Philosophical question?

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we agree that people shouldn't murder each other because we share the value of not wanting to die. this agreement is a matter of common sense, not some metaphysical miracle out of nowhere.



homosexuality is a prescriptive moral topic. just saying 'everyone wants to be loved' isn't. when you say that you're just talking about how we feel, not what we should do.

and most higher mammals want to be loved in the same way humans do, and most form the same social bonds humans do. so good luck differentiating that from evolved instinct.



well yeah, humans consciously value their own well-being. again that's simple common sense. no reason to resort to some mysterious metaphysical infusion from god to explain that.

LOL, we are talking about morals. And to be perfectly honest; the truest morals are as easy as common sense. When it comes easy, there are no questions regardless of Faith, Science, Political View, etc. It is non-discriminative across the board. Which again, is from your original point; there are common morals regardless of Faith, Creed, Political View, etc.
 
Humans don't have any morality "infused."

The first tool was likely used to beat someone else over the head.

Our morals and the morals of the Romans are extremely different.

And I think I'd like to become a religious person. I like the Hindu god, and he made the universe in a very different way than the christian one did. How does that square?

Hmmm, so you were a caveman and able to study them for their course of existence? So now you know what they are thinking? Maybe Denny is God! You saying the thoughts and feelings of people before their was written history is as factual as Christianity is the only religion.

But I'm glad you are playing the "Faith" game with us too. You have a lot of faith to think morality's first tool used to be beating someone else over the head.
 
Humans don't have any morality "infused."

The first tool was likely used to beat someone else over the head.

Our morals and the morals of the Romans are extremely different.

And I think I'd like to become a religious person. I like the Hindu god, and he made the universe in a very different way than the christian one did. How does that square?

Hmmm, so you were a caveman and able to study them for their course of existence? So now you know what they are thinking? Maybe Denny is God! You saying the thoughts and feelings of people before their was written history is as factual as Christianity is the only religion.

But I'm glad you are playing the "Faith" game with us too. You have a lot of faith to think morality's first tool used to be beating someone else over the head.
 
And I think I'd like to become a religious person. I like the Hindu god, and he made the universe in a very different way than the christian one did. How does that square?
There are millions of "gods" in Hinduism, I'm sure you could pick one out to your liking.
 
Hmmm, so you were a caveman and able to study them for their course of existence? So now you know what they are thinking? Maybe Denny is God! You saying the thoughts and feelings of people before their was written history is as factual as Christianity is the only religion.

But I'm glad you are playing the "Faith" game with us too. You have a lot of faith to think morality's first tool used to be beating someone else over the head.

First of all, read my signature. God thinks he's Denny Crane.

Second, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi_the_Iceman#Cause_of_death

n 2001 X-rays and a CT scan revealed that Ötzi had an arrowhead lodged in his left shoulder when he died,[37] and a matching small tear on his coat.[38] The discovery of the arrowhead prompted researchers to theorize Ötzi died of blood loss from the wound, which would likely have been fatal even if modern medical techniques had been available.[39] Further research found that the arrow's shaft had been removed before death, and close examination of the body found bruises and cuts to the hands, wrists and chest and cerebral trauma indicative of a blow to the head. One of the cuts was to the base of his thumb that reached down to the bone but had no time to heal before his death. Currently it is believed that death was caused by a blow to the head, though researchers are unsure if this was due to a fall, or from being struck with a rock by another person.[40] Unpublished and thus unconfirmed DNA analyses claim they revealed traces of blood from four other people on his gear: one from his knife, two from the same arrowhead, and a fourth from his coat.[41] Interpretations of these findings were that Ötzi killed two people with the same arrow, and was able to retrieve it on both occasions, and the blood on his coat was from a wounded comrade he may have carried over his back.[38] Ötzi's unnatural posture in death (frozen body, face down, left arm bent across the chest) suggests that the theory of a solitary death from blood loss, hunger, cold and weakness is untenable. Rather, before death occurred and rigor mortis set in, the Iceman was turned on to his stomach in the effort to remove the arrow shaft.

(this guy died 5,300 years ago, shortly after the earth was created... long before the early dynastic period of Egypt)
 
You are 100% right. So which sheep are you? One that admits Dawkins is sophisticated; yet will discount another because they believe in intelligent design? I like being the Sheep that puts my faith in Jesus Christ; the only perfect being on this planet.

There are millions of people who believe the world is flat. There are millions of people who believe we never landed on the moon. There are millions of people who can't differentiate between fiction and non-fiction. There are millions of people who believe 72 virgins await them in heaven. There are millions of people who insist the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

So yeah, I dismiss those people's opinions on those subjects because I know they are preposterous. Like believing the bible is a work of non-fiction.
 
All humans agree that killing is not moral.

Nothing could be further from the truth.

Most humans think it's perfectly reasonable, as long as they aren't held legally responsible for it and it happens to strangers in another land. Hell, they'll even pay for it through their taxes.

A good proportion of serial killers were actually told by god to kill their victims.

And you know better than I how many humans idolize and worship god, the #1 mass murderer of alltime.

IMO, there are only two acceptable reasons to kill another human. Self-defense and revenge.
 
First of all, read my signature. God thinks he's Denny Crane.

Second, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ötzi_the_Iceman#Cause_of_death

n 2001 X-rays and a CT scan revealed that Ötzi had an arrowhead lodged in his left shoulder when he died,[37] and a matching small tear on his coat.[38] The discovery of the arrowhead prompted researchers to theorize Ötzi died of blood loss from the wound, which would likely have been fatal even if modern medical techniques had been available.[39] Further research found that the arrow's shaft had been removed before death, and close examination of the body found bruises and cuts to the hands, wrists and chest and cerebral trauma indicative of a blow to the head. One of the cuts was to the base of his thumb that reached down to the bone but had no time to heal before his death. Currently it is believed that death was caused by a blow to the head, though researchers are unsure if this was due to a fall, or from being struck with a rock by another person.[40] Unpublished and thus unconfirmed DNA analyses claim they revealed traces of blood from four other people on his gear: one from his knife, two from the same arrowhead, and a fourth from his coat.[41] Interpretations of these findings were that Ötzi killed two people with the same arrow, and was able to retrieve it on both occasions, and the blood on his coat was from a wounded comrade he may have carried over his back.[38] Ötzi's unnatural posture in death (frozen body, face down, left arm bent across the chest) suggests that the theory of a solitary death from blood loss, hunger, cold and weakness is untenable. Rather, before death occurred and rigor mortis set in, the Iceman was turned on to his stomach in the effort to remove the arrow shaft.

(this guy died 5,300 years ago, shortly after the earth was created... long before the early dynastic period of Egypt)

LOL! Yeah one person was dug up and because of this one person, morality was to beat someone's head in. Come on Denny, you are way more reasonable than that. I won't even except this to be even close to a sensible answer from you.
 
There are millions of people who believe the world is flat. There are millions of people who believe we never landed on the moon. There are millions of people who can't differentiate between fiction and non-fiction. There are millions of people who believe 72 virgins await them in heaven. There are millions of people who insist the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

So yeah, I dismiss those people's opinions on those subjects because I know they are preposterous. Like believing the bible is a work of non-fiction.

Case closed... Your opinion on Craig don't fit that criteria, except for the last statement. Glad you now recognize that Craig is sophisticated. Follow along.
 
Google for "history of violence," and you'll find numerous scholarly articles about violence in ancient times.

The Bible is full of ancient fairy tales of the gory sort.
 
Nothing could be further from the truth.

Most humans think it's perfectly reasonable, as long as they aren't held legally responsible for it and it happens to strangers in another land. Hell, they'll even pay for it through their taxes.

A good proportion of serial killers were actually told by god to kill their victims.

And you know better than I how many humans idolize and worship god, the #1 mass murderer of alltime.

IMO, there are only two acceptable reasons to kill another human. Self-defense and revenge.

I'm not gonna answer the lame digs at religion, since I don't believe in religion.

People kill because they know how morally wrong it is. And you are basing "moral basis" for murder. Of course killing 1 person to spare 5 can be argued if it's morally right. But everyone you talk to in the entire planet; they think that baseless killing is morally wrong.

So don't try and sway the absolute of "Killing" and "Justify Killing". Of course that's different.

Thanks for playing...

BTW... Here is a good Philosophy lecture on justified "Murder". But that is completely irrelevant to my original argument.
 
People have always murdered for the same things. Jealous of something someone else has, over a woman, over territory, preemptive strike, etc.
 
People have always murdered for the same things. Jealous of something someone else has, over a woman, over territory, preemptive strike, etc.

Yes, but like I said, you ask every person on the planet, and ask them "Is killing moral"? And they will agree "no".

We aren't debating if it's justified; we are debating if everyone thinks it's moral.
 
Google for "history of violence," and you'll find numerous scholarly articles about violence in ancient times.

The Bible is full of ancient fairy tales of the gory sort.

Are you trying to bury the original argument? Everyone knows about violence and justified destruction. One of the biggest Murderer in Atheism "Stalin" who also, in his own mind, justifiably murdered millions of people. So what?

I ask you one more time. Do you agree that if you ask everyone on the planet "Is killing moral"? Will they say yes?
 
Are you trying to bury the original argument? Everyone knows about violence and justified destruction. One of the biggest Murderer in Atheism "Stalin" who also, in his own mind, justifiably murdered millions of people. So what?

I ask you one more time. Do you agree that if you ask everyone on the planet "Is killing moral"? Will they say yes?

I think the question would be answered differently by people of different cultures. Romans fed Christians to the lions and sport was gladiators fighting to the death. The Maya practiced human sacrifice. Other cultures shrink heads. The native Americans had wars that were proportionally 20x worse than Stalin. Ethnic cleansing mass killings by Pol Pot just 30 years ago. Ethnic cleansing in Rwanda less than 20 years ago. Ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia less than 15 years ago. Religious & ethnic civil war in Iraq ongoing.

Ask the killers if what they did was moral, and they'll say yes.
 
Case closed... Your opinion on Craig don't fit that criteria, except for the last statement. Glad you now recognize that Craig is sophisticated. Follow along.

LOL, "except for the last statement". :biglaugh:

It fits him to a T.
 
Yes, but like I said, you ask every person on the planet, and ask them "Is killing moral"? And they will agree "no".

We aren't debating if it's justified; we are debating if everyone thinks it's moral.

You either haven't actually known very many people in your life or they all came from the same neighborhood. Hitler did not think killing was morally wrong, nor did Bush, Bushjr, nor does Obama. They're perfectly fine with it on a mass scale in fact. Perry's biggest disappointment is he won't get to give the order to bomb Iran.

I'm fairly certain that there is nothing you can ask the world and get the same answer from everyone. We're not really all that much alike.

Take me. Killing in self-defense or for revenge are moral. Maybe even mandatory in some situations.

Bombing populations definitely not moral. Killing for money or power definitely not moral.

Generally speaking, killing other people is what stupid people do.

Smart people find simpler ways to reach their desired outcome.
 
Smart people find simpler ways to reach their desired outcome.

I agree. I'm convinced that if the United States had been more diligent in working with Osama Bin Laden to find some sort of common ground, 9-11 could have completely been avoided. It's so sad that we totally missed that critical opportunity.
 
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What's funny is that the killing was jumped on. I guess peace and love was just ignored. Lol
 
You're being sarcastic but OBL was pretty much Made by the USA, as was Saddam, as was the Shah of Iran, as was Gaddaffi, as was Mubarek...

9/11 was completely avoidable.

OBL was seeking revenge for atrocities committed by our government and our military and our spies against Arab civilians. Unfortunately for American civilians, he targeted us rather than take a higher moral ground than our government did.

Smart people wouldn't bomb Arab civilians and arm their enemies. Smart people would leave them be, leave their property be, leave their religion be, leave their oilfields be.
 
You are looking at this literally. Let me break it down...

Give it in secrete; means don't give so others know you given because of you. But if you read the entire passage; what that means is not to give for others to see what you do for your own glory. Because of that "Selfless act", you get the reward from God.

But before, he is telling you that anything that will show and prove to the world that gift is for the Glory of God; and you better show that it's only for his glory; you get a reward.

Like a good little puppy!
 
You're being sarcastic but OBL was pretty much Made by the USA, as was Saddam, as was the Shah of Iran, as was Gaddaffi, as was Mubarek...

9/11 was completely avoidable.

OBL was seeking revenge for atrocities committed by our government and our military and our spies against Arab civilians. Unfortunately for American civilians, he targeted us rather than take a higher moral ground than our government did.

Smart people wouldn't bomb Arab civilians and arm their enemies. Smart people would leave them be, leave their property be, leave their religion be, leave their oilfields be.

Ah, shucks. I think you're on to something here. We could just as well have been playing these guys in chess, as opposed to maddening them into to committing atrocities against their own people.....and us, as well.
 
What's funny is that the killing was jumped on. I guess peace and love was just ignored. Lol

No, they were strawmen, which you objected to when Denny strayed a bit so I left them out.

But I know people who don't want love or peace, too.
 
Ah, shucks. I think you're on to something here. We could just as well have been playing these guys in chess, as opposed to maddening them into to committing atrocities against their own people.....and us, as well.

Or just left them alone and not murdered them for oil companies.
 
Aaaand since this thread has now fallen completely off the tracks, here is some pi.

[video=youtube;27OQfd_Sq4c]
 
Or just left them alone and not murdered them for oil companies.

No kidding. We have plenty of oil on our own soil to drill. We need to get at it!
 
Aaaand since this thread has now fallen completely off the tracks, here is some pi.

My personal favorite:

01+pie.jpg
 

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