OT: Kobe vs Jordan?

[Shapecity]

His numbers weren't that great in two title runs. I can understand why he doesn't always get credit for those.

His impact on the game trumps those numbers.

 

[huevonkiller]

His impact on the game trumps those numbers.

As an All-star, not a superstar.

 

[Minstrel]

The post is filled with lots of BS...lol

I'm sorry that facts refute your fandom.

His PER peaked several years ago and has fallen off since then, so yes, he's past his prime. He's still very good, but not nearly as good as he used to be.

The idea that Bryant was clearly better than Shaquille O'Neal, Tim Duncan, Kevin Garnett (in their primes) or clearly better than LeBron James, Dwyane Wade or Chris Paul today is not borne out by on-court production (or even by "reputations," as O'Neal and Duncan are often argued as the greatest player of their generation and LeBron James is widely considered the best player in basketball now).

Other than that, it's all BS. LOL

And the idea that Wilt vs. Jordan is a bad comparison due to position is ridiculous. They're the two players most often considered the greatest ever. This isn't football...all the positions do the same things: score, rebound, pass and defend. Different positions just do different amounts of each. They're all comparable, and Jordan and Chamberlain are the two most common GOAT candidates, based on dominance. Kobe isn't in that discussion by anyone rational.

 

[Minstrel]

Kobe past his prime ? Have you not seen the playoffs LMAO. When you average 27, 5, and 5 during the season and 30, 5, 5 in the playoffs with a shitload of injuries you are in your prime.

Think before you speak kid.

If players were judged by the intelligence of the fans arguing on their behalf, Kobe would be the worst player of his generation.

(huevonkiller is the exception that proves the rule. He's high quality.)

 

[Wheels]

If players were judged by the intelligence of the fans arguing on their behalf, Kobe would be the worst player of his generation.

(huevonkiller is the exception that proves the rule. He's high quality.)

lol whatever "kid"

Thats where people lose me, seriously calling people kid, its worse than "learn the game.."

 

[huevonkiller]

If players were judged by the intelligence of the fans arguing on their behalf, Kobe would be the worst player of his generation.

(huevonkiller is the exception that proves the rule. He's high quality.)

Just trying to be neutral, thanks.

 

[Wheels]

Just trying to be neutral, thanks.

get ready to be called not 100% Laker fan. Dont worry between your not being only 50% a fan, and my onlw being 50% a fan.. together we are a full fan!!!

 

[Minstrel]

get ready to be called not 100% Laker fan. Dont worry between your not being only 50% a fan, and my onlw being 50% a fan.. together we are a full fan!!!

50% Mexican, 50% fan...so that's your ethnic make-up.

 

[Minstrel]

Oh, and I should note...I don't think it's at all fair to claim that Kobe was carried to the first three titles. I think Shaq was the most important player, as I consider him the most dominant player of his (post-Jordan) era, but Kobe was a Hall of Fame talent partner, and the Lakers absolutely needed him in order to win those titles. Kobe deserves full "credit" for those titles.

Of course, in all cases (including Jordan), I'm dubious about judging players by titles won. But if titles are important, Kobe legitimately has four of them.

 

[huevonkiller]

get ready to be called not 100% Laker fan. Dont worry between your not being only 50% a fan, and my onlw being 50% a fan.. together we are a full fan!!!

Good point, lol.

 

[Wheels]

50% Mexican, 50% fan...so that's your ethnic make-up.

lol I'm a traitor to my country and my team!!!

There is a small chance that I might have commited some light treason

 

[kobeownslebron]

so you think Kobe is in his physical prime right now?

He isn't as athletic as he once was but because of his jumpshot and postgame it makes up for any athletcism he has lost.

 

[hasoos]

When Portland played against Jordan, I feared what Jordan could do. It's not the same with Kobe. Because Kobe can score a bunch, and you can still get the win. Not so much with Jordan.

 

[blazerboy30]

I would like to take this moment, to welcome the mouthy noobs.

Haha. Nice.

This topic sure is bringing out the Kobe and Laker fanboys.

 

[KingSpeed]

Jordan never scored 81 points, the comparison will never end on both sides.

Jordan never had to. He took care of teams like the lowly Raptors early. And if we're talking about points scored in a game then Wilt is the best ever. Wilt's stats were insane.

 

[hasoos]

get ready to be called not 100% Laker fan. Dont worry between your not being only 50% a fan, and my onlw being 50% a fan.. together we are a full fan!!!

More like 100% Lame.

 

[KingSpeed]

I love how we bitch and moan about other players. I for one would KILL to have Kobe on this team, and have Titles. I'm not saying Kobe is MJ by any means, but people need to quit letting their hate cloud them. We would love to have Kobe on this team with what he has done, and won. Those who say they wouldnt are fools.

No one is questioning Kobe's abilities. The question is whether or not he's better than Jordan.

 

[huevonkiller]

Jordan and all these superstars suffer at some point in their careers.

Kobe has the single game record for PER. I will give him that.

 

[KingSpeed]

Major knock on Hakeem's claim to the throne: He only won titles when Jordan was in retirement. Those were widely regarded as some of the weakest championship teams ever... That doesn't directly answer your question (which is impossible to answer with anything more than idle speculation), but it at least adds some context.

Actually, Jordan played in 1995 when Houston won his second title.

 

[KingSpeed]

People need to accept the fact that both players were the most dominant players during their time. its unfair to compare them, rules have changed, some teams have gotten stronger and some have weakened, you could argue MJ played against weaker teams since there was more expansion teams during his time, but you could also argue that fouls are more easily given during kobe's time and the list can go on and on. To say that Kobe isn't anywhere near MJ's level is BS. He is the closest thing to MJ. Vince Carter, T-Mac, Grant Hill, Penny Hardaway, Wade, are very talented but have failed to maitain the same level as kobe. Has there ever been a better clutch shooter, more aggresive player after Jordan?...if so, who?. Lets stop the comparisons, at least till kobe retires, then we can see who was better or at least in our opinions. This will be a similar Pele Vs Maradonna opinion war, that will never end.

Umm.... Kobe didn't get ONE first place vote for MVP ths year. Not a single one. So how can he be the most dominant player of his time. He wasn't even the most dominant player this year!

 

[KingSpeed]

First off Jordan didn't face any great defenses like the Pistons or Celtics which is why never lost an NBA Finals.

Second you can't bring that into this argument because Kobe was as crucial to those titles if not more crucial than Shaq was because of his clutch shot making, same with Gasol plus when Gasol played soft it was Kobe who carried and elevated that team to the Finals 3 years in a row. If it wasn't for Kobe right now the Lakers would be irelevant right now.

You also make it sound like Jordan didn't play with any stars are you kidding me ? He played with Pippen who is a top 50 player off all time and Jordan didn't do shut in the playoffs until Pippen got there.
.

I didn't say that Jordan didn't play with another star. I said he didn't play with an offensive presence in the post. He absolutely NO ONE to throw it to inside. NO ONE. Kobe had Shaq and Pau. Do you know how hard it is to win without a post scorer??? It's almost impossible and Jordan did it SIX TIMES.

 

[handiman]

Actually, Jordan played in 1995 when Houston won his second title.

You truly are the master or irrelevant stats... It should have been plainly obvious that I was referring to the roughly two years Jordan was playing baseball. Returning for the last month of the season and a so-so playoff run didn't exactly have any effect on Hakeem's second title.

 

[KingSpeed]

Kobe's best two years beat Hakeem's best two years in win shares. Kobe had a more dominant playoff run last year than Hakeem ever did.

Hakeem Olajuwon is one of the most overrated players because of those title runs. He was very good in the playoffs, he wasn't all-time historic. He was never on Jordan's level statistically.

That said Kobe's not on Jordan's level either. But by far neither is Olajuwon.

Apparently, you didn't see Hakeem's series against the Spurs in 1995. It was the most dominant performance in a playoff series I have ever seen and I've watched for the last 20 years. David Robinson was the MVP that year and Hakeem completely dominanted him. It was unbelievable. He is not overrated.

 

[Mr.Gunner]

Jordan never had to. He took care of teams like the lowly Raptors early. And if we're talking about points scored in a game then Wilt is the best ever. Wilt's stats were insane.

Great answer or may I say Excuse, loving that....lol

 

[Sex Panther]

I can't believe this thread has gone on for 4 pages. Holy shit.

First, Kobe Bryant isn't better than Michael Jordan. I think people often overrate Jordan and his abilities, but no, Kobe isn't better or on the same level. Though I will admit Kobe one fire is probably hotter than just about anyone in the league ever, but that's not enough to say his overall body of work is better than Jordan's. No matter the era, i'm one of the few who think stats don't tell the whole story, and though Kobe will probably be a top 10 (MAYBE a top 5 player, but that'll be difficult) player ever, I just don't believe he'll catch up, much less surpass Jordan.

And secondly, KingSpeed, if you feel so strongly about Kobe not being better, and as "so sure it's not even close" then why the hell would you make a thread about it? It's obvious: to get some attention and anger some Kobe Bryant fans. You should be above this, what are you, 10? C'mon bro.

 

[Sex Panther]

Some of you guys and your hate/love for a player--as much as to cloud your views on the guy and what he's done--is crazy.

 

[Wheels]

He isn't as athletic as he once was but because of his jumpshot and postgame it makes up for any athletcism he has lost.

I'm not questioning Kobe's abilities. If you were around here long enough, you would know that I'm one of the bigger Kobe supporters/defenders in the Blazers forum. Although Minstrel is right up there with me

I'm just saying yes he is past his prime. But I guess any "kid" can see that.

 

[huevonkiller]

Apparently, you didn't see Hakeem's series against the Spurs in 1995. It was the most dominant performance in a playoff series I have ever seen and I've watched for the last 20 years. David Robinson was the MVP that year and Hakeem completely dominanted him. It was unbelievable. He is not overrated.

I'm not sure I would go that far, I'm sure it was an impressive series. Drexler had more playoff win shares in that title run.

Hakeem had an extremely high usage rate that year. Being able to produce a high PER on fewer touches is something WS takes into account. As well as various other factors.

 

[KingSpeed]

I see that you failed to read my post, Jordan was easily most dominant cause he did not have much competition during his time, Malone, Stockton, Drexler, Barkley,Ewing, the rest were probably on his team which he had a better overall team than kobe's ever had. And how has James over shadowed kobe's carrer?... the guy is a media darling and has nothing to prove on championship level and is a choker in the big games something kobe isn't. Shaq in the other hand was the most dominant player during his LA carreer, never quite managed to keep the same level. Both of your so called greater than kobe players will be sitting at home watching the NBA finals, probably hoping Kobe doesn't get his 5th ring.

Kobe has choked so many times,it's ridiculous. Highlights:

Kobe airballing 4 shots at the end of a must win game against the Jazz in 97.

Kobe refusing to shot in the second half against the Suns in Game 7 in 2006. Jordan NEVER did that.

Kobe GAGGING on the biggest game of his career at the time- Game 6 in Boston in the NBA Finals. Kobe scored 22 pts on 7 of 21 shooting and he let his team lose by 39 points. Jordan never did that.

As for LeBron, he led his team to the NBA Finals in his 4th year out of high school with no other All Star on his team When Kobe had no other All Star on his team (see 2005), he didn't even make the playoffs.

 

[Wheels]

Some of you guys and your hate/love for a player--as much as to cloud your views on the guy and what he's done--is crazy.

embarrasses me to be a Blazer fan sometimes.