Philosophical question?

[magnifier661]

Have people in here not claim (or allude) that being gay is a sin?

You are missing the point. And yes homosexuality is a sin according to my Hebrew God. Does that bother you? I arguably sinned more than many homosexuals that are my friends. Does me being a Christian give me the right to look at them like they aren't better than me? I don't think so. GOd loves me, and I just admitted that I've sinned more than many of my homosexual friends. Wouldn't that mean, I believe God loves them too?

 

[MadeFromDust]

I think this is important to note to those who think atheist societies can accurately define morals:

During the twentieth century alone, some 170 million people were killed by other human beings. Of those, roughly 130 million people died at the hands of those holding the atheistic ideology. For example, Stalin killed forty million people, Hitler killed six million Jews and nine to ten million others (mainly Christians), and Mao killed some seventy million Chinese. In addition to this number could be added the more than one billion people worldwide who were aborted and killed in the wombs of their mothers during the twentieth century along.

Comparatively, roughly seventeen million people were killed by professing Christians in the name of Christ in twenty total centuries of Christian history. No Christian today lauds them or calls them heroes. Rather, we condemn their misguided zeal. So in all of history, those proclaiming but possibly not professing Christian faith have killed only a tiny fraction of the number of people that atheists and followers of other religions killed in one century.

 

[crowTrobot]

Actually no it doesn't. And if you look at it "logically" you would understand. Adam and Eve had to leave Eden because of their sin. That sin was disobedience. Just disobedience damned all humanity for the rest of their "flesh lives" on Earth. So in God's eyes, this is a mortal sin. How many times were you disobedient? Humanity has put the severity on sin; not God.

someone who doesn't believe the bible is true isn't going to derive their morality from it. you're saying nothing.

Which is why the philosophers put it in God's hands.

a few make the argument that morality must come from god. most disagree.

 

[RR7]

mag, I think you misread or misinterpreted what rasta wrote.

I accept living in a society that commits murder? Is the other option killing myself? I don't accept. Un fortunately, everyone's not listening to me when I tell them not to do it. God says it is wrong, and so do I. yet people still do it. You live in that same society. I have no clue what you're getting at there. Sorry.

I also live in a society that gives us the freedom to choose our religion. If that failed to be the case, I would very likely leave. Although, i don't see how anyone can force you to believe. They can force you to practice his laws, etc. But actual belief isn't going to come from just someone telling you or making you.

 

[RR7]

I think this is important to note to those who think atheist societies can accurately define morals:

During the twentieth century alone, some 170 million people were killed by other human beings. Of those, roughly 130 million people died at the hands of those holding the atheistic ideology. For example, Stalin killed forty million people, Hitler killed six million Jews and nine to ten million others (mainly Christians), and Mao killed some seventy million Chinese. In addition to this number could be added the more than one billion people worldwide who were aborted and killed in the wombs of their mothers during the twentieth century along.

Comparatively, roughly seventeen million people were killed by professing Christians in the name of Christ in twenty total centuries of Christian history. No Christian today lauds them or calls them heroes. Rather, we condemn their misguided zeal. So in all of history, those proclaiming but possibly not professing Christian faith have killed only a tiny fraction of the number of people that atheists and followers of other religions killed in one century.

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

Who wrote that?

 

[magnifier661]

someone who doesn't believe the bible is true isn't going to derive their morality from it. you're saying nothing.

You have completely twisted what I said either because you don't understand or don't want to admit. And forget about the Bible. You don't believe in it. I am asking you what gives you the right to decide what is or what isn't morally right? Why can our Country decide it's okay to put someone to death (and remember that our country doesn't believe in the Holy Bible right?!?!) or collectively agree that they can tear down millions of forest acres to build skyscrappers or kill millions of chickens to put on the dinner table?

You belive in evolution and don't believe in God. Therefor you believe in "Survival of the fittest" right? So you don't have a problem with Nazi Germany killing millions of people because they think they are the superior species right? Or let's tone it down a bit. Let's say that the United States just decided that "A supernatural Meatball" has all the genetic code for life and tea bags planets to inject DNA. They adopt this religion because the people of the United States agree and make it law. Will you believe in the "Supernatural Meatball"? It is law by committee; so you must accept it.

 

[crowTrobot]

You agreed to what Rasta said.

you mean when he pointed out that the concept of god-given morality is meaningless and philosophers tend to agree that morality exists objectively without god? or did that go over your head?

You just completely contridicted yourself. Do you know Nazi Germany actually believed they were the master race, and used the model of "evolution" for "Survival of the Fittest" to wipe out what they believed to be the weaker species? They didn't look at man as equal because they didn't believe in God's laws. They believed in "Evolution's laws". In the mind of evolution; we are all part of the same chemical components. That means, we are no different than the tree, ant, cow or space itself. So what makes killing millions of animals any different than killing millions of people if you truly believe you are superior to them?

you're saying that without god you'd think there's nothing immoral about genocide. just thought i'd point that out.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Who wrote that?

I'm assuming that's a quote from Hitler? You realize Hitler was batshit crazy right? If you read Mien Kampf you'll see that he states numerous times that he wishes for the world to be purged of the evil that is Christianity. I wouldn't put it below Hitler to pose as a Christian in an attempt to destroy the faith. His action certainly don't scream "Jesus" to me.

 

[magnifier661]

mag, I think you misread or misinterpreted what rasta wrote.

I accept living in a society that commits murder? Is the other option killing myself? I don't accept. Un fortunately, everyone's not listening to me when I tell them not to do it. God says it is wrong, and so do I. yet people still do it. You live in that same society. I have no clue what you're getting at there. Sorry.

I also live in a society that gives us the freedom to choose our religion. If that failed to be the case, I would very likely leave. Although, i don't see how anyone can force you to believe. They can force you to practice his laws, etc. But actual belief isn't going to come from just someone telling you or making you.

What if the world all collectively agrees on a certain God? Then what would you do?

 

[RR7]

what the fuck? To believe in evolution means you have no problem with the holocaust?

 

[RR7]

What if the world all collectively agrees on a certain God? Then what would you do?

what would you do if god tells you to murder babies?

what kind of hypotheticals are these? So everyone in the entire world, minus me, is getting together, and agreeing that allah is the one true god, then what do I do? I guess I still believe what I believe.

 

[crowTrobot]

You have completely twisted what I said either because you don't understand or don't want to admit. And forget about the Bible. You don't believe in it. I am asking you what gives you the right to decide what is or what isn't morally right? Why can our Country decide it's okay to put someone to death (and remember that our country doesn't believe in the Holy Bible right?!?!) or collectively agree that they can tear down millions of forest acres to build skyscrappers or kill millions of chickens to put on the dinner table?

what?

You belive in evolution and don't believe in God. Therefor you believe in "Survival of the fittest" right? So you don't have a problem with Nazi Germany killing millions of people because they think they are the superior species right?

what? superior species?

Or let's tone it down a bit. Let's say that the United States just decided that "A supernatural Meatball" has all the genetic code for life and tea bags planets to inject DNA. They adopt this religion because the people of the United States agree and make it law. Will you believe in the "Supernatural Meatball"? It is law by committee; so you must accept it.

what lol?

 

[porkchopexpress]

You have completely twisted what I said either because you don't understand or don't want to admit. And forget about the Bible. You don't believe in it. I am asking you what gives you the right to decide what is or what isn't morally right? Why can our Country decide it's okay to put someone to death (and remember that our country doesn't believe in the Holy Bible right?!?!) or collectively agree that they can tear down millions of forest acres to build skyscrappers or kill millions of chickens to put on the dinner table?

You belive in evolution and don't believe in God. Therefor you believe in "Survival of the fittest" right? So you don't have a problem with Nazi Germany killing millions of people because they think they are the superior species right? Or let's tone it down a bit. Let's say that the United States just decided that "A supernatural Meatball" has all the genetic code for life and tea bags planets to inject DNA. They adopt this religion because the people of the United States agree and make it law. Will you believe in the "Supernatural Meatball"? It is law by committee; so you must accept it.

How can you accuse him of twisting your words and the spout this?

 

[RR7]

I'm assuming that's a quote from Hitler? You realize Hitler was batshit crazy right? If you read Mien Kampf you'll see that he states numerous times that he wishes for the world to be purged of the evil that is Christianity. I wouldn't put it below Hitler to pose as a Christian in an attempt to destroy the faith. His action certainly don't scream "Jesus" to me.

To pose as a christian to destroy the faith? Wouldn't that then imply that he thought what he was doing was wrong, and that people would in turn hate christianity because of his support?
Look, I don't at all think he's a representation of christians. But he wasn't an atheist. He had his beliefs and reasons for doing what he did.

 

[magnifier661]

you mean when he pointed out that the concept of god-given morality is meaningless and philosophers tend to agree that morality exists objectively without god? or did that go over your head?

Okay let's review...

There are university courses you can take on this if you REALLY want to know. They're called "Ethics". Although you might also be interested in Metaethics.
One point to consider when you're evaluating the relationship between God and morality. There's something called the Euthyphro Dilemma

"Is what is morally good commanded by God because it is morally good, or is it morally good because it is commanded by God?"

Philosophically this is a dilema to Christians, other religions and even non-believers. The reason is how can we follow a morality that so many disagree with? So what do we as a people do? Do we join one group that we agree most with, or do we just accept the fact that we are incapable of understand what is truly moral?

so called because it comes up in Plato's dialogue Euthyphro. To paraphrase to fit the god of the Pentateuch/Old Testament:
"Are the 10 Commandments true because God decreed them, or did God decree them because they were true?"

The first option is called Divine Command Theory and it has been rejected by great theologians and philosophers from Plato through St. Thomas Aquinas, Leibniz and onwards. It has several problems, the most serious being:

(a) It makes God's commandments completely arbitrary. He could have said "Thou Shalt Rape and Pillage" (well, he pretty much does elsewhere in the OT, but that's besides the point) and then THAT would've been morally right. But we don't believe that. (If you say "But God wouldn't have commanded that" then explain why not. It can't be that rape and pillaging are antecedently wrong, because that's the SECOND option, not divine command theory.)
(b) It makes God completely whimsical. If you ask "Why did God pick THOSE commandments" the answer has to be: for NO REASON AT ALL. Because if there was a reason, then it would imply that things are good or bad before God decrees them, which, again, is the other option.
(c) It means the statement "God is good" is meaningless, because there is no standard of goodness outside of God by which we can assess him/her/it. It would be like saying "God is God" Well, duh. And so what?

Again another philosophical issue that questions our understanding. This would be the same statement without God. Is the law or "order" of evolution justify mass murder of a class of humans because another group is strong enough to wipe them out; or can they just wipe them out because it is part of the law or order of evolution?

So, the generally accepted view is that if what God commands is good, it's because it already was. He's good at recognizing good from bad, but he doesn't MAKE it good or bad.

And my reference to you playing God has everything to do with this statement that is adopted by almost every philosopher.

You already know something is good because you understand it's not right to kill on your own accord. That means you know the difference between "right and wrong" therefor you claim you have the same powers of God.

I think it's you that doesn't understand what he said.

 

[magnifier661]

what the fuck? To believe in evolution means you have no problem with the holocaust?

Crazy huh?

 

[MadeFromDust]

To pose as a christian to destroy the faith? Wouldn't that then imply that he thought what he was doing was wrong, and that people would in turn hate christianity because of his support?
Look, I don't at all think he's a representation of christians. But he wasn't an atheist. He had his beliefs and reasons for doing what he did.

He was crazy to the core no matter what. I don't see how someone can profess to believe in Jesus Christ and then turn around and slaughter 6 million Jewish people. There's no possible way to know for sure if he was an atheist, but I can tell you by his own admission that he was NOT a Christian. Truthfully, no one wants to be associated with that scumbag.

 

[porkchopexpress]

I think this is important to note to those who think atheist societies can accurately define morals:

During the twentieth century alone, some 170 million people were killed by other human beings. Of those, roughly 130 million people died at the hands of those holding the atheistic ideology. For example, Stalin killed forty million people, Hitler killed six million Jews and nine to ten million others (mainly Christians), and Mao killed some seventy million Chinese. In addition to this number could be added the more than one billion people worldwide who were aborted and killed in the wombs of their mothers during the twentieth century along.

Comparatively, roughly seventeen million people were killed by professing Christians in the name of Christ in twenty total centuries of Christian history. No Christian today lauds them or calls them heroes. Rather, we condemn their misguided zeal. So in all of history, those proclaiming but possibly not professing Christian faith have killed only a tiny fraction of the number of people that atheists and followers of other religions killed in one century.

What is your point? That atheists can murder too? People can use anything, be it Christianity, Islam, Communism, etc, to justify their actions. That is not unique to Atheists. You also fail to mention that the world population in the 20th century was way higher than during the crusades or any other time in history? The fact that we can now kill millions with one bomb also should be mentioned.

 

[magnifier661]

How can you accuse him of twisting your words and the spout this?

Twisting? Why would it be twisting? It's the truth.

 

[3RA1N1AC]

supernatural meatball?

most animals kill each other, humans are the only ones smart/dumb enough to feel bad about it

 

[RR7]

I don't see how someone can believe in jesus and his teachings and do a lot of things. But then again, many just fall back on the thought that their sins have been forgiven already. So one man being much worse than the rest makes him less of a christian than you. Or mags. I mean, to mags, all sins are the same. So genocide or lusting after the neigbors new car. All equal. So why judge his actions as worse, and thus declare he can't possibly be a christian because of his actions.

 

[porkchopexpress]

Twisting? Why would it be twisting? It's the truth.

It's the truth that if you believe in evolution you are ok with holocaust? Ok...

 

[Sedatedfork]

supernatural meatball?

most animals kill each other, humans are the only ones smart/dumb enough to feel bad about it

I don't ever feel bad when I take punks out on Call of Duty.

 

[RR7]

Twisting? Why would it be twisting? It's the truth.

it's the truth that to believe in evolution means you are ok with the holocaust? Seriously? Seriously?

 

[MadeFromDust]

What is your point? That atheists can murder too? People can use anything, be it Christianity, Islam, Communism, etc, to justify their actions. That is not unique to Atheists. You also fail to mention that the world population in the 20th century was way higher than during the crusades or any other time in history? The fact that we can now kill millions with one bomb also should be mentioned.

130 million in one century or 17 million in 20 centuries? Yeah... Christians were around in the 20th century too you know, and far outnumbered those atheists. Also I'm not aware of any of those deaths resulting from a nuclear bomb.

 

[RR7]

130 million in one century or 17 million in 20 centuries? .

That doesn't at all address, though, the huge disparity in populations. What was the population of the world in 10 AD? Compared to during WWII?

 

[MadeFromDust]

I don't see how someone can believe in jesus and his teachings and do a lot of things. But then again, many just fall back on the thought that their sins have been forgiven already. So one man being much worse than the rest makes him less of a christian than you. Or mags. I mean, to mags, all sins are the same. So genocide or lusting after the neigbors new car. All equal. So why judge his actions as worse, and thus declare he can't possibly be a christian because of his actions.

No, not all sins are equal in the eyes of God. If you read the Bible you would know that. You're not going to "fool" God. Jesus sacrifice didn't give us a free pass to sin whenever we like. God knows the heart, and the closer you get to God the more you will utterly despise your sin. Also, Europe was overwhelmingly Roman Catholic in Hitlers day, I wouldn't be surprised if that move was for political reasons, too.

 

[magnifier661]

what?

what don't you understand. What do you need me to clearify? "What?" is too generalized.

what? superior species?

What gives you the right to think otherwise? Are you superior to them? Was it morally right to put all of them (The Nazi extremists) to death for what the majority worly opinion believes was morally wrong?

what lol?

Sounds logically idiotic doesn't it?

 

[MadeFromDust]

That doesn't at all address, though, the huge disparity in populations. What was the population of the world in 10 AD? Compared to during WWII?

Christians were around in the 20th century too you know. And atheists were around in 10 AD.

 

[Sedatedfork]

I don't see how someone can believe in jesus and his teachings and do a lot of things.

Jesus said that it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle then for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. How many Christians do you see ridding themselves of all their earthly possessions? But, if they want to get to heaven why don't they?