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Hey I found Craig's answer to free will. Wanna read it?



There is more, but I took out a little just to give his interpretation to Omnipotent.

In this example, God may be omnipotent, but he lacks both timelessness and omniscience. If he creates humans and sets them loose to do what they will, without knowing their eventual choices and eternal fate, he doesn't actually know all things at all times.
 
I hold a high respect for you and Denny in these debates. I see you, like Denny wanting to seek truth and believe in the "purism" of science. And I embrace that as well. But remember that this was a response to one poster; maybe a couple others that have a certain arrogance in these threads. Don't think I am generalizing the entire flock. Just like I wouldn't generalize the entire flock of Christians.

Equating "knowledgeable" with "arrogance" is the defense mechanism of an unsure mind. I don't take it personally and I hope you don't take it personally when I try to drag you into the 20th century by telling you there is no god.

I wouldn't bother if I thought you weren't worth it. :devilwink:

As for believers in mythical super-beings lacking sophistication I would think that's pretty obvious, but it's no big deal. Just a word that has been twisted from it's original meaning to become more of an insult than a compliment.
 
Hey I found Craig's answer to free will. Wanna read it?

Take assumption (1). If free will is possible then it’s false that an omnipotent God can create just any world that he desires. God’s being omnipotent does not imply that he can do logical impossibilities (such as, make a round square or a married bachelor). But it is logically impossible to make someone freely choose to do something. Thus if God grants people genuine freedom, to choose as they like, then it’s impossible for him to determine what their choices will be. All he can do is create the circumstances, in which a person is able to make a free choice, and then - so to speak - “stand back” and let him make that choice.

There is more, but I took out a little just to give his interpretation to Omnipotent.

Free will cannot exist in concert with coercion.

Threat of damnation and hellfire vs life in heaven, 72 virgins...is about as coercive as one can be.

Nobody who believes in god(s) has free will.
 
Trip I think I got the answer... I was thinking about this for a while; and it was a very very good question. Props to you on that, btw.

Okay so this is the question I think you are trying to say:

1.) God is "all knowing"

2.) You cannot know all, if you give free will.

3.) Therefor God did not give us "free will"

So this got really confusing until I actually wrote this out and solved each problem separately.

To answer 1.) It could be possible that since God created the universe; his very essence is outside the realm of the universe. Basically he is not bound by the laws of physics or science in the Universe. Therefor time, gravity, mass, etc. aren't binding. So if you look at this metaphorically; picture the universe under "his microscope" a grand microscope that can see all, know all from beginning to end. That would mean he is "all knowing".

To answer 2.) The universe is bound to all the scientific laws and standards. Gravity, light, space and time cannot be changed. An apple is still an apple and can't be a giraffe. That wouldn't make sense. So in this "petri dish" called the universe; must abide to all logical laws, right?

To answer 3.) Well if God allows life to exist in this universe; then free will must be given. You cannot bend these laws in this dish. Therefor, God gave us free will.

So basically; his choice to give us life on this universe means that he just put us in this petri dish. And he can see all because he is still outside this boundary outside the "universe". This can also explain why Angels don't have free will. They exist outside the universe in his realm and because he is all-knowing, it is impossible for them to have a "free-will".

I hope this explains it. I think it makes a lot of sense. I would like a physicist like you to break this down and tell me is this possible, or will I need to go back to the drawing board. :D
 
And wait now unlocking this just unlocked so many other mysteries I have too.

1.) If God cast out the Devil from Heaven and bound him to the Universe; then he too is bound to the laws of the Universe. That would explain that he doesn't know the future and will not know when the Rapture comes.

2.) Also, the travesty on this planet like the slaughters in the name of God; was the "free will" of his people. Saying take back your land and purify it; doesn't mean kill everyone in sight. It just means take back the land. The people chose how they do it.

3.) Evil on this planet is caused because we choose to be evil. We have the free-will to kill millions and God cannot interfere.

4.) And the reason there is the "trinity" is there still needs to be connection with God; so he implants a spirit to have communication with us; therefor we have God in us. This is also the reason Jesus is God in the flesh. It's basically God coming to Earth and limited to the laws of our universe.

5.) This is also an explanation of "imperfection" because once again, the universe is bound by the laws of the universe. So sin can exist, even if God exists. The moral argument would be met.

And to go even further. God is perfect; but no matter how much power he has; he must abide by the laws of the universe so he cannot control moral imperfection on this universe. Maybe because he loves us soooo much; he actually came down and died for ALL SINS; to bear ALL PAIN; with everyone of us in mind! That means all the genocide, rape whatever was put on his perfect being, so he too can bear our weight and pay for this imperfection with his own pure blood.
 
So basically; his choice to give us life on this universe means that he just put us in this petri dish. And he can see all because he is still outside this boundary outside the "universe". This can also explain why Angels don't have free will. They exist outside the universe in his realm and because he is all-knowing, it is impossible for them to have a "free-will".


if god knows what my choices will be (looking from "outside" at block spacetime or whatever) then my choices are already determined before i make them. if my choices are already determined how can i have free will?
 
There's a difference between knowing the decisions you make and choosing the decisions you make. God is Almighty, if He chooses to make a world He's sovereign over and also wants to give you the ability to choose and have free will then He can and He has. God did not create robots, the way God made us is the only way we'll ever know true genuine love.
 
There's a difference between knowing the decisions you make and choosing the decisions you make.


not the point. if i have free will god shouldn't be able to know what i will do before i do it from any perspective. free will is not compatable with (total) omniscience.
 
if god knows what my choices will be (looking from "outside" at block spacetime or whatever) then my choices are already determined before i make them. if my choices are already determined how can i have free will?

No that's not right. And scientifically you can metaphorically use it like a microscope. You can know what bacteria will do in the petri dish, you can add things to promote behavior, but you will have no control over the bacteria. Even knowing what they do, knowing what they will do before you put them there and being able to observe them 3 dimensionally; can explain all knowing.
 
not the point. if i have free will god shouldn't be able to know what i will do before i do it from any perspective. free will is not compatable with (total) omniscience.

God can't do it because I said so. That's what I read.
 
then try reading it as a logical argument. how can my choices be determinable before i make them if i have free will? it's a logical contradiction.

Because God doesn't decide what you do even if He knows what you will do. There are a lot of things God can do that don't make sense to us. You have every opportunity to repent and accept Jesus as your savior but you choose not to. Is that God's fault?
 
No that's not right. And scientifically you can metaphorically use it like a microscope. You can know what bacteria will do in the petri dish, you can add things to promote behavior, but you will have no control over the bacteria. Even knowing what they do, knowing what they will do before you put them there and being able to observe them 3 dimensionally; can explain all knowing.


if god knows my choices before i make them then my choices are fixed before i make them. if my choices are fixed before i make them in what sense do i have free will?
 
Because God doesn't decide what you do even if He knows what you will do. There are a lot of things God can do that don't make sense to us.

ahhh god overcomes logical contradictions by magic! how neat.

You have every opportunity to repent and accept Jesus as your savior but you choose not to.

false. i'm incapable of genuine belief in something i have no reason to suspect is true. i don't have the choice to accept jesus any more than you have the choice to believe the sun revolves around the earth.
 
ahhh god overcomes logical contradictions by magic! how neat.



false. i'm incapable of genuine belief in something i have no reason to suspect is true. i don't have the choice to accept jesus any more than you have the choice to believe the sun revolves around the earth.

Your decision bro
 
if god knows my choices before i make them then my choices are fixed before i make them. if my choices are fixed before i make them in what sense do i have free will?

Once you are in the universe you are according to my theory.
 
Let's expand this a little further. Let's say god created man, then woman. Okay the moment man was made, then all actions that take place in this universe are his free will. That's very easy. If you don't have control, you have free will. Doesn't matter if you already know what's going to happen, you still have no control.
 
I'm not saying I'm right. I am trying to explain it philosophically. And like you've said hundreds of posts before. Theory doesn't have to be right. It just has to be reasonable. So wouldn't this be reasonable?
 
You do know what reasonable means?
 
Here is the exact debate in which dr Craig tackles the question of free will. I understand mine better, this makes sense as well.

Issue 3: The Nature of Free Will

Hasker argues that in order to avoid theological fatalism, the Ockhamist must claim that one has the power to bring about the past, worse than that, the "power to bring about past events that have not occurred."10 Hasker is willing to concede for the sake of argument the power to bring about actual past events, but "What needs to be explained, but has not been explained, is how it is possible that God has always believed a certain thing, and yet it is in someone's power to bring it about that God has not always believed that thing."11 Hasker thinks the Ockhamist must hold that S has the power to bring it about that whereas it was true at t1 that God had always believed p, it was no longer true at t2 that God had always believed p. Thus, S must have the power to eliminate the past fact of God's believing p, which is the power to alter the past, an evident absurdity.

Hasker recognizes that Ockhamists protest that they assert no such power, and this fact, which bewilders him, leads Hasker to infer that Ockhamists have a different concept of power and freedom than the standard libertarian analysis. When Hasker speaks of power,

The power in question is the power to perform a particular act under given circumstances, and not a generalized power to perform acts of a certain kind. . . . In general, if it is in N's power at T to perform A, then there is nothing in the circumstances18 that obtain at T which prevents or precludes N's performing A at T.
----------
18 It will be recalled that the circumstances that obtain at T comprise all and only the hard facts with respect to T.12

In this sense of power, one does not have it within his power to act differently than God foreknows one will. In a different sense of power, in the sense of general abilities, "I may perfectly well have a power . . . to do something even though it is either logically or causally impossible that I exercise the power under the circumstances that obtain at a particular time."13 But the problem with this sense of power, he argues, is that it is insufficient for libertarian free will. In this sense of power,

. . . Peter can have the power to refrain from sinning even though it is logically impossible that he should exercise that power under the existing circumstances. But if one has the 'power to do otherwise' only in that sense--the sense in which having the power does not guarantee that it is possible for the power to be used--then the central idea of libertarianism . . . has been lost. Once again, we see that the compatibilist on foreknowledge cannot consistently affirm libertarian free will.14

It is remarkable how clearly the echoes of Richard Taylor's fatalism resound through these passages.15 Hasker's analysis of the notion of "within one's power"--which Taylor complained his critics never understood--is virtually the same as Taylor's and is thus infected with the same deficiencies.

The best way to get at this problem is by drawing some helpful distinctions which were well-known to medieval discussants of these issues. Foremost is the distinction between the sensus compositus and the sensus divisus of a proposition. Hasker's failure to differentiate these senses leads him into muddles. For example, consider the problem of the unchangeability of the past and future. Hasker tries to explain that the unchangeability of the past is not a mere tautology and the changeability of the future not a self-contradiction because the past is a concrete totality which is, while the future is a realm of mere possibilities.16 This affirmation of an A-theory of time does not, however, bring any clarity to the logical issues raised. Utilizing the medieval distinction between the senses, however, consider the proposition

2. A future event can fail to occur.

In sensu diviso, (2) means

3. Possibly, an event, which is future, will fail to occur

and is true if the event is contingent. But taken in sensu composito, (2) means

4. Possibly, an event which is future will fail to occur,

which is necessarily false. Thus, what is at issue with regard to the misleading notion of "altering the future" is whether one has the power to prevent a future event in sensu diviso. One can prevent the event, but were one to do so, then the event would not be future. To say that one cannot prevent a future event in sensu composito is merely to assert that one cannot bring it about that the event both will and will not occur--hardly a restriction on human freedom! Now consider

5. A past event can have failed to occur.

In sensu composito, (5) means

6. Possibly, an event which is past has failed to occur,

which is a self-contradiction. In sensu diviso, (5) means

7. Possibly, an event, which is past, has failed to occur.

It is clearly this latter sense that is at issue when Hasker raises the question concerning the "power to bring about past events that have not occurred"--otherwise, this phrase would be as self-contradictory as "square circles." The so-called unalterability of the past in sensu composito amounts to nothing more than the logical impossibility of bringing it about that an event has both occurred and not occurred. This trivial sense is irrelevant to considerations of power and freedom. The really interesting question is whether we have it within our power to postvent a past event in sensu diviso. In such a case one can bring it about that an event, which is past, did not occur, but were one to do so, then it would not have been a past event.

In so far as such postvention of the past relies upon retro-causation, we may certainly agree with Hasker that considerations of time and objective becoming rule out causal postvention of the past. But Hasker seems to have forgotten that the "bringing about" relation is non-causal. In this weak sense of "bring about," we do according to (PEP5), have power over the past, for as Freddoso has shown, we bring about the past truth of future-tense propositions by bringing about the truth of present-tense propositions which entail them.17 It was Taylor's failure to discern this power over the past in sensu diviso that proved fatal to his fatalism.

But is there not a similar fatal fallacy in theological fatalism? Consider

8. An event foreknown by God can fail to occur.

In sensu composito, this means

9. Possibly, an event which is foreknown by God will fail to occur,

which is self-contradictory. But in sensu diviso, (8) means

10. Possibly, an event, which is foreknown by God, will fail to occur,

which may be true. Thus, my ability to prevent the event is not the ability the bring about the self-contradictory state of affairs that God foreknew the event and the event does not occur. It is the power to prevent the event, which is foreknown by God, and were I to do so, it would not have been foreknown by Him.

On the assumption of (PEP5), the above implies that one has it within one's power to bring it about that the past should be different than it is, in that one can bring it about that God should have different beliefs than He has. This is not the power to alter or eliminate past events in sensu composito, which is absurd, but the power to bring it about that the past would have been different. For by acting differently now, one brings about the truth of different present-tense propositions and indirectly the past truth of different future-tense propositions. Since God is essentially omniscient, one thereby indirectly brings it about that He believed different propositions than He does. What is objectionable about that?

Hasker would reply that it is not within my power under the circumstances to act differently now. But the fallacy in in this reply may be seen by means of a second distinction, closely related to the first, which the medievals discerned, that between necessitas consequentiae and necessitas consequentis or the necessity of a hypothetical inference versus the necessity of the consequent of the hypothetical. Thus the proposition

11. If God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter cannot refrain from sinning,

properly understood, means

12. Necessarily, if God foreknew Peter would sin, then Peter does not refrain from sinning.

Hasker is misled by (11) into asserting a necessitas consequentis which he interprets as a abridgement of Peter's personal power. But what is impossible is not Peter's refraining from sin, but the composite state of affairs of God's foreknowledge of Peter's sin and Peter's refraining. That is to say, the proposition

13. Peter can refrain from the sin which God foreknew he would commit

is false in sensu composito, but true in sensu diviso.

Of course, (13)'s truth in sensu diviso implies that a backtracking counterfactual is in order here, in that since the composite state of affairs is impossible, Peter's power to refrain implies that were he to refrain, the circumstances (God's foreknowledge) would have been different. Such a counterfactual is justified since there are no possible worlds in which God errs. Of course, Hasker will insist, as the footnote in the above citation reminds us, that the circumstances he is talking about involve exclusively hard facts so that while the Ockhamist solution works for logical fatalism, it fails for theological fatalism. But such a reply only throws us back to the question of whether God's past belief is a hard fact, and we have seen that Hasker's inadequate analysis of that notion failed to provide any convincing argument against the Ockhamist position.

In short, the Ockhamist does not at all operate with a non-libertarian understanding of power or freedom. Once the proper distinctions are drawn, we see that Hasker has in no wise shown that one does not have the power to bring it about that God should have believed differently than He did.

II. Middle Knowledge

The doctrine of middle knowledge plays a foundational role in discussions of divine prescience, providence, and predestination. But Hasker lodges four objections against the doctrine of middle knowledge:18 (i) What, if anything, is the ground of the truth of counterfactuals of freedom? (ii) Crucial counterfactuals of freedom, if true at all, are necessarily true, which is incoherent. (iii) Counterfactuals of freedom cannot guide God's creation of the world because it is only by deciding which world to create that God settles which world is actual and therefore which counterfactuals are true. (iv) Either the truth of counterfactuals of freedom is brought about by the relevant agent or not. But it cannot be brought about by the agent; and if it cannot be brought about by the agent, then the agent's freedom is obviated. Therefore, there are no true counterfactuals of freedom. Let us consider then each of these objections.



Read more: http://173.199.151.173/rfapp/schola...ker-on-divine-knowledge.php#top#ixzz1kDb6IML0
 
He didn't get it.

Reason and Faith are completely incompatible.

Actually I did, but you can think my description of creation is like the same as knowing what matter or physics outside the realm of the universe are like the farthest north to south; then I can see why you posted what you did.

You see explaining logically what is outside the realm of knowing would require "faith". It's "logical faith". You, I or even modern science can't explain it. And those that have tried in science are considered "reasonable" and those that have tried in theism are considered delusional.
 
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There is no matter or physics outside the realm of the universe. By definition.
 
There is no matter or physics outside the realm of the universe. By definition.

And how do you know? Have we seen the outside of the universe? Do we even know anything exists? And you just helped my answer to all knowing. If matter or physics doesnt exist outside of the universe, then having an omnipresent being isn't too far fetched.

Both science and theism operate on faith.
 
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