OT: Greatest Center Ever

[Stevenson]

Here in the dog days of summer as we wait for some news, any news, I thought a friendly debate about the greatest players ever would be fun and take our minds of our so far drag of a Blazer summer.

Today: Who is the best center ever?

I say Wilt. He dominated like no one ever, even leading the league in assists the year he decided to do that. Russ what as great winner, but Wilt was a great player.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Here in the dog days of summer as we wait for some news, any news, I thought a friendly debate about the greatest players ever would be fun and take our minds of our so far drag of a Blazer summer.

Today: Who is the best center ever?

I say Wilt. He dominated like no one ever, even leading the league in assists the year he decided to do that. Russ what as great winner, but Wilt was a great player.

Wilt primarily dominated due to his size/strength advantages. I tend to lean towards Kareem in this debate, because his dominance was based a lot more on skill than just size.

Plus, the arguments for Wilt are based on stats; the arguments for Russell are based on rings. Kareem had 6 rings, and is the all-time leading scorer, not to mention one of the most dominant college players ever.

 

[Stevenson]

Other notable things about Kareem: No one has blocked more shots, played in more All-Star games, won more MVP awards, or played more seasons.

 

[Mediocre Man]

I went Shaq over Chamberlain because of competition. In order I have them listed like this. I included Sabas because you didn't specify NBA center.


Shaq
Wilt
Kareem
Sabas (other)
Russell
Hakeem
Walton

 

[Fez Hammersticks]

Bill Russell: Kiss the rings, bitches.

I'd have to say it's a toss up between Wilt and Shaq.

However, If Sabonis came over and stayed healthy this poll would look a lot different.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

May I point out that it sucks that 3 of the 6 listed were L*kers. Damn them.

 

[Stevenson]

15 years in the league would have put Sabonis near the top of the list. He might be my favorite Blazer ever. He was the best passing center I ever saw.

 

[Minstrel]

I would probably place Wilt Chamberlain at the top of the heap, as well. I don't think he was far ahead of later players, as his raw stats suggest due to different environments, but I think he was probably the greatest mix of offense, rebounding and defense.

I'd probably rank centers as:

Top Tier
Wilt Chamberlain
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
David Robinson
Bill Russell

Second Tier
Moses Malone
Patrick Ewing
Bill Walton

 

[mook]

I have to say, if you want to talk about a guy who put up dominant stats in a very competitive era, and also was a key person in 6 championships, there's a pretty good argument for Kareem.

Wilt put up more dominant stats, but the competition wasn't there.

Russel got all the rings, but again, it was playing against a lot of guys who wouldn't even make it to the bench in the modern NBA.

Hakeem was great, but if Jordan doesn't retire he probably doesn't win a championship. Even still, he only won 2.

Shaq was a more dominant center, but over fewer years and didn't win as many championships.

I'd probably put Kareem first and Shaq second. I realize that's pretty controversial, but you have to look at the level of competition back in the Wilt/Russel era. Great competitors need great competition to really prove themselves.

 

[BengalDuck]

Kareem. Greatest big man in history.

 

[Eastoff]

You guys REALLY need to read up about russell. anyone that put in wilt, does not know how russell shut him down EVERY TIME!!!! Seriously he was SICK, read up the wiki stuff about russell vs Wilt. He did not get the points like Wilt, but he was THE defensive king. He would drop off his man to help, and then be quick enough to come back to his man. Wilt's ppg would drop like 14 or something whenever he faced Russell.

 

[MAS RipCity]

In his prime, there is no one better than "The Dream"

 

[maybeso]

I am old enough to have seen Wilt play. Most of the comments here do not give him the credit he deserves. If we are talking individual performance, he is the greatest. If we are talking team performance, Russell is the greatest. If we are talking a blend of both, Jabbar comes pretty close.

Wilt was a champion high jumper and short distance sprinter in college. He is probably the greatest athlete to ever play basketball. His stats are inflated because he was that good, and that fast, and that strong. They changed the rules for free throws so he couldn't dunk from the line. Russell could not handle Wilt one on one. Russell was smarter though and played better team defense.

Wilt's biggest problem was the jealousy of those around him and his own personal arrogance. It was only by the time he got to LA that he started to play team ball and there he was still dominant as a rebounder and defensive specialist.

 

[PapaG]

You guys REALLY need to read up about russell. anyone that put in wilt, does not know how russell shut him down EVERY TIME!!!! Seriously he was SICK, read up the wiki stuff about russell vs Wilt. He did not get the points like Wilt, but he was THE defensive king. He would drop off his man to help, and then be quick enough to come back to his man. Wilt's ppg would drop like 14 or something whenever he faced Russell.

I don't know about that. I wouldn't say Russell shut down Wilt every time. Look at their career head-to-head numbers.

Chamberlain averaged exactly 28.7 points and 28.7 rebounds a game during those 142 games against Russell, the point totals brought down a bit by his late-in-career transformation from relentless scoring machine to more well-rounded player. In the early years Wilt scored 50 or more points seven times against Russell, including a high of 62 on January 14, 1962. By the time we could start referring to these men as "aging warriors," the numbers were a bit more back to earth. Wilt's high game in their final year was 35, and three times he scored in single figures.

Russell's totals against Wilt were 14.5 points and 23.7 rebounds per game. His highest-scoring game against his arch rival was 37.

http://hoopedia.nba.com/index.php?title=Russell_vs._Wilt

 

[Shooter]

I went Shaq over Chamberlain because of competition.

Wow. That's crazy. Chamberlain was so much more dominant than Shaq it isn't funny, and the "competition" argument doesn't hold much sway with me. Did you ever actually see Chamberlain play?

 

[Mediocre Man]

Wow. That's crazy. Chamberlain was so much more dominant than Shaq it isn't funny, and the "competition" argument doesn't hold much sway with me. Did you ever actually see Chamberlain play?

Very little, and I was young, but yes.


I'm not going to arue with anyone, unless they choose Walton. It is a personal opinion, and I think you can make cases for Wilt, Kareem, Russell and Shaq as the best center ever.

 

[Stevenson]

I am old enough to have seen Wilt play. Most of the comments here do not give him the credit he deserves. If we are talking individual performance, he is the greatest. If we are talking team performance, Russell is the greatest. If we are talking a blend of both, Jabbar comes pretty close.

Wilt was a champion high jumper and short distance sprinter in college. He is probably the greatest athlete to ever play basketball. His stats are inflated because he was that good, and that fast, and that strong. They changed the rules for free throws so he couldn't dunk from the line. Russell could not handle Wilt one on one. Russell was smarter though and played better team defense.

Wilt's biggest problem was the jealousy of those around him and his own personal arrogance. It was only by the time he got to LA that he started to play team ball and there he was still dominant as a rebounder and defensive specialist.

Yes, I watched him play too (damn we're old!). They also widened the lane because of him. I also think the goal tending rule came in because of Wilt. He has the all time high in rebounding in one game - 55! I once heard that on the day he scored 100 he also set the all time high score on a pinball machine near the arena.

 

[Shooter]

Yes, I watched him play too (damn we're old!). They also widened the lane because of him. I also think the goal tending rule came in because of Wilt. He has the all time high in rebounding in one game - 55! I once heard that on the day he scored 100 he also set the all time high score on a pinball machine near the arena.

Absolutely right. Some of Chamberlain's individual feats are mind-boggling. The NBA has never changed its rules because of Shaq, but they did because of Chamberlain.

 

[MadeFromDust]

To me it's between Kareem and Wilt. You can make a terrific argument for either one. It depends on what you value more in a player.

 

[Minstrel]

Good discussion for now. Enjoy it while you can. In ten or fifteen years, of course, Oden will make it a closed subject.

 

[Harry's Raincoat]

I voted Wilt Chamberlain before reading any posts.

He caused many rule changes in the league. He was a giant among boys. But, he played during a time when the Celtics had 5 all-stars on their side and won most of the championships during his era.

Individually, he was the greatest yet.

 

[Furball]

Wilt could have dominated in any area. I think he one of the only athletes that you can look at and say that. His size/speed/power would transcend. Jabbar was the same way. But when you listen to Red Arbauch talk, he says that Russell could have put up incredible numbers as well, but he was always a team first kind of player. Also, to use the Sabonis references are unfair. He didn't stay healthy. If you make excuses for Sabonis, you have to make the same excuses for Bill Walton.
So:
1. Wilt
2. Russell
3. Jabbar
4. Olajuwon
5. Shaq

 

[The Professional Fan]

In his prime, there is no one better than "The Dream"

Ditto. He's the best center I've seen with my own two eyes. It's impossible for me to say Wilt or Russell because I never saw them play. Kareem I barely remember. So yes, Hakeem is the one.

I still think it would have been possible for Houston to win at least one ring had Jordan not retired. Probably the 2nd ring, the one with Clyde. Hakeem was so unbelievably unstoppable the two years they won the championship. He was Jordan-esque in that regard. Completely dominant.

 

[BLAZER PROPHET]

Bill Russell: Kiss the rings, bitches.

I'd have to say it's a toss up between Wilt and Shaq.

However, If Sabonis came over and stayed healthy this poll would look a lot different.

Interesting point on Sabonis.

 

[Minstrel]

I think Olajuwon gets short shrift. His defense and rebounding was as good as anyone who's ever played. He was Bill Russell--with a tremendous offensive game.

David Robinson also tends to get underrated, IMO. He wasn't the best ever but his numbers and defense compare pretty well to just about any center ever. I'd rank him a bit lower due to his offense being less post-oriented...he was tougher to build an inside-out offense around, so he presented slightly more team-building challenge than players like Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Abdul-Jabbar and O'Neal. Still, if I had Robinson as my center, I wouldn't consider myself to lose a center matchup to any significant degree no matter who from history my opponent had.

 

[Shooter]

So yes, Hakeem is the one.

With all due respect, Hakeem is NOT "the one." I saw him play and I liked him very much, and I also saw Chamberlain, Jabbar, Shaq and Walton. All of them were better than Hakeem--especially Wilt and Jabbar.

 

[andalusian]

Hakeem was a great center - and probably my favorite to watch - but what made him special was the fact that he had a center size and strength (even if not an overwhelming one like Wilt/Shaq) - but he had guard moves and agility.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Other notable things about Kareem: No one has blocked more shots, played in more All-Star games, won more MVP awards, or played more seasons.

I'm sure you're wrong about the blocks - they didn't KEEP blocks for at least most of Wilt's and Russell's careers, so nobody knows how many they blocked. And is the seasons thing still true or did Karl Malone beat it?

 

[Denny Crane]

You guys REALLY need to read up about russell. anyone that put in wilt, does not know how russell shut him down EVERY TIME!!!! Seriously he was SICK, read up the wiki stuff about russell vs Wilt. He did not get the points like Wilt, but he was THE defensive king. He would drop off his man to help, and then be quick enough to come back to his man. Wilt's ppg would drop like 14 or something whenever he faced Russell.

Wilt destroyed Russell in head to head match ups, nearly every time. Huge games against him. The Celtics' strategy was to let Wilt have his but nobody else got theirs. Worked.

I am old enough to have seen Wilt play. Most of the comments here do not give him the credit he deserves. If we are talking individual performance, he is the greatest. If we are talking team performance, Russell is the greatest. If we are talking a blend of both, Jabbar comes pretty close.

Wilt was a champion high jumper and short distance sprinter in college. He is probably the greatest athlete to ever play basketball. His stats are inflated because he was that good, and that fast, and that strong. They changed the rules for free throws so he couldn't dunk from the line. Russell could not handle Wilt one on one. Russell was smarter though and played better team defense.

Wilt's biggest problem was the jealousy of those around him and his own personal arrogance. It was only by the time he got to LA that he started to play team ball and there he was still dominant as a rebounder and defensive specialist.

Truth. I saw him play, too.

Wilt
Russell
Kareem

Sabonis was awesome before he got hurt. Too bad few people got to really see him play, or play at full health against the NBA's best.

Believe it or not, I think Bill Cartwright was right up there before he got hurt. Ralph Sampson, too.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

I still think it would have been possible for Houston to win at least one ring had Jordan not retired. Probably the 2nd ring, the one with Clyde. Hakeem was so unbelievably unstoppable the two years they won the championship. He was Jordan-esque in that regard. Completely dominant.

Why give up either? Check out the Bulls' record against the Rockets. I believe the Rockets just dominated the Bulls in that era. It was the other Western Conference teams that denied Olajuwon more rings.