OT: LeBron vs. Jordan (first 6 years)

[LameR]

Holy cow!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 What a dick!

To be fair, Kwame Brown is a terrible basketball player.

 

[Natebishop3]

I'm sorry.... LeBron never had to deal with hand checking, the bad boy Detroit Pistons, or the Riley New York Knicks. The NBA is MUCH softer now, and LeBron is benefiting from it. I would LOVE to see LeBron drive into the lane and meet Bill Laimbeer or Charles Oakley.

 

[Minstrel]

I'm sorry.... LeBron never had to deal with hand checking, the bad boy Detroit Pistons, or the Riley New York Knicks. The NBA is MUCH softer now, and LeBron is benefiting from it. I would LOVE to see LeBron drive into the lane and meet Bill Laimbeer or Charles Oakley.

I don't think that's true at all. The "Bad Boys" Pistons and Knicks under Pat Riley ushered in a new era of basketball, a more physical, clog-it-up style of defense. They were well-known for it because they were unique. Now, EVERY team plays that defense. Guard the paint, collapse on slashers and pound them. That's why slashers like McGrady, Kobe, Vince Carter, etc, got more jump-shot oriented as they got older...they couldn't take the pounding season after season as they aged. People talk about Wade's chances of breaking down because he attacks the hoop so relentlessly despite getting pounded.

Defense was a lot less contact-oriented through the '80s, and a lot less about rotations and keeping a guy around the hoop. Jordan often got to the hoop by beating one guy, his man, off the dribble. These days, you essentially have to go past or through several defenders to dunk or lay it up. The Pistons instituted the "Jordan rules"...now every team uses the "Jordan rules." Make sure the elite slasher has to go through several guys, put him on his ass, make him shoot free throws.

Fans complain every game how their team is getting mugged by the opposing team and not getting calls: blame it on Pat Riley and his Knicks. He famously said, "If you foul every time down, the refs can't call them all." He was right and teams took that lesson to heart, which has led to near-constant contact on defense.

 

[BalancedMan]

Excellent post by Minstrel as usual, I agree with your analysis and use of statistics in the comparison. They're very close. When you read this article by Hollinger, you see that only LeBron is close to having a PER that compares to Jordan's top seasons: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=PERDiem-090324

In any case, I think that LeBron will find it easier to "Jedi Jordan" transition his game as he gets older and looses a step athletically. Maybe he'll have Jordan-esqe levels of BB IQ and Competitive Fire, but I doubt it. I give him the opportunity to age gracefully though, because when he's 33 he may no longer be a fast and giant SF, but a PF who is still faster than his peers. Because of his height (and I know that he's played some 4 before, even 5 for the national team), size and strength, he can be a matchup nightmare for someone, for years.

Without considering the possibilities of injuries, when LeBron is done in the league, there will be a strong debate over the GOAT. LeBron has done more at a younger age, without his "Scottie" (although his teammates aren't bad by any means, just no other HOF'er in their prime).

 

[MARIS61]

you think jordan would be as dominant if he just entered the league now? or see LBJ go up against BIRD???

you cant compare them... coz of the era's they entered the league in

At least we can agree they're both waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better than Kobe the anal-rapist will ever be.

 

[Idog1976]

Jordan's 3 point percentage obviously indicates that he wouldn't be a good fit with the Blazers.

"You must spread around reputation more before giving it to AmirIcon again."


I litteraly LMAO'd when I read that.

 

[Idog1976]

ordan-Lebron
25.8-18.3
27.5-25.7
29.8-28.1
31.7-24.5
31.1-29.1
31.2-31.7

That's interesting. Lebron's 1st year PER was equivalent to a bust center coming off of MF. Hmmm. Maybe Oden will be alright after all.

Note for the stupid: I am not saying Oden will be as good as LeBron.

 

[mook]

Lebron's 1st year PER was equivalent to a bust center coming off of MF. Hmmm. Maybe Oden will be alright after all.

Really good point.

I remember some criticism in LeBron's first year that he was overrated--a guy who would be good, but never the dominant player he was hyped up to be in high school. A lot of people said Carmello Anthony would be remembered as the best player from that draft.

Sometimes a player is like an onion, with greater layers unraveling at every stage (Chris Paul).

Sometimes a player is like pie, shallow on the surface, deeper underneath, and then surprising you with a new level of shallowness underneath that (Zach Randolph).

And some guys are parfait, tasty at every level if you just take the time to notice. That's LeBron James and, to a lesser degree, Greg Oden. Everybody likes parfait.

With apologies to Shrek and Doctor Horrible.

 

[Minstrel]

And some guys are parfait, tasty at every level if you just take the time to notice. That's LeBron James and, to a lesser degree, Greg Oden. Everybody likes parfait.

You're calling Oden soft, like a parfait? It's because of people like you that he lost some of his enjoyment of basketball.

 

[Natebishop3]

I don't think that's true at all. The "Bad Boys" Pistons and Knicks under Pat Riley ushered in a new era of basketball, a more physical, clog-it-up style of defense. They were well-known for it because they were unique. Now, EVERY team plays that defense. Guard the paint, collapse on slashers and pound them. That's why slashers like McGrady, Kobe, Vince Carter, etc, got more jump-shot oriented as they got older...they couldn't take the pounding season after season as they aged. People talk about Wade's chances of breaking down because he attacks the hoop so relentlessly despite getting pounded.

Defense was a lot less contact-oriented through the '80s, and a lot less about rotations and keeping a guy around the hoop. Jordan often got to the hoop by beating one guy, his man, off the dribble. These days, you essentially have to go past or through several defenders to dunk or lay it up. The Pistons instituted the "Jordan rules"...now every team uses the "Jordan rules." Make sure the elite slasher has to go through several guys, put him on his ass, make him shoot free throws.

Fans complain every game how their team is getting mugged by the opposing team and not getting calls: blame it on Pat Riley and his Knicks. He famously said, "If you foul every time down, the refs can't call them all." He was right and teams took that lesson to heart, which has led to near-constant contact on defense.

That still doesn't address the issue of hand checking.

 

[Minstrel]

That still doesn't address the issue of hand checking.

No, but they are two different eras. Jordan faced hand-checking but also less physical, compacted interior defenses in his early career. James doesn't deal with hand-checking, but does face the tougher interior defenses. Overall, I don't think James has it easier.

 

[TheFreshPrince]

No, but they are two different eras. Jordan faced hand-checking but also less physical, compacted interior defenses in his early career. James doesn't deal with hand-checking, but does face the tougher interior defenses. Overall, I don't think James has it easier.

James has it easier simply because of his size and strength. If guys can't hand check and body him up on the perimeter he can get enough momentum to easily get into the lane to draw a foul that the refs will call no matter what. Add to that that post defenders can't use their forearms anymore. Lebron would not be as good of a scorer in jordan's era. If you put a big strong guy on the perimeter on him, he isn't gonna be flying in for dunks and ft's like he is today. He just isn't quick enough.

 

[Minstrel]

James has it easier simply because of his size and strength. If guys can't hand check and body him up on the perimeter he can get enough momentum to easily get into the lane to draw a foul that the refs will call no matter what. Add to that that post defenders can't use their forearms anymore. Lebron would not be as good of a scorer in jordan's era. If you put a big strong guy on the perimeter on him, he isn't gonna be flying in for dunks and ft's like he is today. He just isn't quick enough.

Can't say I agree. He's not as quick as Jordan, but he's bigger and stronger. His combination of quickness, strength and size would be an absolute match-up nightmare in any era. No "big, strong guy" could stay with James on the perimeter, with or without hand-checking.

 

[TheFreshPrince]

Can't say I agree. He's not as quick as Jordan, but he's bigger and stronger. His combination of quickness, strength and size would be an absolute match-up nightmare in any era. No "big, strong guy" could stay with James on the perimeter, with or without hand-checking.

but it'd be easier for them to stick with him then than now, so he wouldn't be as good.... right?

 

[Minstrel]

but it'd be easier for them to stick with him then than now, so he wouldn't be as good.... right?

As I said previously, hand-checking would work against him...the less-congested and less-physical interior defenses of that time would work in his favour. I don't think James faces easier defenses to exploit than Jordan did in the second half of the 1980s.

 

[Денг Гордон]

Jordan was a much more efficient scorer than Lebron. Jordan shot 59.2 TS%, while Lebron shot 55.5 TS%. Jordan has the best TS% of the 11 players that averaged over 27 points a game in their first 6 seasons in the NBA, and the 2nd highest PPG.

 

[KingSpeed]

I voted LeBron because he took his team (a very weak team) to the Finals in his 4th season. Take a moment to think about that. The Cavs were the worst team in the basketball (dead last) during his senior year of high school. He joined the team the following year and got them to the NBA FINALS by what would've been his senior year of college. That is UNBELIEVABLE. I remember how great Jordan was but I am also a witness to how great LeBron is.

 

[KingSpeed]

lol

I used to like him. Until all this crap he has pulled lately with the playoffs and the Nike dunk tapes. I don't remember Jordan being a prick like that! He was always classy as far as I remember. I was a lot younger in the Jordan era though.

Jordan was a prick.

 

[KingSpeed]

Anyone who voted for LeBron has forgotten what Jordan was like. Go watch some tapes.

Proof is in the pudding.

NBA Finals appearances:

LeBron 1
Jordan 0

 

[Da_O]

I voted LeBron because he took his team (a very weak team) to the Finals in his 4th season. Take a moment to think about that. The Cavs were the worst team in the basketball (dead last) during his senior year of high school. He joined the team the following year and got them to the NBA FINALS by what would've been his senior year of college. That is UNBELIEVABLE. I remember how great Jordan was but I am also a witness to how great LeBron is.

Lebron also led them to a sweep in his 4th season. Hmm Jordan never let that happen to his team. I also don't think Jordan lost a series where his team was heavily favored. To be fair, the Cavs probably had the easiest road to the finals of any team. A broken down Nets and Wizards team, and the only truly good opponent the Pistons. They really didn't belong there.

Minstrel, people use the age argument, but I always go by games played. And by the games played in both their first six seasons, Jordan was the better player. Just wanted to note that Jordan too had an MVP award during his first six years but he also was a 3-tim All-NBA defensive 1st team and had a DPOY award under his belt. So if were taking into account both sides of the ball Jordan was the superior player.

Lebron's is okay too though,

 

[Da_O]

No, but they are two different eras. Jordan faced hand-checking but also less physical, compacted interior defenses in his early career. James doesn't deal with hand-checking, but does face the tougher interior defenses. Overall, I don't think James has it easier.

The difference is zone defense. Zone was called an illegal defense before the handchecking rule. Plus scouting nowadays is much more advanced than it was back then. So defenses now are better prepared to stop you and can throw different types of zones and traps to stop you.

Minstrel though, I still believed Jordan faced tougher interior defenses. You have to remember with the handchecking rule also came the defensive 3 second rule, which clears the lane up quite a bit.

But to be fair to Michael, zone defense was illegal, but that didn't stop teams from trying.

[video=youtube;du-C-TvHqzA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA&feature=channel_page[/video]

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Since the question, as phrased in the thread title, is "first 6 years", then (in my opinion) the question should be answered on that level--eg, the age discrepancy should not be factored.

The fact that the rules for each era are so different does significantly discount the value of statistical comparison. So for me, the most compelling argument is the level of superiority of each player over his peers within his era.

Scoring titles--Jordan 5, Lebron 1. All NBA 1st team--Jordan 4, Lebron 3. All Defensive team--Jordan 3, Lebron 1. DPoY--Jordan 1, Lebron 0. Finals appearances--Jordan 0, Lebron 1.

To me, it's a pretty clear-cut case for Jordan.

 

[BalancedMan]

James has it easier simply because of his size and strength. If guys can't hand check and body him up on the perimeter he can get enough momentum to easily get into the lane to draw a foul that the refs will call no matter what. Add to that that post defenders can't use their forearms anymore. Lebron would not be as good of a scorer in jordan's era. If you put a big strong guy on the perimeter on him, he isn't gonna be flying in for dunks and ft's like he is today. He just isn't quick enough.

Because Craig Ehlo could stop LeBron...right. How many "big strong perimeter defenders" were there that you can name out of your head without looking it up. That you think could stop LeBron particularly better than people can (can't*) do now.

 

[BalancedMan]

Since the question, as phrased in the thread title, is "first 6 years", then (in my opinion) the question should be answered on that level--eg, the age discrepancy should not be factored.

The fact that the rules for each era are so different does significantly discount the value of statistical comparison. So for me, the most compelling argument is the level of superiority of each player over his peers within his era.

Scoring titles--Jordan 5, Lebron 1. All NBA 1st team--Jordan 4, Lebron 3. All Defensive team--Jordan 3, Lebron 1. DPoY--Jordan 1, Lebron 0. Finals appearances--Jordan 0, Lebron 1.

To me, it's a pretty clear-cut case for Jordan.

I feel that a scoring title by itself is overrated, especially when you consider the other metrics like assists, rebounds, pace, and usage rates.

 

[Natebishop3]

The difference is zone defense. Zone was called an illegal defense before the handchecking rule. Plus scouting nowadays is much more advanced than it was back then. So defenses now are better prepared to stop you and can throw different types of zones and traps to stop you.

Minstrel though, I still believed Jordan faced tougher interior defenses. You have to remember with the handchecking rule also came the defensive 3 second rule, which clears the lane up quite a bit.

But to be fair to Michael, zone defense was illegal, but that didn't stop teams from trying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du-C-TvHqzA&feature=channel_page

It's really sad to watch how easy it is for LeBron to get wide open lobs.

 

[hasoos]

you think jordan would be as dominant if he just entered the league now? or see LBJ go up against BIRD???

you cant compare them... coz of the era's they entered the league in

At the same time, back then you could put your hands on somebody when defending them. Now you can't. If Jordan played now he would have averaged 6 more points a game, easily.

 

[Natebishop3]

At the same time, back then you could put your hands on somebody when defending them. Now you can't. If Jordan played now he would have averaged 6 more points a game, easily.

Not to mention, the star treatment now is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

 

[hasoos]

Not to mention, the star treatment now is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Oh comon it was ridiculous then too. Crazy ridiculous.

 

[TheFreshPrince]

Because Craig Ehlo could stop LeBron...right. How many "big strong perimeter defenders" were there that you can name out of your head without looking it up. That you think could stop LeBron particularly better than people can (can't*) do now.

Okay, we'll go with pippen, g hill, rodman, barkley, and kemp off the top of my head (not many of those guys from jordan's first 6 years, but still same era). Funny how you think me not looking it up makes your argument good or something. The guys i can't think of still existed lol.

Plus look at post defense, guys can't even use their forearm anymore. Lebron would get frustrated beyond belief in jordan's era imo. He would get pushed around, not get the calls he gets now, and his play would suffer. We have all seen many instances of Lebrons immaturity. I really don't think he could handle himself in Jordan's era, people were more physical, and less scared of superstars. The league didn't protect their guys back then like they do now.

 

[Natebishop3]

Oh comon it was ridiculous then too. Crazy ridiculous.

I know it was, but I feel like it's worse now because Stern is trying disparately to keep the NBA on the level it was when Jordan/Magic/Bird were playing.