Player contracts in a free market?

[Denny Crane]

The CBA makes the market fro players anything but free.

Assume there is no CBA.

I think LeBron would sign a guaranteed $20M deal, with incentives to get him to $50M. Incentives like minutes played - to insure he's being paid and healthy.

Who else gets really big contracts like that?

Rose? Wade? Westbrook?

Durant almost certainly. Kobe, too.

Batum might ave scored an even bigger deal.

Seems a lot fairer to me. Small market teams would have to be owned by Paul Allen types - willing to spend and write off the loss.

Thoughts?

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Have a look at European Football ("soccer").

 

[Denny Crane]

Have a look at European Football ("soccer").

Tell me more

 

[Nikolokolus]

Lebron would make more than that.

 

[Denny Crane]

Lebron would make more than that.

Maybe. But it'd take someone like Allen to give him $1Billion over 10 years (if he made $100M/year, say).

 

[oldmangrouch]

There is something fundamentally wrong with a system that penalizes owners for investing in their teams.

Even if you feel the need to regulate base salaries, teams should have much more flexibility in offering incentive clauses.

Imagine a league where the base salary covered 41 wins - and every win past 41 meant every player on the team gets a bonus check. Do you think you would still see teams quitting on their coach or otherwise dogging it?

 

[handiman]

Imagine a league where the base salary covered 41 wins - and every win past 41 meant every player on the team gets a bonus check. Do you think you would still see teams quitting on their coach or otherwise dogging it?

Then you'd end up with quality free agents staying far away from bad teams and rookies saying they'll hold out if drafted by them.

 

[ebott]

At some point when Bosh and LeBron went to Miami and everyone started freaking out about there being a few super teams and the rest of the league being a bunch of have nots someone suggested that one fix to the problem could be the elimination of the max salary. You'd have the same salary cap but your marquee players, the ones that people actually show up to see, would be making half of the money. No marquee player in their right mind would give up the ability to make that kind of money to play with other Marquee guys.

 

[Denny Crane]

Salary cap means not a free market

EDIT: in other words, in a free market, Paul Allen could pay LeBron $100M, Wade $100M, and Bosh $100M if he chose.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

In European Football you have a select number of clubs who ALWAYS win, and the rest of them either hope to be bought out by Russian Oligarchs so they can compete (Manchester City) or act as farm teams for the big boys. Count how many Premiership championships Manchester United has won. Or, even worse, look at Scotland: has ANYONE besides Celtic or Rangers won in the past few decades?

 

[Denny Crane]

In European Football you have a select number of clubs who ALWAYS win, and the rest of them either hope to be bought out by Russian Oligarchs so they can compete (Manchester City) or act as farm teams for the big boys. Count how many Premiership championships Manchester United has won. Or, even worse, look at Scotland: has ANYONE besides Celtic or Rangers won in the past few decades?

There was no salary cap when a certain very small market team named the Trail Blazers won a championship, eh?

1971 Bucks
1972 Lakers
1973 Lakers
1974 Bucks
1975 Warriors
1976 Suns
1977 Blazers
1978 Sonics
1979 Sonics

Which of those teams always won? Which were big market teams (Lakers!)?

 

[Pinwheel1]

There was no salary cap when a certain very small market team named the Trail Blazers won a championship, eh?

1971 Bucks
1972 Lakers
1973 Lakers
1974 Bucks
1975 Warriors
1976 Suns
1977 Blazers
1978 Sonics
1979 Sonics

Which of those teams always won? Which were big market teams (Lakers!)?

Yes thanks to the ABA folding. BTW I don't think Phoenix won in 197ever

 

[Denny Crane]

Yes thanks to the ABA folding. BTW I don't think Phoenix won in 197ever

Wow, that WWW page had a lot of wrong results.

1970 Knicks
1971 Bucks
1972 Lakers
1973 Knicks
1974 Celtics
1975 Warriors
1976 Celtics
1977 Blazers
1978 Bullets
1979 Sonics

Source NBA.com

(no back to back winners, small market teams competed just fine - Milwaukee won before the ABA merger, for example)

 

[magnifier661]

Well it would only allow for the Yankee teams to win a shit ton.

 

[magnifier661]

Is Miami and Orlando considered big markets now?

 

[KeepOnRollin]

If the Euro League was not an option for one reason or another then you would probably have more parity here like there was in the 70's when the ABA folded.

 

[Denny Crane]

Is Miami and Orlando considered big markets now?

Miami is the 8th largest MSA in the country. Bigger than Boston which is 10th.

The Yankees have HUUUUUUGE TV contracts that aren't shared among the teams. I didn't mention profit sharing, but my view is there should be a free market and profit sharing among the teams.

 

[GriLtCheeZ]

In European Football you have a select number of clubs who ALWAYS win, and the rest of them either hope to be bought out by Russian Oligarchs so they can compete (Manchester City) or act as farm teams for the big boys. Count how many Premiership championships Manchester United has won. Or, even worse, look at Scotland: has ANYONE besides Celtic or Rangers won in the past few decades?

Aberdeen in 83-84, 84-85

 

[PapaG]

There was no salary cap when a certain very small market team named the Trail Blazers won a championship, eh?

1971 Bucks
1972 Lakers
1973 Lakers
1974 Bucks
1975 Warriors
1976 Suns
1977 Blazers
1978 Sonics
1979 Sonics

Which of those teams always won? Which were big market teams (Lakers!)?

There was no TV money at the point, and owners could collude to keep salaries competitive. Some players even used to have real jobs in the offseason before Magic and Bird happened, and TV finally started paying attention and airing games live.

 

[PapaG]

The average NBA salary in 1976-77 was $130,000, a figure that more than doubled to $275,000 by 1983-84, the year before the beginning of the Jordan era.

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/...alary-cap-lockout-union-director-billy-hunter

 

[KingSpeed]

LeBron would make at LEAST $75 million a year.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

There was no TV money at the point, and owners could collude to keep salaries competitive. Some players even used to have real jobs in the offseason before Magic and Bird happened, and TV finally started paying attention and airing games live.

Not to mention that there was no real free agency until 1980 either.

 

[Denny Crane]

There was no TV money at the point, and owners could collude to keep salaries competitive. Some players even used to have real jobs in the offseason before Magic and Bird happened, and TV finally started paying attention and airing games live.

Why would they collude when a rich owner could sign Kareem to a big contract and win championships?

 

[Denny Crane]

Not to mention that there was no real free agency until 1980 either.

Oscar Robertson's sued the NBA in 1970 for antitrust. It was settled in 1976 with FA rules established but with right of first refusal.

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016428.html

Although he wasn't playing anymore, Robertson was not out of sight. As president of the players union, his 1970 suit against the NBA contended the draft, option clause and other rules restricting player movement were violations of antitrust laws. The suit was settled in 1976, when the league agreed to let players become free agents in exchange for their old team's "right of first refusal" to match any offer they might receive.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Oscar Robertson's sued the NBA in 1970 for antitrust. It was settled in 1976 with FA rules established but with right of first refusal.

http://espn.go.com/sportscentury/features/00016428.html

Although he wasn't playing anymore, Robertson was not out of sight. As president of the players union, his 1970 suit against the NBA contended the draft, option clause and other rules restricting player movement were violations of antitrust laws. The suit was settled in 1976, when the league agreed to let players become free agents in exchange for their old team's "right of first refusal" to match any offer they might receive.

Free agency existed in 1976, but teams received compensation from other teams if they lost a player in free agency until after 1980.

http://www.apbr.org/labor.html

After attempts to work out a compromise with the players in 1971 and to get Congressional approval for a merger in 1972 failed, the NBPA (now led by NBPA President Paul Silas of Boston who replaced Robertson in 1975) and the league reached a tentative agreement giving players free agency with their teams awarded compensation through 1980 (with the compensation of cash, players or draft choices determined by the NBA Commissioner) after which the player's former team would hold the right of first refusal on any free agent signings;

 

[Denny Crane]

^^^ so what? What kind of compensation could you get for Kareem that makes you whole?

The Lakers went from 40 to 53 wins his first two seasons.

The Bucks went from 60 wins his last few seasons to 38 and then 30 after he left.

kareem was able to "request" a trade and got it, too ...

 

[PapaG]

Why would they collude when a rich owner could sign Kareem to a big contract and win championships?

Because the money wasn't there to make championships a good enough investment to make. Revenue was primarily from ticket sales. That's not the case anymore. Kareem didn't win a title in LA until Magic Johnson got to LA, and that was via the draft.

 

[Denny Crane]

Because the money wasn't there to make championships a good enough investment to make. Revenue was primarily from ticket sales. That's not the case anymore.

I don't think that's true. The Blazers' championship generated extra revenues for the team for quite a few years afterward. Same is true for the Warriors and Sonics.

 

[PapaG]

I don't think that's true. The Blazers' championship generated extra revenues for the team for quite a few years afterward. Same is true for the Warriors and Sonics.

Yeah, but not game-changing money. Franchises weren't worth much before TV became heavily invested in the NBA. I understand your point, but the owners at that time didn't invest heavily into player salaries, and as pointed out already, you had to give up part of your future in order to sign a FA prior to the 1980 CBA.

 

[Denny Crane]

Yeah, but not game-changing money. Franchises weren't worth much before TV became heavily invested in the NBA. I understand your point, but the owners at that time didn't invest heavily into player salaries, and as pointed out already, you had to give up part of your future in order to sign a FA prior to the 1980 CBA.

I think Milwaukee traded Kareem because they wanted to control what they got for him instead of letting the commissioner decide.

Milwaukee got 4 players for him from a 30 win team. Hardly their future.

The Lakers won 5 championships with Kareem. That's what the future actually held.