would only pay capital gain taxes on a gain of $100 million. In that instance, there would be a comparatively modest tax bill of $33 million.
If the Sterling family inherited the Clippers and simultaneously sold it, Raiola tells SI.com, they would pay no capital gains tax, but still have estate tax issues. However, a transaction could be structured whereby the employees of the Clippers organization could own a percentage of the team. In such case, the capital gain taxes on a sale could be partially or fully avoided.
These tax considerations make it more likely that Sterling will fight the NBA to hold onto the Clippers. Even if he ultimately loses a legal battle, the process of losing could take years to play out in court. At the risk of sounding macabre, Sterling may be motivated to wage a protracted legal battle in order to keep the team for as long as he lives.
Important family law considerations: what if Mrs. Sterling files for divorce?

Sterling and his wife, Shelly, are reportedly estranged but not divorced. One potential legal complication for the NBA would be if Mrs. Sterling filed for divorce before the NBA terminated her husband's ownership of the Clippers. California is a "community law" state, which means Mrs. Sterling would likely be entitled to half of her husband's assets. One of his key assets is obviously the Clippers. Mrs. Sterling could potentially use divorce court proceedings to slow down the NBA's ouster of her husband, as she would have a vested stake in any sale of the Clippers.
Could Sterling transfer ownership to Mrs. Sterling?

It is possible that Sterling could try to transfer ownership of the Clippers to Mrs. Sterling before the NBA ousts him. The NBA, however, would have to approve such a maneuver, as Mrs. Sterling would be subject to requirements the league uses to evaluate prospective owners. There is virtually no chance the NBA would approve Mrs. Sterling in this scenario as it would be a clear attempt to evade the NBA's discipline of her husband.
Michael McCann is a Massachusetts attorney and the founding director of the Sports and Entertainment Law Institute at the University of New Hampshire School of Law. He is also the distinguished visiting Hall of Fame Professor of Law at Mississippi College School of Law.


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nb...ba-adam-silver-clippers-lawsuit-lifetime-ban/
 
Re: What I'd like to hear Silver say

Read my whole post, not just the first sentence.

I did. And I get that you think this is more about his past, which it might be. But, that is not what Silver addressed, and that will not necessarily show up in future decisions. Again why this is bad law. I maintain my concern that now all an offended class of people have to do is threaten the owners of franchises to speak out against the bad guy or face a threatened boycott. The owners may not want the bad PR so they willingly sacrifice one of their own under facts that may be much less egregious than those of this case.

I just hope those members of easily offended classes (seemingly increasing by the day) don't latch onto this as another way to advance a political agenda. Silver opened the door.
 
Re: Banned for life and $2.5 mm fine!

Sterling gave consent to the NBA to use it? He can't be that stupid is he?

Got a link of that?
Not really. Cases regarding racial discrimination are one of the hardest types of lawsuits to win. To prove racial discrimination, you need proof that your employer had a conscious intentional bias against you. This is very difficult to prove in a court of law. Short of Sterling admitting that he is racist - which the tapes prove - it is almost impossible to prove this. For example, it is a statistical fact that employment discrimination exists against Blacks. Statistically, a White person with a felony record is more likely to get a callback than a Black person who is equally qualified with a clean record. Yet, the amount of racial discrimination that exists is greatly disproportionate to the amount of racial discrimination cases won.

Elgin lost and he happened to settle the case with the DoJ, but that doesn't exonerate him. I have a hard time believing that, for no reason, everyone from employees to government agencies to journalists have been singling out Sterling and accusing him of racial discrimination for decades. This tape lends credence to all the accusations.

I thought this link did a good job summarizing Sterling's history:
http://news.yahoo.com/clippers-sterl...2759--spt.html
 

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