Outlaw Unexpendable?

[Da_O]

I would only trade Outlaw if we got a backup PF to take his place. No way do I want to see Frye getting rotation minutes.

 

[Blaze01]

What would we do without Zach Randolph?

How will this team compete w\o Rasheed Wallace?


Other players step up.....it frees more time for Webster, or Batum....and the assumption here is that Outlaw would likely only be dealt if another SF was coming back like a Caron Butler (MUCH better), Richard Jefferson (better), Marvin Williams (YES, he is better)....

 

[STOMP]

Well, it's been a while, but I thought Tell went to the hole a bit more than Nic does, but that could be attributed to confidence.

Of course Rooks have issues getting calls, but checking the stats Martell went to the line about twice as much per minute last year as much as Nic is this. Both get there hardly ever. I'd rate both as pretty bad at this.

is there anything else that Martell does as good or better then Batum?

STOMP

 

[MrJayremmie]

I want to keep Outlaw, and I made a promise during the NJ game when he hit that shot that if he made it i will always love him forever... so GO OUTLAW!

He also gives us a good option because he can play 2 positions off the bench, which helps our team cut the rotation down to 9 people, which is better imo.

 

[hasoos]

He's better than Maxiell, and I don't think he's "so good". I just don't think he's so terrible.

Maxiell sits on his ass for Detroit. What makes him effective in Portland that is worth giving up an unguardable offensive player?

I don't agree with you there. Maxiell is a beast. The thing you don't mention in Detroit is Michael Curry, the head coach. Who happens to be on a 4 game losing skid, and who is getting close to losing the team if he hasn't already. The thing is, Maxiell is in Curry's "Dog House". I have to imagine if you were playing well, starting, and the team re-signed McDyess and started giving him all your minutes when you had been producing pretty well, you would be pissed at your coach too. The sitting on the bench isn't due to his play. It's due to Michael Curry is not a good head coach.

 

[PapaG]

I don't agree with you there. Maxiell is a beast. The thing you don't mention in Detroit is Michael Curry, the head coach. Who happens to be on a 4 game losing skid, and who is getting close to losing the team if he hasn't already. The thing is, Maxiell is in Curry's "Dog House". I have to imagine if you were playing well, starting, and the team re-signed McDyess and started giving him all your minutes when you had been producing pretty well, you would be pissed at your coach too. The sitting on the bench isn't due to his play. It's due to Michael Curry is not a good head coach.

We disagree on Maxiell's effectiveness, as his numbers this year under Curry mirror his career averages under Flip Saunders, but Maxiell has also said that he is going to test the free agent market this summer as an RFA. Why trade for a guy who may be able to get a larger contract from another team in the off-season?

 

[Jayps15]

We disagree on Maxiell's effectiveness, as his numbers this year under Curry mirror his career averages under Flip Saunders, but Maxiell has also said that he is going to test the free agent market this summer as an RFA. Why trade for a guy who may be able to get a larger contract from another team in the off-season?

Maxiel signed an extension this offseason, he's under contract through the 2012/2013 season. I think it was for about the same as Martell's deal.

 

[PapaG]

Maxiel signed an extension this offseason, he's under contract through the 2012/2013 season. I think it was for about the same as Martell's deal.

My bad. I see that now. My info was from 10/18, and he signed the extension on 10/31. I still don't want him at this point.

 

[Ed O]

Who isn't an up-and-down-player outside of All-NBA players? Plus, Outlaw has been solid very good in this five game streak.

A lot of players off of the bench are capable of rebounding and playing good defense on a consistent basis. I don't think you really believe Outlaw has a normal amount of ups and downs for a non-starter. It seems to me he has a lot more variance in his play than most NBA players.

Again, there is way too much of a negative focus on a role player. I'm not saying you are being negative here, Ed, but I mean in general.

There's actually too much of a positive focus, IMO. Look at the title of this thread. What role player in the NBA is "unexpendable"?

Ed O.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

IMO, Travis has been so instrumental in the team's success this season that I would like to see the team head into the Playoffs with him aboard. Let's see what limitations or strengths will surface in a series.

Unless we're getting a huge upgrade at the small forward or point guard position, there's no way we're trading him.

 

[PapaG]

A lot of players off of the bench are capable of rebounding and playing good defense on a consistent basis. I don't think you really believe Outlaw has a normal amount of ups and downs for a non-starter. It seems to me he has a lot more variance in his play than most NBA players.

In my eyes, for a non-starter in the NBA, he has an abnormal amount of ups compared to downs, especially in the 4th quarter of close games.

There's actually too much of a positive focus, IMO. Look at the title of this thread. What role player in the NBA is "unexpendable"?

Ed O.

I don't think any player outside of LeBron James and Kobe Bryant are "unexpendable", so I was commenting more on the responses in the thread instead of the title. I posted last week that I would include Outlaw in the package for Hinrich/Deng if that is what it took to finalize a deal.

 

[hasoos]

Here is how I see it with Travis. There are some games where he is a matchup nightmare for certain teams and players. There are certain games where he is an easy cover for the opposition, because they have an athletic player who has scouted him. Last night was one of those games where he could look over at Peja and his eyes would light up. The main thing being, he is a piece that Nate can use against certain matchups to give Portland an advantage in the coaching chess match. That is why sometimes he has good games, and sometimes he does not.

 

[Natebishop3]

Of course Rooks have issues getting calls, but checking the stats Martell went to the line about twice as much per minute last year as much as Nic is this. Both get there hardly ever. I'd rate both as pretty bad at this.

is there anything else that Martell does as good or better then Batum?

STOMP

Martell shoots better on the move, I think.

 

[hasoos]

We disagree on Maxiell's effectiveness, as his numbers this year under Curry mirror his career averages under Flip Saunders, but Maxiell has also said that he is going to test the free agent market this summer as an RFA. Why trade for a guy who may be able to get a larger contract from another team in the off-season?

Just because the numbers match does not mean he is not better than before. It is a matter of watching Jason Maxiell over the years, and knowing if he has improved or not from what you see on the court. I have seen Jason Maxxiell play each of his years in the league, usually catching several pistons games a year on the tube. He is a much better player now than he was years ago. He is also what you need in a power forward. He is physical, athletic, shoots a very high percentage due to his work in the paint, he collects the garbage. His shooting percentage has increased every year he has been in the league. He has learned from some of the best in the league for defense.

IMO he is more like a Paul Milsap who has never got the benefit of the doubt from the coach.

 

[Natebishop3]

Just because the numbers match does not mean he is not better than before. It is a matter of watching Jason Maxiell over the years, and knowing if he has improved or not from what you see on the court. I have seen Jason Maxxiell play each of his years in the league, usually catching several pistons games a year on the tube. He is a much better player now than he was years ago. He is also what you need in a power forward. He is physical, athletic, shoots a very high percentage due to his work in the paint, he collects the garbage. His shooting percentage has increased every year he has been in the league. He has learned from some of the best in the league for defense.

IMO he is more like a Paul Milsap who has never got the benefit of the doubt from the coach.

Some people only watch boxscores, not actual games.

 

[PapaG]

Some people only watches boxscores, not actual games.

Some people are afraid of people disagreeing with them, so they post generic insults and block users.

I don't mind people disagreeing with me, so I am directing this to you, Nate. Flame away, big guy.

 

[PapaG]

Just because the numbers match does not mean he is not better than before. It is a matter of watching Jason Maxiell over the years, and knowing if he has improved or not from what you see on the court. I have seen Jason Maxxiell play each of his years in the league, usually catching several pistons games a year on the tube. He is a much better player now than he was years ago. He is also what you need in a power forward. He is physical, athletic, shoots a very high percentage due to his work in the paint, he collects the garbage. His shooting percentage has increased every year he has been in the league. He has learned from some of the best in the league for defense.

IMO he is more like a Paul Milsap who has never got the benefit of the doubt from the coach.

Fair enough, but he is still undersized and he still have a very limited game. I've also seen nothing close to the outside game that Milsap has from Maxiell, so I'm not sure that's a spot-on comparison.

 

[Iwatas]

I'd still leap at Trout+Raef for Vince Carter or Gerald Wallace (injured and all).

And Trout's recent play makes him more valuable, which is good!

iWatas

 

[PapaG]

I'd still leap at Trout+Raef for Vince Carter or Gerald Wallace (injured and all).

And Trout's recent play makes him more valuable, which is good!

iWatas

If VC really only has 2 years left on his contract with a 3rd year being a team option I'd likely now do that deal, and it's a definite yes for me on the latter.

 

[B-Roy]

I'd still leap at Trout+Raef for Vince Carter or Gerald Wallace (injured and all).

And Trout's recent play makes him more valuable, which is good!

iWatas

Me too, though I think Nets and Cats would want more.

 

[hasoos]

Fair enough, but he is still undersized and he still have a very limited game. I've also seen nothing close to the outside game that Milsap has from Maxiell, so I'm not sure that's a spot-on comparison.

I agree that Milsaps outside game has progressed. Probably a lot to do with having to back up Boozer, who gets a lot of mid range perimeter shots in the offense, so he needs to be able to knock those down. It is probably better than Maxiells.

 

[Minstrel]

Outlaw is expendable, to me, in a package deal to get a young star/near-star small forward or point guard. Or in a straight-up deal for a good backup power forward of similar talent.

Otherwise, he's a great luxury to have. He's too variable to be a good starter on a championship-level team, but he makes a premium bench offensive weapon. Being able to deploy scorers as good as Outlaw and Rudy off the bench (this is assuming Bayless eventually is a starter), along with solid veterans like Blake and Przybilla, is a pretty great situation in combination with a very talented starting unit.

Blake, Rudy, Webster, Outlaw and Przybilla would be a unit that could compete with the starting units of some of the worse NBA teams. That's pretty nice off the bench.

 

[STOMP]

Martell shoots better on the move, I think.

From what I've seen, dude gets stripped when he puts it on the floor which is probably why he hardly does anything off the dribble. I also think it's the consensus opinion that Nic is easily the superior defender. Anyway, I guess I'm asking more about things we can statistically track.

Batum's rookie year per minute stats at age 20 are better or at least equal to Martell's in his 3rd year at age 21 in Rbs, Assts, TO's, Stls, and Blks. Their shooting percentages are about equal. Martell did shoot a lot more which gave him the lead in scoring.

For the same reasons why I predicted Travis would get the start over Nic at the beginning of the year, I expect coach Nate to give Martell some real minutes when he comes back. He likes to throw the vet a bone and get him mentally back in the mix. But dudes got his work cut out for him keeping a role. I think both of the other guys offer coach Nate more If MW continues on the same production plateau he's been on, he'll probably be squeezed out of the rotation by seasons end.

STOMP

STOMP

 

[Natebishop3]

From what I've seen, dude gets stripped when he puts it on the floor which is probably why he hardly does anything off the dribble. I also think it's the consensus opinion that Nic is easily the superior defender. Anyway, I guess I'm asking more about things we can statistically track.

Batum's rookie year per minute stats at age 20 are better or at least equal to Martell's in his 3rd year at age 21 in Rbs, Assts, TO's, Stls, and Blks. Their shooting percentages are about equal. Martell did shoot a lot more which gave him the lead in scoring.

For the same reasons why I predicted Travis would get the start over Nic at the beginning of the year, I expect coach Nate to give Martell some real minutes when he comes back. He likes to throw the vet a bone and get him mentally back in the mix. But dudes got his work cut out for him keeping a role. I think both of the other guys offer coach Nate more If MW continues on the same production plateau he's been on, he'll probably be squeezed out of the rotation by seasons end.

STOMP

STOMP

Yeah, you're right, what I was trying to say is that Tell runs off screens and such more than Nic, but I see what you're saying.

 

[hasoos]

From what I've seen, dude gets stripped when he puts it on the floor which is probably why he hardly does anything off the dribble. I also think it's the consensus opinion that Nic is easily the superior defender. Anyway, I guess I'm asking more about things we can statistically track.

Batum's rookie year per minute stats at age 20 are better or at least equal to Martell's in his 3rd year at age 21 in Rbs, Assts, TO's, Stls, and Blks. Their shooting percentages are about equal. Martell did shoot a lot more which gave him the lead in scoring.

For the same reasons why I predicted Travis would get the start over Nic at the beginning of the year, I expect coach Nate to give Martell some real minutes when he comes back. He likes to throw the vet a bone and get him mentally back in the mix. But dudes got his work cut out for him keeping a role. I think both of the other guys offer coach Nate more If MW continues on the same production plateau he's been on, he'll probably be squeezed out of the rotation by seasons end.

STOMP

STOMP

At the same time, in pre season Martell really had shown he had added to his game, and that included putting the ball on the floor, and using that speed for first step moves. I know he didn't play long before he was injured, but I can guarantee you that the give and go play on the baseline was designed with Martell in mind. It is still in the offense, although they rarely hand it off to whoever is cutting, because few players have the speed to pull it off. Last I looked Martell was the fastest guy on the team still. Team speed is a good thing.

 

[Natebishop3]

At the same time, in pre season Martell really had shown he had added to his game, and that included putting the ball on the floor, and using that speed for first step moves. I know he didn't play long before he was injured, but I can guarantee you that the give and go play on the baseline was designed with Martell in mind. It is still in the offense, although they rarely hand it off to whoever is cutting, because few players have the speed to pull it off. Last I looked Martell was the fastest guy on the team still. Team speed is a good thing.

You're right, I remember how excited I was about Marty in that first preseason game, only to be let down the next day with his injury. Sad times.

 

[hasoos]

You're right, I remember how excited I was about Marty in that first preseason game, only to be let down the next day with his injury. Sad times.

Yes the other thing I was really happy about in pre season was Martell and Rudy seemed to have some chemistry. Martell caught several alleyoops from Rudy.

 

[Natebishop3]

Yes the other thing I was really happy about in pre season was Martell and Rudy seemed to have some chemistry. Martell caught several alleyoops from Rudy.

I know. Those two looked great together. That was, by far, the most highlights Rudy has had in one game. I'm curious to see if they could do it again.

 

[Minstrel]

STOMP

STOMP

Wow, a double-STOMP. Never seen that before.

Just when you think long-term members have put it on cruise control, aren't going to innovate anymore and just do what works....they surprise you.

 

[Natebishop3]

Wow, a double-STOMP. Never seen that before.

Just when you think long-term members have put it on cruise control, aren't going to innovate anymore and just do what works....they surprise you.

Haha