OT: My Attempt at a Decent Carter Trade

[kobimel]

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/featur...0~136~1705~183&teams=27~27~27~17~17&te=&cash=

Nets Receive:

Antonio Daniels
Caron Butler
2010 2nd Round Pick (pretty sure Washington has one)

Wizards Receive:

Josh Boone
Vince Carter
Maurice Ager

Nets get a great shooting guard (Butler), who'll be here on a decent salary for the next 3 years, plus a serviceable backup point guard who can contrast Dooling's bench defense with some offense (Daniels). His contract expires in 2010 (fitting into the 2-year contract pattern).

The Wizards get an all-star in VC, who reunites with Antawn Jamison and forms one of the most dangerous backcourts in the league with Arenas. Boone comes as a dependable backup PF/C and forms a potentially solid future frontcourt for the Wizards (McGee, Blatche, Boone, McGuire). Boone is also a great replacement for Bredan Haywood, who could be out for the season. Ager is thrown in as a low risk guy who can give the Wizards some much needed outside shooting in 10 mpg off the bench.

We need to understand our situation: in the next 2 offseasons, Boone, Anderson, CDR, Lopez, Yi and Williams will all need to get extensions. Obviously, we can't afford to extend all 6 of them AND keep enough cap space to sign LeBron or another high caliber FA. I see Boone as the big man with the least potential out of him, Williams and Lopez, so as tough as it would be to see him go, we're not going to be able to afford keeping all three after it's all said and done.

Major problem in this trade is that Washington now have 18 (!) players under contract. Yikes.

 

[drexlersdad]

wizards never ever deal caron for an aging player.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

It was a good attempt, but I don't see the Wizards trading Caron Butler anytime soon. I might even say he would be more untouchable than Arenas on that team. Maybe.

 

[Real]

Caron Butler is incredibly underrated. Him and Jamison kept that team afloat the entire year.

 

[#1_War_Poet_ForLife]

It was a good attempt, but I don't see the Wizards trading Caron Butler anytime soon. I might even say he would be more untouchable than Arenas on that team. Maybe.

Didn't someone in the Blazer board want to trade for him/Prince, for peanuts?

 

[kobimel]

wizards never ever deal caron for an aging player.

It was a good attempt, but I don't see the Wizards trading Caron Butler anytime soon. I might even say he would be more untouchable than Arenas on that team. Maybe.

Caron Butler is incredibly underrated. Him and Jamison kept that team afloat the entire year.

That's why I think the Wizards are on the losing side of this trade. Butler is awesome.

Then again, he's isn't young himself anymore (turns 29 in March) and has had recent injury problems (missed 20 games at the end of last season, played 63 games the season before). VC has been pretty much injury free lately, and when you have made-out-of-glass Arenas on your team you need a guy who can play 75 games per season.

drexlersdad: I re-read your post and now I get the feeling that you're talking about rebuilding in the sense that the Wiz wouldn't trade Butler unless they decide to start over, right? Can't argue with that. If the Wiz want to rebuild now, this isn't the right trade for them. BUT a trio of Arenas/VC/Jamison could definitely lead them deep into the Eastern Conference playoffs, barring serious injuries. They could beat Philly, Orlando, Toronto, Detroit and Cleveland in a 7 games series. That means they could decide to try and win now, while the East is still not at it's best.

 

[r3drumNYNJ]

As a VC fan, I would still do it. Butler is natrually a SF tho. Wiz wouldnt wanna give up Butler but they are in need of a big man so maybe they would want Boone. We also get a needed guard in Daniels too. I think its a fair trade if u take out the 2nd rnd draft pick but with Carter aging, I dont think Wiz will want his contract.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

I think Daniels is very much needed in Washington with Arenas' status in the air.

 

[drexlersdad]

i truly think vc will be dealt for salary cap relief ala gasol. maybe slightly better prospects. just my opinion though.

 

[JfizzleBlazer]

Didn't someone in the Blazer board want to trade for him/Prince, for peanuts?

I don't remember them wanting Butler, I do remember Prince and Marion. Maybe I just didn't read that post.

 

[kobimel]

i truly think vc will be dealt for salary cap relief ala gasol. maybe slightly better prospects. just my opinion though.

Nets are aiming for salary cap relief in 2010. This deal gives them just that, plus an affordable, stable, talented replacement for VC who'll still be here in the '10 offseason in order to attract FAs.

As for prospects, IMO the Nets have enough prospects right now, and we don't need to get into a situation like the Blazers where you have 10 talented young guys who need contract extensions that you can't afford. We have no money to lose with the Brooklyn move coming up, unlike Paul Allen. We'll also get more talented young guys in the '09 and '10 drafts.

 

[FOMW]

There's no harm in speculating. Heck, this board would be dead without it. But to inject some realism into this particular speculation, listen to the comments of Thorn and Kiki last year about Carter post Kidd-trade. They were very impressed with his immediate embrace of supreme leadership and ownership of the team. I don't think they necessarily expected it, but it had something to do, I suspect, with why Jefferson was moved instead of Carter. While Jefferson deflected the ultimate personal accountability that goes along with being a leader, Carter accepted it.

Recall that Carter played all-star caliber basketball from February forward on the same ankle injury that so debilitated Jefferson two years ago and rendered him so ineffective that he had in-season surgery. With the help of several cortisone shots (which pose their own risks with repeated use), the "softie" Carter played and produced through pain at a time when the supposed leader of the Nets abandoned the team and demanded a trade and when ignorant, completely uninformed commentators declared Carter washed up physically, oblivious to the ankle injury that would soon require substantial surgery and rehab to repair. Over the summer, he attended summer league games, coached the youngsters in the huddle, had the team to his house, kept in contact with them over the summer, organized voluntary practices in August and September that had almost 100% attendance, and has unquestionably demonstrated a focus and motivation coming into this season that is rivaled only by what he demonstrated during the season after his trade to NJ. His defensive intensity in pre season has been model and further shows that he is dedicating himself to giving his coach all that he is asking for. Though it's still very early, the preseason results for the team are encouraging enough that the brass will undoubtedly want to see more of what this group can do before moving anyone of real consequence.

With that in mind, why in the world would they trade Carter NOW or anytime before they have a chance to see how these guys play together for 2-3 months of regular season games? Don't you think they at least want to see whether this extraordinary offseason of leadership by Vince is going to pay dividends on court before they decide to ship him out?

The Carter trade talk referenced in the cited articles and blogs is strictly the result of lazy writers who know FAR less about the state of the Nets than the average poster here. They trot out the same conventional "wisdom" over and over: Carter is soft and an underachieving choker, Carter is a malcontent, Carter is declining physically and therefore as a basketball player, Carter's contract is an albatross, the Nets suck, they will be among the very worst teams in the league this year, and therefore there is no point in the Nets keeping Carter. These are the same group of writers who are going to have to eat major shares of crow when the Nets prove to be a very competitive, scrappy team that will be in the hunt for a playoff birth while being led by a focussed, extremely well-rounded 31-year old former dunk champion.

 

[kobimel]

There's no harm in speculating. Heck, this board would be dead without it. But to inject some realism into this particular speculation, listen to the comments of Thorn and Kiki last year about Carter post Kidd-trade. They were very impressed with his immediate embrace of supreme leadership and ownership of the team. I don't think they necessarily expected it, but it had something to do, I suspect, with why Jefferson was moved instead of Carter. While Jefferson deflected the ultimate personal accountability that goes along with being a leader, Carter accepted it.

Recall that Carter played all-star caliber basketball from February forward on the same ankle injury that so debilitated Jefferson two years ago and rendered him so ineffective that he had in-season surgery. With the help of several cortisone shots (which pose their own risks with repeated use), the "softie" Carter played and produced through pain at a time when the supposed leader of the Nets abandoned the team and demanded a trade and when ignorant, completely uninformed commentators declared Carter washed up physically, oblivious to the ankle injury that would soon require substantial surgery and rehab to repair. Over the summer, he attended summer league games, coached the youngsters in the huddle, had the team to his house, kept in contact with them over the summer, organized voluntary practices in August and September that had almost 100% attendance, and has unquestionably demonstrated a focus and motivation coming into this season that is rivaled only by what he demonstrated during the season after his trade to NJ. His defensive intensity in pre season has been model and further shows that he is dedicating himself to giving his coach all that he is asking for. Though it's still very early, the preseason results for the team are encouraging enough that the brass will undoubtedly want to see more of what this group can do before moving anyone of real consequence.

With that in mind, why in the world would they trade Carter NOW or anytime before they have a chance to see how these guys play together for 2-3 months of regular season games? Don't you think they at least want to see whether this extraordinary offseason of leadership by Vince is going to pay dividends on court before they decide to ship him out?

The Carter trade talk referenced in the cited articles and blogs is strictly the result of lazy writers who know FAR less about the state of the Nets than the average poster here. They trot out the same conventional "wisdom" over and over: Carter is soft and an underachieving choker, Carter is a malcontent, Carter is declining physically and therefore as a basketball player, Carter's contract is an albatross, the Nets suck, they will be among the very worst teams in the league this year, and therefore there is no point in the Nets keeping Carter. These are the same group of writers who are going to have to eat major shares of crow when the Nets prove to be a very competitive, scrappy team that will be in the hunt for a playoff birth while being led by a focussed, extremely well-rounded 31-year old former dunk champion.

Does it REALLY matter whether the Nets win 25 or 45 games this season? Obviously, the current roster isn't enough to win the title, the conference or the division. Whether Carter can lead this team to a decent record or not isn't important. The Nets aren't winning the championship this season, with Carter or without. The management can see that, they're not blind. A few preseason games don't change a thing. He may embrace the leadership role and actually do well as the leader of this team, but at the end of the season the Nets will still be in the lottery/out of the playoffs in the early rounds if a miracle happens. I have nothing against VC, he's definitely not soft and he has played impressive basketball so far in the pre-season, but he probably won't be playing like an all-star in 2 years, when the Nets plan to start contending again. We should trade him while his value is still decent.

The only reasons I see as valid to keep Carter on the roster are:

a)We enjoy watching him play.
b)He brings fans to the Meadowlands.
c)He can teach CDR a thing or two and if he really keeps up this intensity, it might rub off on some of the younger guys.

Other than that, no reason to keep VC here. Antonio Daniels can be just as much of a leader as Vince Carter can.

 

[kdub]

Butler is amazing. Eddie Jordan will be a sad, sad man for years to come if he loses Caron Butler.

 

[danxcr]

butler is an SF not SG

and id take VC over butler... stop with the VC trades... there is no reason for him to be traded... and i love him!!!


STOP

 

[MaxaMillion711]

i dont think the wizards would want to give up a young, extremely versatile player in caron to a 31 year old proven vet who "dogs it" night in and night out. ridiculous trade.

 

[FOMW]

Does it REALLY matter whether the Nets win 25 or 45 games this season? Obviously, the current roster isn't enough to win the title, the conference or the division.

It matters a great deal. If they win 45 games, they get to the playoffs, and their young players gain invaluable, irreplaceable playoff experience that will serve the team well in 2-4 years when they hope to be actual title contenders. You can't expect a team of young players that has never been to the playoffs to suddenly perform at a high level in the post season. With few exceptions, it never, ever happens that way. Teams have to build on modest post season success over a period of 3-4 years to win a title.

As Frank is always preaching, good habits are good habits, and none is more self-perpetuating than the habits of competing and winning. It breeds confidence, which is perhaps the single most important element in any championship team.

Moreover, as others have pointed out before, no top tier free agent is going to want to come to a 25 win team with a near empty arena (and if attendance sucks now, imagine it with VC gone the next two years). Even if Vince has to be traded in two years to make financial room for a FA, his interim presence is essential to maintaining the kind of win total that can make the Nets attractive.

As for whether the Nets can contend between now and then, you have to understand that I'm not as consumed with that goal as other fans are. I can gain almost as much enjoyment from watching a mediocre (in terms of wins) team as from watching a championship team. For me, it's much more about identifying with a particular team or members of that team, liking them both personally and on the court, and bonding with them (vicariously) as they try to win games. It's the competitive adventure and the chemistry of the team that most attracts and entertains me, that and the occasional jaw-dropping play from Vince.

That said, I'm not so fast to totally dismiss what they might achieve this year and next. We all need to see them really play a bit before we are going to know what expectations are reasonable for the near future. For all we know, this team could contend next year with a move or two significantly less splashy than acquiring LeBron James in 2010.

 

[networks]

There's no harm in speculating. Heck, this board would be dead without it. But to inject some realism into this particular speculation, listen to the comments of Thorn and Kiki last year about Carter post Kidd-trade. They were very impressed with his immediate embrace of supreme leadership and ownership of the team. I don't think they necessarily expected it, but it had something to do, I suspect, with why Jefferson was moved instead of Carter. While Jefferson deflected the ultimate personal accountability that goes along with being a leader, Carter accepted it.

Recall that Carter played all-star caliber basketball from February forward on the same ankle injury that so debilitated Jefferson two years ago and rendered him so ineffective that he had in-season surgery. With the help of several cortisone shots (which pose their own risks with repeated use), the "softie" Carter played and produced through pain at a time when the supposed leader of the Nets abandoned the team and demanded a trade and when ignorant, completely uninformed commentators declared Carter washed up physically, oblivious to the ankle injury that would soon require substantial surgery and rehab to repair. Over the summer, he attended summer league games, coached the youngsters in the huddle, had the team to his house, kept in contact with them over the summer, organized voluntary practices in August and September that had almost 100% attendance, and has unquestionably demonstrated a focus and motivation coming into this season that is rivaled only by what he demonstrated during the season after his trade to NJ. His defensive intensity in pre season has been model and further shows that he is dedicating himself to giving his coach all that he is asking for. Though it's still very early, the preseason results for the team are encouraging enough that the brass will undoubtedly want to see more of what this group can do before moving anyone of real consequence.

With that in mind, why in the world would they trade Carter NOW or anytime before they have a chance to see how these guys play together for 2-3 months of regular season games? Don't you think they at least want to see whether this extraordinary offseason of leadership by Vince is going to pay dividends on court before they decide to ship him out?

The Carter trade talk referenced in the cited articles and blogs is strictly the result of lazy writers who know FAR less about the state of the Nets than the average poster here. They trot out the same conventional "wisdom" over and over: Carter is soft and an underachieving choker, Carter is a malcontent, Carter is declining physically and therefore as a basketball player, Carter's contract is an albatross, the Nets suck, they will be among the very worst teams in the league this year, and therefore there is no point in the Nets keeping Carter. These are the same group of writers who are going to have to eat major shares of crow when the Nets prove to be a very competitive, scrappy team that will be in the hunt for a playoff birth while being led by a focussed, extremely well-rounded 31-year old former dunk champion.

I think you answered your own question(red) in your post in bold.

 

[danxcr]

id still take brandon roy over butler

 

[networks]

id still take brandon roy over butler

No way Portland trades Roy.

Roy and Oden are probably untouchable in Portland.

 

[Dumpy]

Carter is not going to be traded, period.

 

[Netted]

Carter is not going to be traded, period.

I agree I don't think he gets traded. I think he's important to the development of all these young guys.

BUT, if Portland offered Outlaw, Bayless, LaFrentz and the rights to Kopenen for Carter and KVH would anyone pull the trigger?

 

[Dumpy]

I agree I don't think he gets traded. I think he's important to the development of all these young guys.

BUT, if Portland offered Outlaw, Bayless, LaFrentz and the rights to Kopenen for Carter and KVH would anyone pull the trigger?

no chance. for two reasons: (1) there are no roster spots available for all those players. Getting Outlaw and Bayless for Carter would have the effect of stunting CDR's development.

(2) Carter singlehandedly brings in a LOT of revenue. Without him, the team would REALLY be in the poorhouse.

 

[Dumpy]

besides, I want to see whether this team as currently configured is any good. Maybe I'm nuts, but I think it will be pretty good, and can win 40-45 games.

 

[networks]

no chance. for two reasons: (1) there are no roster spots available for all those players. Getting Outlaw and Bayless for Carter would have the effect of stunting CDR's development.

(2) Carter singlehandedly brings in a LOT of revenue. Without him, the team would REALLY be in the poorhouse.

Good point, but we would definitely see Swift and ager get waive with a quickness.

As far as stunting CDR's growth, why would it be different then now. CDR would still get playing time. Probably more, because getting Webster and Bayless doenst mean they would get more PT then VC.

 

[MisterMontross]

Carter singlehandedly brings in a LOT of revenue. Without him, the team would REALLY be in the poorhouse.

Gotta ask. What revenue does Vince bring in?

And, this team really IS in the poorhouse.

 

[Dumpy]

Gotta ask. What revenue does Vince bring in?

And, this team really IS in the poorhouse.

merchandise sales, he is the big draw for corporate boxes, and of course there is the revenue from the five playoff games the Nets will play in this year.

 

[Netted]

no chance. for two reasons: (1) there are no roster spots available for all those players. Getting Outlaw and Bayless for Carter would have the effect of stunting CDR's development.

(2) Carter singlehandedly brings in a LOT of revenue. Without him, the team would REALLY be in the poorhouse.

Only 2 spots needed for Outlaw and Bayless, LaFrentz is injured and probably can get a roster exemption for him. If not, the insurance that covers his salary more than makes up for cutting Ager.

I probably wouldn't do it either, but the offer would give me pause.

 

[MisterMontross]

merchandise sales, he is the big draw for corporate boxes, and of course there is the revenue from the five playoff games the Nets will play in this year.

I believe his merchandise sales are divied up amongst the league, doubt that he is a big draw for corporate boxes, and I doubt that Nets will make the playoffs, although it is a possibility.

I doubt severely that Vince brings in as much money as he costs.

If Nets can deal him for expiring contract(s), a young talent or two, and a draft pick or two, I'd make the deal, and I think Thorn/Ratner would too.

Vince was being shopped HEAVILY at the trade deadline last season, according to many media sources.

 

[Dumpy]

It's possible. But remember that dealing Vince won't result in $16M in savings--the players the Nets get back have to get paid, too. Maybe they save a few million dollars. Big deal. You'd probably argue that the big savings will come in future years, since Vince's contract will be off the books, and assuming that they acquire some high-salaried player in his contract year for the deal to work. But I'd counter by saying that the Nets will ALREADY have big savings next year, simply by the fact that Swift and Hassell will be gone. That is a $10M savings, maybe half of which would go to paying their replacements. Also, a team just full of prospects will almost always lead to a never-ending spiral of ineptitude, failure, and pessimism. The Nets need to build an environment of winning, even if Vince will no longer be around by the time they are contenders, so that the youngsters are properly trained and you can attract a big free agent.

Vince may not bring in as much as he costs, but I bet he brings in as much as the difference between what he costs and what the players acquired in a deal would cost.

Anyway, I could easily be mistaken, but my impression is that some percentage of merchandise sales goes to the team, and some to the NBA (possibly to be shared among all franchises). I don't know the percentages.