OT: Greatest Center Ever

[Eastoff]

I don't know about that. I wouldn't say Russell shut down Wilt every time. Look at their career head-to-head numbers.

But you have to compare that to his ppg when he wasn't playing Russell that same season. I went back to the wiki entry and I can't seem to find a comparison from his regular season, so I'm going to concede perhaps I was wrong. Also I don't have time tonight to read that whole thing again to check. But I do agree Wilt was by far the best numbers guy ever.

 

[Eastoff]

Good discussion for now. Enjoy it while you can. In ten or fifteen years, of course, Oden will make it a closed subject.

<3 minstrel

 

[alex42083]

Ditto. He's the best center I've seen with my own two eyes. It's impossible for me to say Wilt or Russell because I never saw them play. Kareem I barely remember. So yes, Hakeem is the one.

I still think it would have been possible for Houston to win at least one ring had Jordan not retired. Probably the 2nd ring, the one with Clyde. Hakeem was so unbelievably unstoppable the two years they won the championship. He was Jordan-esque in that regard. Completely dominant.

Yeah, I'm in the same boat. I'd love to get that perspective from living in the 50's and 60's and seeing Wilt and Russell play, and in the 70's to see an early Kareem play.. but from what I've seen with my own eyes since the late 80's, Olajuwon was just unstoppable and the best I've seen.

He was a defensive player of the year, a dominant shot blocker, an MVP, a Finals MVP and was a beast on the post. He made the Admiral look silly in the '95 WCF when Robinson was the MVP that year.
It was a clinic watching the Dream play basketball.

But hell.. how can you argue against a man who scored 100 freakin' points in one game. Amazing..

 

[STOMP]

Q? Greatest Center Ever

the answer depends largely on whats valued most. If you want stats it's Wilt. Championships Russell. Excellence over a long career, maybe Kareem gets the nod. If the Wilt-Russell era is discounted because of the evolution of the game since then, maybe Shaq and Hakeem get some mention. In my special blending of what I value, Hakeem was the best my 42 year old eyes have seen.

I recall this question being asked to Dicky V and he spun it in an interesting way... If you could select one guy at the peak of his abilities to go to war with vs the others at their best in the playoffs, who would you choose? He went with Bill Walton. I could see Sabas getting some mention here too.

STOMP

 

[Minstrel]

I recall this question being asked to Dicky V and he spun it in an interesting way... If you could select one guy at the peak of his abilities to go to war with vs the others at their best in the playoffs, who would you choose? He went with Bill Walton. I could see Sabas getting some mention here too.

I usually go with that, too. I've often called Olajuwon "the greatest peak center ever" due to his remarkable blend of top-tier defense, top-tier rebounding and top-tier offense. Chamberlain, though, was so dominant and had a longer stretch of dominance, so he's a great pick if one factors in peak and career.

Sabonis is interesting, considering his legend. It's a shame he never got to show his peak form in the NBA. I remember Bill Walton once said that Sabonis was the best 18 year old center he ever saw. That's some pretty huge praise.

 

[STOMP]

Sabonis is interesting, considering his legend. It's a shame he never got to show his peak form in the NBA. I remember Bill Walton once said that Sabonis was the best 18 year old center he ever saw. That's some pretty huge praise.

yup. From the same article Walton stated that the 2nd best 18 year old center he ever saw was a tie between Kareem and Greg.

STOMP

 

[Minstrel]

yup. From the same article Walton stated that the 2nd best 18 year old center he ever saw was a tie between Kareem and Greg.

Really? I didn't know he had said it recently enough to include Oden. The Sabonis thing he's said for a long time.

That's very cool, that he sees so much in Oden. I remember I saw Oden play in the McDonald's All-American game (I believe it was that game, ESPN televised it) and I thought he looked phenomenal. I was distraught that he couldn't come straight to the NBA due to Stern's edict, in a year I expected Portland to get the #1 pick.

All's well that ends well, though.

 

[RoyToy]

Kareem.

 

[BTOWN_HUSTLA]

i can only comment on those that I've seen play, so I say Prime Shaq....can't touch that....made me hate him so bad.

 

[Draco]

Jordan's lucky he never had to face Hakeem in the finals.

Do you think Luc Longley could guard him?

 

[Minstrel]

Jordan's lucky he never had to face Hakeem in the finals.

Do you think Luc Longley could guard him?

No, but Longley couldn't guard Shaq either and the Bulls swept the Magic pretty easily. Their team defense was amazing, with Pippen, Jordan, Rodman and Harper. All stand-out team defenders.

I think the Rockets would have given the Bulls their toughest Finals matchups, but I'd have definitely favoured the Bulls in that matchup. Would have been great to watch, though!

 

[Idog1976]

In his prime, there is no one better than "The Dream"

I have to agree people keep talking about competition. Hakeem destroyed the Admiral, owned Ewing, punked O'neal and would have won an absolute crapload of rings if he had had some decent perimeter help. He also happened to live during the era of the G.O.A.T and the minute MJ enters the equation you can just throw sanity out the window. Kobe wouldn't have a ring if he was in MJ's era neither would anyone else when MJ was in his prime. So seriously look at the level of competition. Hakeem played in the golden age of NBA big men and dominated them all and he was only 6'11".

No center has ever shown the skill and footwork that Hakeem showed. I've never seen a big man quite so dominant, if only we had won that coin toss or not talked to him it would have been Hakeem/Drexler vs. MJ for a decade.

Wilt was truly amazing but we can never know how he would have played against top flight NBA centers or even a modern Power Forward. He did play against Russell so that's obviously impressive, apparently winning the head to head matchups. It's a shame Wilt isn't from the modern era.

Russel was a defensive great and my god the rings but again a different era.

Kareem is arguably more skilled then Hakeem but it is damn close. Kareem also didn't play against the kind of competition that Hakeem faced and destroyed.

Lastly, Shaq's dominance is owed at least a bit to the fact that he NEVER faced quality competition at the 5 after his first 3 or so years in the league. Shaq was the only big man worth a damn in the game during his era for crying out loud the shell of Arvydas Sabonis held him better then anyone else.

Sabas also deserves honorable mention for his pre-injury days where he was truly incredible, but again we can't know for certain that he would have crushed the likes of Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem and Shaq because of the injury and staying in Europe.

When considering the level of competition, the skill set and the kind of players around him you have to go with the Dream.

 

[Stevenson]

I'm surprised Russell hasn't gotten more votes.

 

[huevonkiller]

I have to agree people keep talking about competition. Hakeem destroyed the Admiral, owned Ewing, punked O'neal and would have won an absolute crapload of rings if he had had some decent perimeter help. He also happened to live during the era of the G.O.A.T and the minute MJ enters the equation you can just throw sanity out the window. Kobe wouldn't have a ring if he was in MJ's era neither would anyone else when MJ was in his prime. So seriously look at the level of competition. Hakeem played in the golden age of NBA big men and dominated them all and he was only 6'11".

No center has ever shown the skill and footwork that Hakeem showed. I've never seen a big man quite so dominant, if only we had won that coin toss or not talked to him it would have been Hakeem/Drexler vs. MJ for a decade.

Wilt was truly amazing but we can never know how he would have played against top flight NBA centers or even a modern Power Forward.

Russel was a defensive great and my god the rings but again a different era.

Kareem is arguably more skilled then Hakeem but it is damn close. Kareem also didn't play against the kind of competition that Hakeem faced and destroyed.

Lastly, Shaq's dominance is owed at least a bit to the fact that he NEVER faced quality competition at the 5 after his first 3 or so years in the league. Shaq was the only big man worth a damn in the game during his era for crying out loud the shell of Arvydas Sabonis held him better then anyone else.

Sabas also deserves honorable mention for his pre-injury days where he was truly incredible, but again we can't know for certain that he would have crushed the likes of Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem and Shaq because of the injury and staying in Europe.

When considering the level of competition, the skill set and the kind of players around him you have to go with the Dream.

I don't really think there was any dominant competition for the Bulls in the 90's. You have Jordan and then you add him to a team that won 55 games without him. The 80s were more competitive team-wise.

 

[SheedSoNasty]

Why isn't Greg Oden on that list?

For me, I said Hakeem Olajuwon. He was the most graceful and yet dominant center I remember watching. The dream shake was a thing of beauty and it often showed just how agile he was. Fantastic player on both ends always fun to watch. He may not have had the success of other big centers, but I feel he had the most skill and athleticism.

I'll always remember the time he sank a three during the all-star game right after Shaq tried one and failed miserably. Couldn't have made me happier since I down right hated Shaq back then. Also, when he had a come-from-out-of-nowhere block on a Rod Strickland layup during the playoffs one year. At least I think it was Strickland.

 

[Minstrel]

Olajuwon is high among the career leaders in steals. That always amuses me. He was cat quick on defense and might just take it away from you. And not just from stone-handed big guys...I saw him swipe the ball from a slashing guard/wing a fair amount. He was a freak.

 

[SheedSoNasty]

Sabas also deserves honorable mention for his pre-injury days where he was truly incredible, but again we can't know for certain that he would have crushed the likes of Ewing, Robinson, Hakeem and Shaq because of the injury and staying in Europe.

Replace "that" with "how badly" and you'd be right. Watching a broken down Sabonis was truly astonishing. No big man has ever had the court vision and passing ability that he had. On top of that, the guy had range and could hit any kind of shot he was given. It's INCREDIBLY sad we were never blessed with the opportunity of seeing him in Portland during his prime. I bet anything MJ wouldn't have six rings right now.

 

[Idog1976]

Replace "that" with "how badly" and you'd be right. Watching a broken down Sabonis was truly astonishing. No big man has ever had the court vision and passing ability that he had. On top of that, the guy had range and could hit any kind of shot he was given. It's INCREDIBLY sad we were never blessed with the opportunity of seeing him in Portland during his prime. I bet anything MJ wouldn't have six rings right now.

Yeah I agree with that, but we can't say it with certainty. I definitely think Sabas instead of Dukworth = Dynasty with MJ taking a few.

 

[blazerboy30]

I think Olajuwon gets short shrift. His defense and rebounding was as good as anyone who's ever played. He was Bill Russell--with a tremendous offensive game.

David Robinson also tends to get underrated, IMO. He wasn't the best ever but his numbers and defense compare pretty well to just about any center ever. I'd rank him a bit lower due to his offense being less post-oriented...he was tougher to build an inside-out offense around, so he presented slightly more team-building challenge than players like Chamberlain, Olajuwon, Abdul-Jabbar and O'Neal. Still, if I had Robinson as my center, I wouldn't consider myself to lose a center matchup to any significant degree no matter who from history my opponent had.

Luckily we got to see Olajuwan and Robinson go head-to-head when they were both at / near their peaks. Robinson was a great center, but I don't think he was in the same category as Olajuwan. Which playoff series was it that Olajuwan absolutely DESTROYED Robinson? Hakeem made Robinson look pretty average.

We missed a peak Olajuwon versus a peak Shaq by a few years. That one is a tough call for me. Shaq clearly had the size and power advantage, but Olajuwon had the clear advantage with respect to skill, agility and speed. I might have to give the nod to Olajuwon there also.

 

[STOMP]

I have to agree people keep talking about competition. Hakeem destroyed the Admiral, owned Ewing, punked O'neal and would have won an absolute crapload of rings if he had had some decent perimeter help. He also happened to live during the era of the G.O.A.T and the minute MJ enters the equation you can just throw sanity out the window. Kobe wouldn't have a ring if he was in MJ's era neither would anyone else when MJ was in his prime. So seriously look at the level of competition. Hakeem played in the golden age of NBA big men and dominated them all and he was only 6'11".

No center has ever shown the skill and footwork that Hakeem showed. I've never seen a big man quite so dominant, if only we had won that coin toss or not talked to him it would have been Hakeem/Drexler vs. MJ for a decade.

A TP Clyde Kersey Cliff and Dream team would have had Mike shrugging for other reasons.

Wilt was truly amazing but we can never know how he would have played against top flight NBA centers or even a modern Power Forward.

I heard an anecdote from HOFer Bob Lanier on Wilt. He recalled boxing out Wilt on a play only to have Mr. 20,000 put a hand under his armpit and lift him up off the ground and place him aside "like I was a toy". Bob's listed playing weight was 250lbs. Wilt was a 7'1 gazelle/ox... a little before my time, but I'm thinking he could have survived KG.

STOMP

 

[THE HCP]

Wow. That's crazy. Chamberlain was so much more dominant than Shaq it isn't funny, and the "competition" argument doesn't hold much sway with me. Did you ever actually see Chamberlain play?

Sorry brother. What Wilt accomplished was amazing. BUT............... The "Centers" back in the day were like 6'8 slow-ass white-guys( Mark Madsen type) I voted for Kareem, but could you imagine what Shaq would have done to those guys if he got to play them night in and night out.

 

[Minstrel]

Luckily we got to see Olajuwan and Robinson go head-to-head when they were both at / near their peaks. Robinson was a great center, but I don't think he was in the same category as Olajuwan. Which playoff series was it that Olajuwan absolutely DESTROYED Robinson? Hakeem made Robinson look pretty average.

One playoff series doesn't prove a lot, though it was a bad highlight (lowlight?) for Robinson. I have a head-to-head comparison document that someone made once for Olajwuon, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing and Mutombo.

Against Robinson, Olajuwon averaged 26.3 ppg, 47.6%. But against Shaq, he averaged 27.8 ppg, 46.6% and against Ewing, he averaged 26.3 ppg, 51.1%.

Robinson averaged 22.1 ppg, 46.8% against Olajuwon, Shaq averaged 23.9 ppg, 57.6% against Olajuwon and Ewing averaged 20.7 ppg, 41%.

Rebounding isn't in the chart, unfortunately. So yes, Olajuwon did win the matchup against Robinson, but he also defeated Shaq head-to-head by similar margin. I guess this is evidence that Olajuwon was pretty damn good. I don't think it diminishes Robinson much, though, unless we also say Shaq was not in the same category.

I think all three (Olajuwon, Shaq and Robinson) were in the same category, but Olajuwon was tops and Shaq was second. And that's how I have them ranked too.

 

[blazerboy30]

One playoff series doesn't prove a lot, though it was a bad highlight (lowlight?) for Robinson. I have a head-to-head comparison document that someone made once for Olajwuon, Robinson, Shaq, Ewing and Mutombo.

Against Robinson, Olajuwon averaged 26.3 ppg, 47.6%. But against Shaq, he averaged 27.8 ppg, 46.6% and against Ewing, he averaged 26.3 ppg, 51.1%.

Robinson averaged 22.1 ppg, 46.8% against Olajuwon, Shaq averaged 23.9 ppg, 57.6% against Olajuwon and Ewing averaged 20.7 ppg, 41%.

Rebounding isn't in the chart, unfortunately. So yes, Olajuwon did win the matchup against Robinson, but he also defeated Shaq head-to-head by similar margin. I guess this is evidence that Olajuwon was pretty damn good. I don't think it diminishes Robinson much, though, unless we also say Shaq was not in the same category.

I think all three (Olajuwon, Shaq and Robinson) were in the same category, but Olajuwon was tops and Shaq was second. And that's how I have them ranked too.

I don't think those stats are quite fair to Shaq though. He wasn't at his peak or prime when he was going head-to-head with peak / prime Robinson and Olajuwon.

I would say that Olajuwon and Shaq are much closer to each other (regardless of who is higher) than Robinson is to either one of them.

 

[Minstrel]

I don't think those stats are quite fair to Shaq though. He wasn't at his peak or prime when he was going head-to-head with peak / prime Robinson and Olajuwon.

Not precisely his peak, but I would say it was within his prime. His peak was roughly 1997-2002, but his prime was basically from 1993 until his decline. He was putting up a 28.5 PER in his second season...!

Also, it's worth noting that his defensive and offensive peaks were at essentially different times. He was a much better defender earlier on in his career, as a member of the Magic. Then he went to LA, began getting bigger and (IMO) lazier on defense and his defense suffered.

So I think the numbers are relatively fair to Shaq.

 

[Stevenson]

Sorry brother. What Wilt accomplished was amazing. BUT............... The "Centers" back in the day were like 6'8 slow-ass white-guys( Mark Madsen type) .

Sorry brother, but that's totally inaccurate. First of all, Russell is the greatest defensive player ever, and Wilt played him like 20 times a year, counting the playoffs. Nate Thurmond was a stud. Wilt played against a young Kareem (Lew Alcindor), Willis Reed, Walt Bellamy...

 

[STOMP]

Sorry brother. What Wilt accomplished was amazing. BUT............... The "Centers" back in the day were like 6'8 slow-ass white-guys( Mark Madsen type)

besides Bill Russell, here are a few HOF examples that run counter to your depiction of what it was like back in Wilt's day. Of course there were far fewer teams as well.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/t/thurmna01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/reedwi01.html
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/laniebo01.html

STOMP

 

[PtldPlatypus]

If one looks at PER, there are some interesting numbers. Wilt led the league in PER 8 of 9 years from '60-'68. Kareem did it 9 of 11 years from '71-'81. Robinson did from 3 straight years '94-'96, and Shaq did 5 straight from '98-'02. Hakeem and Russell never did (not surprising, as they were more defensive centers).

From '94-'03, Shaq posted a PER of 28.5 or higher 8 times, as many as Wilt and Kareem combined. And even despite the past 4 years of decline, Shaq's career PER of 26.9 is higher than anyone else on this list--second all-time behind only Jordan.

I think it's very possible that many of us (including myself) are giving Shaq short-schrift in this discussion.

 

[Minstrel]

And even despite the past 4 years of decline, Shaq's career PER of 26.9 is higher than anyone else on this list--second all-time behind only Jordan.

Worth noting that Robinson's is 26.2, so essentially identical. And Robinson was definitely considered a much superior defender.

 

[MARIS61]

Arvydas Sabonis.

Not very close seconds are Bill Walton and Hakeem Olajuwan.

Then there are the guys who faced much less talent: Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Moses, Parish.

Then there is Shaq who was simply allowed to foul with impunity every time he touched the ball.

Then David Robinson who was also very highly favored by the refs.

But Sabas, Bill and Hakeem were the only real deals this league has ever seen at the C.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Worth noting that Robinson's is 26.2, so essentially identical. And Robinson was definitely considered a much superior defender.

In my mind, the fact that Robinson never led a team to a title is a HUGE knock against him in this discussion, so I didn't even consider him.