Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant

[Denny Crane]

I don't think that I stated my personal opinion anywhere in that post. Don't try to paint the picture that people are naive and don't understand the reality of teenagers getting pregnant just because you disagree with my point. Besides that was wasn't even my point. My point was simply that if she had chosen a controversial route (abortion) that the media would not be treating this as a family issue.

Since it came up, my personal opinion is pro-life. I don't think that pregnancy ruining someone's life is an argument for abortion for many reasons.

1. Why should teen sex be any different than any other teen decision that could potentially ruin someone's life? There isn't an undo button for any other aspect of life.

2. I do agree that abortion should exist as an option in cases of rape and incest.

3. Who is to say that it is guaranteed that abortion will ruin someone's life? Who are we to define what "ruined" means? I find that opinion to be self-righteous as there are many people in foreign countries who have multiple unplanned children due to lack of birth control. Are there lives ruined? Not by their standards, and really that is what matters. In fact many of those who lead simple lives may be more "happy" than we are as Americans. Really it comes down to the fact that we do not have the right to impose the "American dream" on others, even those within our country.

The thing that makes the least sense about your post is that you state that your own wife was pregnant at 17 and got straight A's her senior year. So obviously it is possible to be a success as a pregnant teen, yet you argue that abortion should be an option because of the potential to ruin a teen's life?

I argue simply that the woman has a right to her body, and for any reason she sees fit, she has the right to rule over what her body is used for.

 

[Dumpy]

What are her positions on energy? Energy happens to be one of the biggest issues we face, right?

yes, you have identified the single area that she has some experience--and knowledge--in. However, this just happens to be one area where McCain has a pretty strident viewpoint, and he is unlikely to accept any cousel from her on it. It is also not something she can go off and work on by herself. Thus, I find it irrelevant.

 

[Denny Crane]

yes, you have identified the single area that she has some experience--and knowledge--in. However, this just happens to be one area where McCain has a pretty strident viewpoint, and he is unlikely to accept any cousel from her on it. It is also not something she can go off and work on by herself. Thus, I find it irrelevant.

The issue with Palin, for me, has to do with whether she could possibly fill ANY role in national office other than shaking hands--and I have yet to see any evidence that she can.

ANY is resolved.

 

[Jurassic]

I argue simply that the woman has a right to her body, and for any reason she sees fit, she has the right to rule over what her body is used for.

Not to be overly cliche but it takes two to tango correct? I once knew a guy who got a girl pregnant and wanted to keep the kid, she chose to have an abortion. Is that her right simply because its her body? By your logic is it right for a woman to trap a wealthy man into paying child support for 18 years by choosing not to abort when he wants her to?

As Obama said in his speech at the DNC it is important to make efforts to strengthen the family and prevent unwanted pregnancies. Left or right we can all agree on that. But to say that its a womans body and she can use it for whatever she sees fit undermines the role of a father in pregnancy in my opinion.

 

[huevonkiller]

Not to be overly cliche but it takes two to tango correct? I once knew a guy who got a girl pregnant and wanted to keep the kid, she chose to have an abortion. Is that her right simply because its her body? By your logic is it right for a woman to trap a wealthy man into paying child support for 18 years by choosing not to abort when he wants her to?

As Obama said in his speech at the DNC it is important to make efforts to strengthen the family and prevent unwanted pregnancies. Left or right we can all agree on that. But to say that its a womans body and she can use it for whatever she sees fit undermines the role of a father in pregnancy in my opinion.

The baby is growing inside of the mother, the father's role hasn't begun yet.

Pretty tough subject of course...

 

[Jurassic]

The baby is growing inside of the mother, the father's role hasn't begun yet.

I disagree with that 100%.

If a pregnant mother and the father were not on the best terms and it ended up an issue in court, 99% of judges would require the "father who's role hasn't begun yet" to help with the medical bills, correct?

 

[Denny Crane]

Not to be overly cliche but it takes two to tango correct? I once knew a guy who got a girl pregnant and wanted to keep the kid, she chose to have an abortion. Is that her right simply because its her body? By your logic is it right for a woman to trap a wealthy man into paying child support for 18 years by choosing not to abort when he wants her to?

Yes, it's her right to her body under any circumstance. The courts decide what the courts decide when it comes to child support, and the law is well established. Not saying I agree with it.

When abortions were illegal in most places, women took coat hangers to themselves. That says a lot about the lengths they were willing to go to maintain control over their own bodies. If you don't understand why they did those things, then maybe you should consider the reasons.

As Obama said in his speech at the DNC it is important to make efforts to strengthen the family and prevent unwanted pregnancies. Left or right we can all agree on that. But to say that its a womans body and she can use it for whatever she sees fit undermines the role of a father in pregnancy in my opinion.

I'd prefer there were zero abortions, but I'm also a realist. If the guy wants to carry a baby to term in his body, that'd be his choice.

 

[huevonkiller]

I disagree with that 100%.

If a pregnant mother and the father were not on the best terms and it ended up an issue in court, 99% of judges would require the "father who's role hasn't begun yet" to help with the medical bills, correct?

I don't really care what the legal ruling is to be honest.

And what if you pay some money for medical bills? The being is not inside you, that's the ultimate point for me.

 

[cpawfan]

I disagree with that 100%.

If a pregnant mother and the father were not on the best terms and it ended up an issue in court, 99% of judges would require the "father who's role hasn't begun yet" to help with the medical bills, correct?

Financial responsibility is quite different than suffering physical trauma. The male experiences no standard physical hardships to his body as the result of a pregnancy.

 

[Jurassic]

When abortions were illegal in most places, women took coat hangers to themselves. That says a lot about the lengths they were willing to go to maintain control over their own bodies. If you don't understand why they did those things, then maybe you should consider the reasons.

I don't think that the motivation was to "maintain control over their bodies", you said you are a realist. Why is it that anytime someone disagrees with you it's because "they don't understand" lol?

This isn't a personally close subject to me as I don't plan on having kids until I am married and am waiting until marriage to have sex, and obviously have never gotten a woman pregnant. The reason I bring up the legalities is because they completely contradict the moral logic behind abortion. To say that its a woman's right to choose does not make sense when God gave procreative power to man and woman. It doesn't make sense that the man basically stands outside while the woman makes a decision, and then he either ends up paying for the child or losing it regardless of how he feels.

Until women are asexual I will always feel this way. I feel that too many use it as a cop out, an excuse to avoid the irresponsibility of something that they have gotten themselves into.

I'd prefer there were zero abortions, but I'm also a realist. If the guy wants to carry a baby to term in his body, that'd be his choice.

I would too, abortion is murder.

 

[Denny Crane]

I don't think that the motivation was to "maintain control over their bodies", you said you are a realist. Why is it that anytime someone disagrees with you it's because "they don't understand" lol?

I'm not a woman, but at least I do try to understand the motivation behind going to such an extreme measure. It's sure to kill the fetus, but it's also the woman risking her own health and safety to get rid of it. The WHY is hugely important.

This isn't a personally close subject to me as I don't plan on having kids until I am married and am waiting until marriage to have sex, and obviously have never gotten a woman pregnant. The reason I bring up the legalities is because they completely contradict the moral logic behind abortion. To say that its a woman's right to choose does not make sense when God gave procreative power to man and woman. It doesn't make sense that the man basically stands outside while the woman makes a decision, and then he either ends up paying for the child or losing it regardless of how he feels.

Until women are asexual I will always feel this way. I feel that too many use it as a cop out, an excuse to avoid the irresponsibility of something that they have gotten themselves into.

I would too, abortion is murder.

Taking of human life is valid in a number of circumstances, and this is one. Another is a soldier killing an enemy soldier. Another is self-defense (which this is). Another is the death penalty.

 

[huevonkiller]

I don't think that the motivation was to "maintain control over their bodies", you said you are a realist. Why is it that anytime someone disagrees with you it's because "they don't understand" lol?

This isn't a personally close subject to me as I don't plan on having kids until I am married and am waiting until marriage to have sex, and obviously have never gotten a woman pregnant. The reason I bring up the legalities is because they completely contradict the moral logic behind abortion. To say that its a woman's right to choose does not make sense when God gave procreative power to man and woman. It doesn't make sense that the man basically stands outside while the woman makes a decision, and then he either ends up paying for the child or losing it regardless of how he feels.

Until women are asexual I will always feel this way. I feel that too many use it as a cop out, an excuse to avoid the irresponsibility of something that they have gotten themselves into.

God didn't split this procreative power right down the middle.

I would too, abortion is murder.

Well there is also that other long debate about when life starts. I happen to think Abortion is euthanasia.

 

[Jurassic]

Financial responsibility is quite different than suffering physical trauma. The male experiences no standard physical hardships to his body as the result of a pregnancy.

That point is irrelevant, his argument was that the father's role has not begun yet. Even after that baby is born the male's body still does not experience physical trauma, so what is your point?

 

[Dumpy]

I think abortion should be compulsory.

 

[huevonkiller]

That point is irrelevant, his argument was that the father's role has not begun yet. Even after that baby is born the male's body still does not experience physical trauma, so what is your point?

No that's not my point. I'm not bound by legalities.

 

[Denny Crane]

The Law isn't logical, and never is. Once you get over that basic fundamental fact, then it starts to make sense

 

[Denny Crane]

I think abortion should be compulsory.

It is in China. It's just as bad to force a woman to have one than to deny her the right to one.

 

[Jurassic]

No that's not my point. I'm not bound by legalities.

I was talking about post #35. Anyway, we can all agree to disagree, I like hearing other people's viewpoints even though there are some issues I refuse to compromise on.

 

[cpawfan]

That point is irrelevant, his argument was that the father's role has not begun yet. Even after that baby is born the male's body still does not experience physical trauma, so what is your point?

What does after the baby is born have to do with anything?

The father has no role in the physical development of a fertilized egg

 

[Jurassic]

What does after the baby is born have to do with anything?

The father has no role in the physical development of a fertilized egg

Noooooooo.

My response was directed at both you and huevonkiller. I was saying that I don't agree with belief that the father's role does not start simply because his body doesn't go through physical trauma. If the father's role doesn't start for that reason, then it would never start because his body really never changes.

I would be interested to hear a female perspective, are any of you female? I think that most females get pregnant and take the stance of "we are in this together" with the father. I don't think that most of them think, "this is my body I can do what I want, screw you". I actually think that most women would say that the role of the father begins at coception, none of them want to be in that boat alone. Especially among women who are pregnant for the first time. Yet it seems that many here think otherwise, which is fine.

 

[huevonkiller]

Noooooooo.

My response was directed at both you and huevonkiller. I was saying that I don't agree with belief that the father's role does not start simply because his body doesn't go through physical trauma. If the father's role doesn't start for that reason, then it would never start because his body really never changes.

I would be interested to hear a female perspective, are any of you female? I think that most females get pregnant and take the stance of "we are in this together" with the father. I don't think that most of them think, "this is my body I can do what I want, screw you". I actually think that most women would say that the role of the father begins at coception, none of them want to be in that boat alone. Especially among women who are pregnant for the first time. Yet it seems that many here think otherwise, which is fine.

The father and mother appear to be on quite equal terms after the baby is born. The mother is no longer carrying that potential burden.

 

[Denny Crane]

Noooooooo.

My response was directed at both you and huevonkiller. I was saying that I don't agree with belief that the father's role does not start simply because his body doesn't go through physical trauma. If the father's role doesn't start for that reason, then it would never start because his body really never changes.

I would be interested to hear a female perspective, are any of you female? I think that most females get pregnant and take the stance of "we are in this together" with the father. I don't think that most of them think, "this is my body I can do what I want, screw you". I actually think that most women would say that the role of the father begins at coception, none of them want to be in that boat alone. Especially among women who are pregnant for the first time. Yet it seems that many here think otherwise, which is fine.

Start with the premise that women are human beings and only differ from you in gender. Generally what you do and think isn't a lot different from what they do and think. They fart, they swear, they like sex, they have ambitions.

 

[Jurassic]

The father and mother appear to be on quite equal terms after the baby is born. The mother is no longer carrying that potential burden.

Right, and that was my point.

Start with the premise that women are human beings and only differ from you in gender. Generally what you do and think isn't a lot different from what they do and think. They fart, they swear, they like sex, they have ambitions.

Unbelievable. I'm confused by the need for that subtle attack, I'm not sexist in the least. It's not naive or sexist on my part to think that women might have a different perspective on this issue. Since after all, we acknowledge that they are the ones carrying the child.

 

[Denny Crane]

Right, and that was my point.



Unbelievable. I'm confused by the need for that subtle attack, I'm not sexist in the least. It's not naive or sexist on my part to think that women might have a different perspective on this issue. Since after all, we acknowledge that they are the ones carrying the child.

It was no subtle attack. Men do have a difficult time understanding women. I admit when I was younger, I understood them a lot less

 

[huevonkiller]

Right, and that was my point.

Oh well sorry for not being clear. My view is that I have no idea why women would think in general that they are "in this together" with the father. It depends on so many factors, I wouldn't want to just assume something like that.

Just take a look at the growing liberal movement in the younger generations.

 

[cpawfan]

Noooooooo.

My response was directed at both you and huevonkiller. I was saying that I don't agree with belief that the father's role does not start simply because his body doesn't go through physical trauma. If the father's role doesn't start for that reason, then it would never start because his body really never changes.

There is a huge difference between role and ability to assert influence and that is what I'm talking about. It is the woman's body that goes through pain and suffering. They and they alone have final say on the decision to carry out a pregnancy.

I would be interested to hear a female perspective, are any of you female? I think that most females get pregnant and take the stance of "we are in this together" with the father. I don't think that most of them think, "this is my body I can do what I want, screw you". I actually think that most women would say that the role of the father begins at coception, none of them want to be in that boat alone. Especially among women who are pregnant for the first time. Yet it seems that many here think otherwise, which is fine.

I have female friends and family members that have made decisions to both keep and abort pregnancies that were formed out of wedlock and out of a serious relationship. For each of them, it was specific to their unique circumstances. Every single one of them that I've talked to told me that it was their body and their final decision.

 

[DennisRodman]

Abortion should be allowed within the first 36 months after insemination.

 

[Jurassic]

Abortion should be allowed within the first 36 months after insemination.

Are you suggesting that we legalize abortion for anyone under 3 years of age?! JK, I think you mistyped what you meant, or you were joking.

That brings up an interesting point though. I once did a report on the effects of late abortion, they are horrible. As additional tissues form in the breasts (for the purpose of milk) if an abortion takes place the chances of them resulting in breast cancer GREATLY increases. I don't think that anyone thinks that a woman should wait until late in the pregnancy to have an abortion. Of course there are exceptions guys, I know, so lets skip that debate, lol.

 

[Master Shake]

 

[Dumpy]

Are you suggesting that we legalize abortion for anyone under 3 years of age?! JK, I think you mistyped what you meant, or you were joking.

That brings up an interesting point though. I once did a report on the effects of late abortion, they are horrible. As additional tissues form in the breasts (for the purpose of milk) if an abortion takes place the chances of them resulting in breast cancer GREATLY increases. I don't think that anyone thinks that a woman should wait until late in the pregnancy to have an abortion. Of course there are exceptions guys, I know, so lets skip that debate, lol.

I once asked my wife's OB/GYN how to potty-train a 36-month-old fetus.