OT: Suns to Wear Los Suns Jerseys for Game Two

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Rastapopoulos said:
And your basis for this confidence is the purity of heart and complete absense of prejudice amply demonstrated by all police at all times?
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More "professionalism and the code of ethics their job requires of them", yeah. If you have a problem with the police, then there are plenty of other threads.

Are you saying your solution is that since no one is perfect, no law can be enforced? When the cop shows up after I beat my wife, I don't have to go to jail b/c there is precedent for a miniscule percentage of law enforcement not performing their job properly? Hogwash. Get a better argument.
 
This reminds me of the law that says 12-y/o's can get abortions without family involvement b/c there's a chance that someone's a victim of incest, and would make the 12 y/o carry the baby to term as a punishment. Meanwhile, you can't play on the golf team as a senior in HS without getting written permission from your parents. Fringe-case legislation at its finest.
 
I think it is kinda sad. No people should be in the US working/living illegally...... ( ironic as HCP is currently working in Vancouver BC illegally!) But my grandparents live in SoCal and are full blooded Mexican. They both came over legally when they were infants. Now with this new law, my grandfather could easily be pulled over and questioned...... even though he proudly served his country in Korea! Don't like the idea of that at all.
 
HCP, he can't be pulled over w/o "Reasonable cause". Which means that, if he's speeding, he can be asked for his documentation. So can anyone. That doesn't change. This law doesn't allow for indiscriminate hate-based hazing.

I served my country, too. Since 1995 and still going. I'm whiter than snow. I was recently pulled over for doing 27 in a 25 when I come home from a Blazers' game at 2am b/c it gives police a "reasonable cause" to check to see if I'm drunk or not. Sure, it's an "inconvenience". But it's one I'll take b/c it gives them a mechanism to get bad people off the road. All your grandfather has to do is show his ID and the policeman would probably say "thank you, sir...have a safe night and try to stay under the limit" like I usually get.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
I would certainly need a better argument than the one you attributed to me. I think you managed a combination of a straw man AND a false dilemma.
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My apologies. It seemed like you were saying that you were against this law partially b/c you scoff at the ability of the police to enforce it professionally, and attribute this inability to enforce professionally to the myriad cases of police misbehavior. IF that were the case (and again, apologies if it isn't), then which laws do you think SHOULD be enforced by these unprofessional policemen, and which ones can they not enforce?
 
Kind of racist of you to imply illegal aliens are pleased as punch to sweep floors for whitey.

I've crossed paths with a bunch of them here in Beautiful Central Oregon, and most of them are highly respected drug dealers and chop-shop employees and above any menial labor of that sort.
 
BrianFromWA said:
My apologies. It seemed like you were saying that you were against this law partially b/c you scoff at the ability of the police to enforce it professionally, and attribute this inability to enforce professionally to the myriad cases of police misbehavior. IF that were the case (and again, apologies if it isn't), then which laws do you think SHOULD be enforced by these unprofessional policemen, and which ones can they not enforce?
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How about ones that don't actively encourage them to racially profile people?
 
Rastapopoulos said:
How about ones that don't actively encourage them to racially profile people?
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so you'd be completely fine with this law if it said "with reasonable cause to be pulled over, etc., all people (not just Mexican-looking ones) must produce ID or be subject to the consequences?" I'm fine with that.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I'm on the other side of the fence. First, I don't think that this will lead to widespread "Driving while Latino" pullovers. What it will do is a) enforce a federal policy at a state level, b) get people who shouldn't be here out of here, and c) allow people to see that we're serious about doing things the right way. And, honestly, if the safety of the citizenry of AZ (and the rest of the US) goes up b/c a few people are inconvenienced, I'm ok with that. Which is why I support sobriety checkpoints, airport security checks and all the time it takes to pull those stupid inkblot badges off of sweaters I buy.
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Ok, you lost me with that last one. Inkblot badges on sweaters? Is that a euphemism? Maybe I don't buy enough (any) sweaters to know?

barfo
 
barfo said:
Ok, you lost me with that last one. Inkblot badges on sweaters? Is that a euphemism? Maybe I don't buy enough (any) sweaters to know?

barfo
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The anti-shoplifting devices that generally take forever for the sales force to remove from the clothing just purchased.
 
HCP said:
You haven't posted here enough for your opinion to mean anything to us.
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I love the difference between you and I. I totally thought that same thing, yet you thought AND then said it.
 
BrianFromWA said:
HCP, he can't be pulled over w/o "Reasonable cause". Which means that, if he's speeding, he can be asked for his documentation. So can anyone. That doesn't change. This law doesn't allow for indiscriminate hate-based hazing.

I served my country, too. Since 1995 and still going. I'm whiter than snow. I was recently pulled over for doing 27 in a 25 when I come home from a Blazers' game at 2am b/c it gives police a "reasonable cause" to check to see if I'm drunk or not. Sure, it's an "inconvenience". But it's one I'll take b/c it gives them a mechanism to get bad people off the road. All your grandfather has to do is show his ID and the policeman would probably say "thank you, sir...have a safe night and try to stay under the limit" like I usually get.
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Anyone can be asked for documentation proving they're a legal citizen, but let's be perfectly honest here: The chances of a white person of possible illegal status from a foreign nation being asked to show documentation proving they're in the country legally is slim to none. It's going to happen to people of color, and the reason the law is flawed is because it gives people in a position of power a lawful excuse to engage in racial profiling and racism.

The idea of solving the undocumented immigrant problem needs to be fixed, but this is a horrible way. You cannot give racists a chance to be justified, and that is what this law does.
 
I'm a little bit shocked at the responses in here making the assumption that cops in AZ are racists looking for an opportunity to wield their illegal author-i-tuh.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I'm a little bit shocked at the responses in here making the assumption that cops in AZ are racists looking for an opportunity to wield their illegal author-i-tuh.
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Humans are naturally prejudiced. I know you don't believe in evolution, but as far as I'm concerned, it's an evolved behaviour. It stood humans in good stead prior to the advent of major societies. It was good, for example, to develop a prejudice toward all tigers that they were terrorists and should be run from. No need to see the intent of each particular tiger...run from them all.

It's much less viable in civilized society, where all white people or black people or women people aren't the same. But it's ingrained in us, part of our nature.

So, in that sense, cops are prejudicial, as are we all. I don't think cops are particularly prejudicial, as a class...I just don't think any law should require people to selectively step in on others based on "looking wrong" to them. What "looks wrong" is going to be heavily determined by prejudice. Natural but still not good.
 
<-=*PdX*=-> said:
Everyone should be mandated to have a state/government issued ID or Drivers License and on it should say national status. If people are here legally then what is the problem? They have nothing to worry about. If all the illegals are that upset then either take the necessary steps to be legal or get out.
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Good Idea.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I'm a little bit shocked at the responses in here making the assumption that cops in AZ are racists looking for an opportunity to wield their illegal author-i-tuh.
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Do you really think that even 5% of the people in Arizona who will be stopped and asked for documentation are going to be white Europeans who may be here illegally?

It's easy for you and me, as white people, to be like LAWL RACIAL PROFILING LAWL THIS IS JUST LIBERALS IN AN UPROAR when we can walk around and never be stopped for simply existing. I don't have a drivers license (don't drive), and I only ever carry my ID with me when I think I'm going to have to enter a bar. I never have to worry because I know I will never, ever, at any time, be asked if I am in the country legally. Why? Because my skin color gives me a free pass because I was 'lucky' to be born white. Documented immigrants who have paid their dues but are people of color are not afforded this luxury that you and I overlook on a daily, and perhaps by minute, basis.

Immigration is a very big topic in Arizona (obviously), and because it is such a forefront and IN YOUR FACE WHATUP issue it is going to be on the minds of law enforcement at all time. If there are two men outside a Home Depot, loitering as you put it (or maybe just homeless men looking for shelter from the weather like Safeway lets homeless or down on their luck people do here in Albany), and one looks eastern European and one looks Hispanic in Arizona, who do you think the cops are going to question? Who do you think the cops are going to find a way to ask for documentation?

It wont be the white guy they choose.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Sigh. I guess the reference to Europeans "discovering" America was lost on you. Big surprise. You're no Stephen Hawking, after all. But it's good to know you've got no problem with the children of illegal aliens born here. After all, they arrive legally.
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Sigh. You don't seem to understand the difference between settling a largely unpopulated country almost 400 years ago, and breaking through internationally recognized borders today. But then you're no Albert Einstein.
 
HCP said:
Now with this new law, my grandfather could easily be pulled over and questioned...... even though he proudly served his country in Korea! Don't like the idea of that at all.
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If I were living in another country legally, and hundreds of thousands of my fellow Americans were sneaking into that country and causing havoc with its laws and social welfare system, I would completely understand the need to stop Americans and determine if they were living there legally. I would proudly carry my I.D. card and gladly show it to any officer who stopped me. No problem at all.
 
Rastapopoulos said:
Actually, only people lucky enough actually to be born within the stadium are allowed to vote on who gets to come and see the game.
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Which also happens to be the case in every other stadium in the world. Yet somehow when the people in Arizona's stadium enforce said rule, they're awful people.

There's no good argument against the Arizona law.
 
BrianFromWA said:
I'm a little bit shocked at the responses in here making the assumption that cops in AZ are racists looking for an opportunity to wield their illegal author-i-tuh.
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Well, given my one interaction with AZ cops many many years ago I don't find the assumption shocking (of course I'm a white boy so I didn't suffer from any racism myself at the time).

barfo
 
Shooter said:
Sigh. You don't seem to understand the difference between settling a largely unpopulated country almost 400 years ago, and breaking through internationally recognized borders today. But then you're no Albert Einstein.
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Isn't the western US a largely unpopulated country now? I think you are just making excuses - our forefathers not only immigrated illegally, but they also got busy killing the locals. At least the immigrants today are not exterminating us white-folk in any great numbers.

barfo
 
So, you folks that are against this law in AZ....what to you tell the ranchers that are out working their fences, facing illegal aliens trespassing on their land while transporting drugs from Mexico? Just die?

Go Blazers
 
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