Philosophical question?

[ABM]

you must have missed what i was responding to. i was pointing out that an intelligent person shouldn't need to refer to the bible to know if they should go around murdering people or not. they should be able to figure that out using their own common sense.

in actuality christians form most of their moral views (those not involving sex anyway) the same way atheists do.

God gave the 10 Commandments to a very primitive society.

Fast--forward ------------------------>

God gave us Jesus, His Holy Spirit, and the wealth of Scriptures to figure it out from here. For me, it wasn't too hard. It's why I'm a believer today.

 

[crowTrobot]

The laws I was referring to are the 10 commandments God gave to Moses on Mount Sinai. Some ignorant Christians claim gay people are bad, nowhere does God claim they are bad (no more than anyone else) or that He "hates ***s". God hates sin, not the sinner. God loves homosexuals just as much as He loves anyone else. You may ask why people are born gay, well I say it's the result of a broken, sinful world. People don't choose to be born blind, or crippled or handicapped either. You have to work with the cards given to you. God has a plan of salvation for everyone, whether or not you choose to be a part of that plan is up to you.

comparing homosexuality to a physical handicap isn't going to help your case : )

 

[MadeFromDust]

comparing homosexuality to a physical handicap isn't going to help your case : )

You're right, and most of the handicapped people I've met believe in God. So I guess gay people don't really have much of an excuse then.

 

[RR7]

Don't have much of an excuse for what?

 

[magnifier661]

comparing homosexuality to a physical handicap isn't going to help your case : )

Playing God and thinking you are justified to know what is moraly right isn't going to help your case.

 

[MadeFromDust]

Don't have much of an excuse for what?

An excuse to not believe in God, considering there are scores of people in this world that have it worse than them only to praise God for what they DO have. Mainly an opportunity for an eternal paradise in heaven.

 

[ABM]

Don't have much of an excuse for what?

None of us have "excuses" for sin. God says sin is sin is sin....whether it's stealing pencils from your employer......or offing someone.

 

[porkchopexpress]

An excuse to not believe in God, considering there are scores of people in this world that have it worse than them only to praise God for what they DO have. Mainly an opportunity for an eternal paradise in heaven.

Who says they don't believe in God? Some do. Some don't.

 

[RR7]

I would guess many that don't believe have that belief because it is their belief and not a belief only because they were "made gay".

 

[magnifier661]

And talking about homosexuality. I think there is a generalized misconception. Sin is sin and God loves all sinners. If you think Homosexuality is a sin; then in God's eyes; it would be described with someone that cheats on their taxes or runs a red light.

Who are we to play God? As many of the great philosophers back in the day. This isn't our job to determine morality because we are incapable of all agreeing on what's moral. This is why it becomes a catch-22. If you don't believe in God, then you can't believe in his rules. Then if you can't believe in his rules, then you must play God and make the rules. Let's just put aside the literal word "God". You know the higher power. I believe the great philosophers are referring to God as a "Metaphore". The idea of being a race or civilization that is justified to create rules and punish these rules; even by death.

If you believe in abortion, then you believe man can make "Godly decisions". If you believe in the "Death Penalty" then you believe society has the "power" to make godly decisions. If you believe that man can kill thousands of animals to settle in their natural habitat, or for food; then you believe man can make "godly decisions". It's really quite simple. I don't know why you are trying to complicate it.

 

[porkchopexpress]

None of us have "excuses" for sin. God says sin is sin is sin....whether it's stealing pencils from your employer......or offing someone.

So their sin is being gay?

 

[MadeFromDust]

Who says they don't believe in God? Some do. Some don't.

I know a lot do, I also know of a lot of gay people who are vocal against God for creating them that way. None of us are perfect, and we're all subject to sin. That is my point.

 

[RR7]

I know a lot do, I also know of a lot of gay people who are vocal against God for creating them that way. None of us are perfect, and we're all subject to sin. That is my point.

If they are mad at god for creating them that way, that would imply they believe in god then, no?

 

[RR7]

And talking about homosexuality. I think there is a generalized misconception. Sin is sin and God loves all sinners. If you think Homosexuality is a sin; then in God's eyes; it would be described with someone that cheats on their taxes or runs a red light.

Who are we to play God? As many of the great philosophers back in the day. This isn't our job to determine morality because we are incapable of all agreeing on what's moral. This is why it becomes a catch-22. If you don't believe in God, then you can't believe in his rules. Then if you can't believe in his rules, then you must play God and make the rules. Let's just put aside the literal word "God". You know the higher power. I believe the great philosophers are referring to God as a "Metaphore". The idea of being a race or civilization that is justified to create rules and punish these rules; even by death.

If you believe in abortion, then you believe man can make "Godly decisions". If you believe in the "Death Penalty" then you believe society has the "power" to make godly decisions. If you believe that man can kill thousands of animals to settle in their natural habitat, or for food; then you believe man can make "godly decisions". It's really quite simple. I don't know why you are trying to complicate it.

It's quite simple that man "plays god"? Sure. I don't call it playing god though, when I make decisions and judgements in life.

 

[crowTrobot]

Playing God and thinking you are justified to know what is moraly right isn't going to help your case.

that's a meaningless statement to someone who doesn't believe the bible is true. i'm fully justified in thinking there's nothing immoral about homosexuality just as a matter of common sense.

anyway i was just saying all he's gonna accomplish is to piss people off. a lot of homosexuals in the USA consider themselves christians, that happen to take leviticus and the opinions of paul a little less literally than you do.

 

[magnifier661]

It's quite simple that man "plays god"? Sure. I don't call it playing god though, when I make decisions and judgements in life.

Okay so you are an Anarchist?

 

[MadeFromDust]

If they are mad at god for creating them that way, that would imply they believe in god then, no?

Well my point is that it's a major driving force behind gay people turning against God. They say if God is so good, then why am I like this? When combined with the lies that society has spread about gay people and God it's easy to see why many gay people aren't eager to adhere to religious belief.

 

[RR7]

Okay so you are an Anarchist?

nope. And don't believe being an atheist makes you an anarchist in any way.

 

[magnifier661]

that's a meaningless statement to someone who doesn't believe the bible is true. i'm fully justified in thinking there's nothing immoral about homosexuality just as a matter of common sense.

anyway i was just saying all he's gonna accomplish is to piss people off. a lot of homosexuals in the USA consider themselves christians, that happen to take leviticus and the opinions of paul a little less literally than you do.

Actually no it doesn't. And if you look at it "logically" you would understand. Adam and Eve had to leave Eden because of their sin. That sin was disobedience. Just disobedience damned all humanity for the rest of their "flesh lives" on Earth. So in God's eyes, this is a mortal sin. How many times were you disobedient? Humanity has put the severity on sin; not God. Which is why the philosophers put it in God's hands.

 

[magnifier661]

nope. And don't believe being an atheist makes you an anarchist in any way.

Anarchist and Atheist aren't the same. I didn't say that. I am asking you on your personal belief. You said that we as a individual must decide what is right from wrong. That statement is called Anarchy.

 

[porkchopexpress]

Well my point is that it's a major driving force behind gay people turning against God. They say if God is so good, then why am I like this? When combined with the lies that society has spread about gay people and God it's easy to see why many gay people aren't eager to adhere to religious belief.

what are these lies?

 

[magnifier661]

Well my point is that it's a major driving force behind gay people turning against God. They say if God is so good, then why am I like this? When combined with the lies that society has spread about gay people and God it's easy to see why many gay people aren't eager to adhere to religious belief.

There aren't all gay people that say that. Don't generalize a group based on what a single person, few or many say. All of us have different views. Some of us actually follow other views because we don't want to think for ourselves.

I look at sin as sin because I don't know the difference. All I know is what the Holy Spirit and the Bible tell me. I don't trust any man except for Jesus Christ.

 

[crowTrobot]

Who are we to play God?

question begging

As many of the great philosophers back in the day.

the majority of philosophers agree morality exists independently from god.

This isn't our job to determine morality because we are incapable of all agreeing on what's moral.

on the contrary, when people claim secular morality they tend to agree, and where moral disagreements do exist it is largely due to religious belief.

If you believe in abortion, then you believe man can make "Godly decisions". If you believe in the "Death Penalty" then you believe society has the "power" to make godly decisions. If you believe that man can kill thousands of animals to settle in their natural habitat, or for food; then you believe man can make "godly decisions". It's really quite simple. I don't know why you are trying to complicate it.

thank you for clarifying that : )

 

[MadeFromDust]

what are these lies?

"God hates f@gs" or that people claim gays themselves are an abomination to God. Things of that nature.

 

[MadeFromDust]

There aren't all gay people that say that. Don't generalize a group based on what a single person, few or many say. All of us have different views. Some of us actually follow other views because we don't want to think for ourselves.

I look at sin as sin because I don't know the difference. All I know is what the Holy Spirit and the Bible tell me. I don't trust any man except for Jesus Christ.

I never said all gays, just addressing the ones who do look for a reason to disbelieve. I said in my post earlier that there are many gay people who love and worship God.

 

[porkchopexpress]

"God hates f@gs" or that people claim gays themselves are an abomination to God. Things of that nature.

Have people in here not claim (or allude) that being gay is a sin?

 

[RR7]

Anarchist and Atheist aren't the same. I didn't say that. I am asking you on your personal believe. You said that we as a individual must decide what is right from wrong. That statement is called Anarchy.

Well, you implied it. Why ask if I am an anarchist? I did not say we must decide right from wrong individually. I simply said I don't call it playing god when I make decisions and judgments. I'm not playing god, in my opinion, when I don't punch people. As was stated earlier in this thread, I don't need to believe in god or the 10 commandments to believe morally that murder is wrong. So I don't go out and murder people.

I do believe in a democratic system that allows society to judge as a majority what ends up being legal and illegal. I can disagree with it, like in the cases of gay marriage, etc. I can think it's, say, immoral, to deny two men who love eachother from getting married. That isn't anarchy. Just like it's not anarchy when you decide, as an individual, that the bible is right. YOU decided what was bad and good, right and wrong, etc. by believing in the bible and choosing to follow the words of it. So who are you to play god by deciding that is right?

 

[MadeFromDust]

Have people in here not claim (or allude) that being gay is a sin?

The act of sexual intercourse with someone of the same gender is a sin, but no "being" gay is not a sin.

 

[magnifier661]

the majority of philosophers agree morality exists independently from god.

You agreed to what Rasta said. Would you like me to repost your agreement and what was actually taught in philosophy? Or are you disagreeing now because it goes against your argument?

on the contrary, when people claim secular morality they tend to agree, and where moral disagreements do exist it is largely due to religious belief.

You just completely contridicted yourself. Do you know Nazi Germany actually believed they were the master race, and used the model of "evolution" for "Survival of the Fittest" to wipe out what they believed to be the weaker species? They didn't look at man as equal because they didn't believe in God's laws. They believed in "Evolution's laws". In the mind of evolution; we are all part of the same chemical components. That means, we are no different than the tree, ant, cow or space itself. So what makes killing millions of animals any different than killing millions of people if you truly believe you are superior to them?

I don't agree with this one bit, and the danger of thinking man has this ability to make these decisions on their own can be destructive to this planet and ourselves.

And you are welcome for clarifying it for you.

 

[magnifier661]

Well, you implied it. Why ask if I am an anarchist? I did not say we must decide right from wrong individually. I simply said I don't call it playing god when I make decisions and judgments. I'm not playing god, in my opinion, when I don't punch people. As was stated earlier in this thread, I don't need to believe in god or the 10 commandments to believe morally that murder is wrong. So I don't go out and murder people.

I do believe in a democratic system that allows society to judge as a majority what ends up being legal and illegal. I can disagree with it, like in the cases of gay marriage, etc. I can think it's, say, immoral, to deny two men who love eachother from getting married. That isn't anarchy. Just like it's not anarchy when you decide, as an individual, that the bible is right. YOU decided what was bad and good, right and wrong, etc. by believing in the bible and choosing to follow the words of it. So who are you to play god by deciding that is right?

But you accept living in a society that commits murder. And if you believe in a "democratic system", then what would you do if the majority told you that you must believe in "God A"? Will you conform?