Players who refuse to pass to Oden, as if on purpose

[Deebag]

Blake, Aldridge, Outlaw, and Frye.

Amirite?

This is why I hate seeing Oden come off the bench. Because usually it's at the same time as when Outlaw enters. And when Outlaw enters, he's a defensive and rebounding liability, which is usually a factor of why Oden gets into foul trouble. Outlaw is the one player who at a certain point in time while holding the ball, makes the decision of "should I go for it?" and goes for it no matter what.

Blake...I'm not sure why. On numerous occasions, I've seen Oden in the post in good position asking for the ball, and he just does not want to look at Oden. Don't know why. If he was a smart man, he should be dishing it to him as much as possible. He could be "that one guy that dumps it off to Oden" but just doesn't. Our future PG needs to know how to feed the big man the ball and Blake isn't that guy.

Aldridge. I love the man but there are times when he's in the post and draws the opposing center for help defense with Oden on the other side waiting for the ball, and instead of passing it to him for an easy dunk, he tries a Sheed-like fadeaway.

And don't even get me started on Frye.

Guys that I DO like seeing Oden play with are: Roy, Sergio, Rudy, and Batum. Which is pretty much the rest of our rotation.

 

[illmatic99]

Even Roy, to an extent, forces shots rather than pass inside to a rolling Oden. I've been preaching for the players in game threads over the last two weeks to pass him the ball, but they simply wave him off. It's getting a bit annoying, as the ONLY players who consistently look for GO are Rudy and Sergio.

My motto from now on: GOTDB.

Give Oden The Damn Ball.

 

[Deebag]

Thing with Roy is, I don't mind it. When he's taking bad shots, it's usually out of frustration when we're down on the scoreboard and no one else is stepping up. He's an all-star, so he has the luxury of taking some bad shots without getting too much flak, because he, like Kobe and a few others, are perfectly capable of making them and is smart about it (ie. will only do it when shot clock is running low, or when they notice there are bigs around the rim the clean up the mess). We can give him the benefit of a doubt. Travis, on the other hand, just tries too hard to pose as an all-star. It does a lot more bad than good for the team. I mean, I can appreciate the fact that he can make wild shots more often than others, but it doesn't mean it's a good shot especially when we have like 10 more seconds on the shot clock.

Something I really really really REALLY love about Batum is he will never take a bad shot. The reason he takes so few shots a game is because he only takes them in rhythm, and doesn't ever try to force it because he hasn't shot in a while. And it baffles me as to why he constantly gets punished for it, getting benched. Batum is not an offensive liability like many have talked about. He's one of the few that will actually drive in when he sees an open lane and his jumpshot is somewhat decent. He could easily be averaging 10 ppg if he really wanted to, but he knows his role and plays it well. Unfortunately, that role is always under 20 minutes despite being really important. I've hardly criticized Nate on his coaching job this season, but this is probably my biggest complaint. Batum does so much on the court that doesn't show up on the stat sheet, and all those intangibles are far more important to this team than Outlaw's below .500 jumpshots.

 

[Tince]

Maybe if everyone isn't passing him the ball, he's not getting good position. Or more likely because Oden isn't a solid post player yet.

In time he'll get better, and he'll get the ball more.

 

[Deebag]

There are moments in the game where it's fairly obvious he has good position. He's about 4ft from the rim, backing up against his defender, with his hand in the air, with no one in sight that is able to steal the ball.

Oh, and Oden is shooting .56%. He has more good games than bad ones. And with all the foul talk we discuss about Oden, we forget to talk about how he can get the other team in foul trouble easily as well. A lot of players simply give up and hack Oden when trying to defend him because they know they're beat. If they get in foul trouble, we'll get more freethrows.

 

[Tince]

There are moments in the game where it's fairly obvious he has good position. He's about 4ft from the rim, backing up against his defender, with his hand in the air, with no one in sight that is able to steal the ball.

Oh, and Oden is shooting .56%. He has more good games than bad ones. And with all the foul talk we discuss about Oden, we forget to talk about how he can get the other team in foul trouble easily as well. A lot of players simply give up and hack Oden when trying to defend him because they know they're beat. If they get in foul trouble, we'll get more freethrows.

FG% is a good stat, but it doesn't tell the story here. I'd like to know what his FG% is when he posts up; so subtract offensive rebound put-backs and plays where a perimeter player drives and creates for him. Then you have to factor in how many times he turns the ball over in those situations, as well as how often we score on the possession.

I used to work for a company where I could pull that information, but I don't know where to find it anymore.

 

[Natebishop3]

So here is my question, how important is Oden's development and his inclusion in the offense? So important that you would begin to trade players until you find some that will get him the ball? Is it the players fault? Is it Nate's fault? Do the Blazers expect him to be Joel Przybilla 2.0 (go into the post and try to offensive rebound while everyone shoots jumpers)?

 

[Tince]

So here is my question, how important is Oden's development and his inclusion in the offense? So important that you would begin to trade players until you find some that will get him the ball? Is it the players fault? Is it Nate's fault? Do the Blazers expect him to be Joel Przybilla 2.0 (go into the post and try to offensive rebound while everyone shoots jumpers)?

Those are great questions. I certainly have my opinion, but nobody on here really knows.

 

[Deebag]

FG% is a good stat, but it doesn't tell the story here. I'd like to know what his FG% is when he posts up; so subtract offensive rebound put-backs and plays where a perimeter player drives and creates for him. Then you have to factor in how many times he turns the ball over in those situations, as well as how often we score on the possession.

I used to work for a company where I could pull that information, but I don't know where to find it anymore.

Offensive rebound putbacks aren't automatic, so I don't see why you would take them away from his FG%. And one of the points I'm trying to make in this thread is that some players refuse to pass to Oden, even when he's open for an easy 100% dunk. We're all aware that Oden isn't yet the type of guy who can create his own shot. Hell he might never be. But already, in just his first season, he's a great presence in the middle that you can feed and get easy buckets out of and why that option isn't being utilized to the best of our advantage is what's mind boggling here. You mentioned to take away "plays where a perimeter player drives and creates for him", but that's exactly what I want to see. Roy/Oden has potential to be a pretty good combo. Probably not Kobe/Shaq like, but a consistent pick-and-roll between those two guys is something to look at.

 

[Tince]

Offensive rebound putbacks aren't automatic, so I don't see why you would take them away from his FG%. And one of the points I'm trying to make in this thread is that some players refuse to pass to Oden, even when he's open for an easy 100% dunk. We're all aware that Oden isn't yet the type of guy who can create his own shot. Hell he might never be. But already, in just his first season, he's a great presence in the middle that you can feed and get easy buckets out of and why that option isn't being utilized to the best of our advantage is what's mind boggling here. You mentioned to take away "plays where a perimeter player drives and creates for him", but that's exactly what I want to see. Roy/Oden has potential to be a pretty good combo. Probably not Kobe/Shaq like, but a consistent pick-and-roll between those two guys is something to look at.

You take it out because we are talking about feeding him the ball not offensive rebounds. If the team is only scoring 30% of the time when we post him up, then it doesn't matter that his FG% is 56%. If he is really helping us by scoring off of offensive rebounds, then that means, if anything, we should pass to him less. It's not like when Greg is standing under the hoop with nobody on him, Roy or Travis is jacking up some horrible shot. When he is open and puts himself in the position to receive a pass, he often gets it.

Your point about Greg getting other teams in foul trouble and us in the bonus is a great point, and a major strength of us. However, having watched every Blazer game this year, I think it's safe to say that Greg or the team, does not score at a high rate when we post him up.

 

[Deebag]

But you also have to take into account that occasionally we feed him and he'll try a move, miss, get his own board, and put it back in. He has that ability to chase down his own misses. It also doesn't take into account how many times Oden draws a shooting foul. He'll get hacked and not be able to finish, but he gets to go to the FT line, where he's been surprisingly not too shabby. They don't count as a FG attempt unless he and-1's it.

And I'm not saying that passing to Oden should be our absolute #1 option. He's not a consistent go-to guy, at least not yet. But there are situations where it's a LOT easier to pass it to him and see what he can do, rather than dribble around and settle for a contested jumpshot. We should frequently try to establish him in the paint in the beginning of games so we can tell if he's going to have a good game or not. We don't know what we'll get with him because he's a rookie still. Sometimes, we'll see a string of awkward looking hookshots that fall way short. Other times, he'll go 6/7 and frustrate the defender to death.

It's not like when Greg is standing under the hoop with nobody on him, Roy or Travis is jacking up some horrible shot. When he is open and puts himself in the position to receive a pass, he often gets it.

Not so sure about that. At least not with Travis. I've seen most of the games this season as well, and Travis definitely misses Oden a couple times for easy dunks. Travis needs to learn how to pass out of a jumpshot, as risky as they may be. When he jumps, defenders often run after him, leaving others open. And he usually does shoots his jumpshots off of pick-and-pops, which usually means there's a defensive switch, and that means a mismatch somewhere on the court.

 

[illmatic99]

It's not like when Greg is standing under the hoop with nobody on him, Roy or Travis is jacking up some horrible shot. When he is open and puts himself in the position to receive a pass, he often gets it.

You must not be watching the games then.

 

[shamelessblazer]

It should be Blake's job (and another thing Roy develops if he wants to be a superstar), entry passes. And it's another reason why Rudy should be playing PG for us (considering he runs the break, shoots, and has better court vision than Blake).

Drop Blake!

 

[oldmangrouch]

This is one of those cases where perception gets in the way of reality.

Blake is smart and unselfish, but he lacks the creativity on-the-fly to be a real PG.

This past season, Outlaw averaged 1 APG, LMA 1.9, and Zach Randolph 2.1. People don't like Zach, so he is defined as a "ballhog" and/or a "blackhole". People do like LMA and Outlaw, so they turn a blind eye to the fact that they are equally bad playmakers!

Bottom line: this is not a matter of "won't" pass the ball to Oden; it is a matter of them not being good passers!

NateBishop nailed it - if forcing the ball into Oden is the priority, get ready to trade half the rotation.

 

[Tince]

You must not be watching the games then.

I've watched every game this year and I have the credentials to be a basketball scout, so I would think I'm not totally clueless. You can disagree if you'd like.

 

[Tince]

But you also have to take into account that occasionally we feed him and he'll try a move, miss, get his own board, and put it back in. He has that ability to chase down his own misses. It also doesn't take into account how many times Oden draws a shooting foul.

That is why I said, what I really care about is the result of the possession when Greg is given the ball in the post. If he gets his own rebound, goes to the free throw line, or kicks it out for an open three, I would want to give him credit. I already said that I agree that Greg is the best a drawing fouls, even better than Roy, and he should be given credit for it.

I think there is a reason opposing coaches have greatly reduced the number of double teams Greg gets and why our coach and best players don't look at him as a viable option throughout the game. These are some of the brightest coaches and players in the league, and I'm seeing the same thing they do. Maybe we're all wrong and you guys are right.

 

[MARIS61]

Sergio gets him the ball whenever he's in good position to score immediately, just as he gets the ball to everyone else when they are in good position to score immediately.

Sergio is a real PG.

 

[LittleAlex]

That is why I said, what I really care about is the result of the possession when Greg is given the ball in the post. If he gets his own rebound, goes to the free throw line, or kicks it out for an open three, I would want to give him credit. I already said that I agree that Greg is the best a drawing fouls, even better than Roy, and he should be given credit for it.

I think there is a reason opposing coaches have greatly reduced the number of double teams Greg gets and why our coach and best players don't look at him as a viable option throughout the game. These are some of the brightest coaches and players in the league, and I'm seeing the same thing they do. Maybe we're all wrong and you guys are right.

It does seem like guys miss him alot when Oden rolls to the hoop after setting a pick. That IS something I have seen many times this season and it has mystified me greatly all year.

It is certainly possible that looks are deceiving and he really isn't as open as it appears. It just looks like an alleyoop dunk waiting to happen.

 

[Tince]

It does seem like guys miss him alot when Oden rolls to the hoop after setting a pick. That IS something I have seen many times this season and it has mystified me greatly all year.

It is certainly possible that looks are deceiving and he really isn't as open as it appears. It just looks like an alleyoop dunk waiting to happen.

In the preseason and after he returned from injury, he got a lot more chances on the pick and roll, but they often resulted in a travel or missed shot. The other issue seemed to be that when given a lob, Oden's knee isn't to the point where he could go up and get it.

I think cutting a few pounds and getting some strength back in his knee is going to really open up his ability to make those plays. He also is going to have to start his roll much earlier, he seems to pause and be a half step late, which would force him to get the ball in that 8' range.

 

[hasoos]

Maybe if everyone isn't passing him the ball, he's not getting good position. Or more likely because Oden isn't a solid post player yet.

In time he'll get better, and he'll get the ball more.

You know, when your under the hoop, alone, waving your arms, there isn't much better position to be in.

 

[hasoos]

Sergio gets him the ball whenever he's in good position to score immediately, just as he gets the ball to everyone else when they are in good position to score immediately.

Sergio is a real PG.

No he doesn't, Sergio misses him too. I will give you that he gets him passes more than other guards, but that is not saying a lot. If I had to pick a guard who actually looks for Oden and gets him the ball, his name is Rudy, not Rodriguez.

 

[cloudydays]

Sergio gets him the ball whenever he's in good position to score immediately, just as he gets the ball to everyone else when they are in good position to score immediately.

Sergio is a real PG.

Sergio is the worst post-entry passer on the team. He is decent off of the pick and roll, but he is horrible at throwing the ball into the post for Oden.

LMA looks for Oden out of that high-low set where LMA sits at the elbow and Oden posts up in the key.

 

[MARIS61]

You haven't a clue at all.

 

[BrianFromWA]

That is why I said, what I really care about is the result of the possession when Greg is given the ball in the post. If he gets his own rebound, goes to the free throw line, or kicks it out for an open three, I would want to give him credit. I already said that I agree that Greg is the best a drawing fouls, even better than Roy, and he should be given credit for it.

I think there is a reason opposing coaches have greatly reduced the number of double teams Greg gets and why our coach and best players don't look at him as a viable option throughout the game. These are some of the brightest coaches and players in the league, and I'm seeing the same thing they do. Maybe we're all wrong and you guys are right.

Your observation is right, imo your conclusions are wrong. I think that opposing coaches have reduced the number of double-teams Oden gets BECAUSE our coach and players don't look at him as a viable option. And you will not get me to say that Nate is the brightest coach in the league--he's not close (see: waffling on Batum starting game 1...not adjusting against Yao or Brooks in game 1...). If you're seeing the same thing that Nate and Blake see, and your conclusion aligns with theirs that Oden shouldn't get the ball, well then we disagree.

Oden's high this year in FGs was 14 in a game. He's had 8 games this year where he's attempted 10 or more. When he attempts 11 or more, he shoots 64%. 9 or more, he's at 61%. Compare that to Blake, who shoots 43% from 3 (which is great) in 4.8 attempts per game, but 43% from 2 (crap-filled) in 4.6 shots per game. Or Outlaw, who shoots 45% combined on 10.5 shots per game. Or Frye, who in his 11 minutes averages only 1 shot less than Oden does in 21 minutes, but at a 14% lower clip.

I'm not the smartest guy in the NBA. I'm not a scout or GM and I haven't coached anything that you'd think was worth it. I watch a lot of basketball, and if you think that splitting an average of 14 long-range jumpers per game among 3 players shooting at a combined 43% clip is better than giving more shots to your 7'1 center that's shooting 56% (and rising with increased shot attempts), then your credential of scout doesn't mean much to me--no offense. And if Nate or his players are saying that Greg doesn't deserve the ball more (and your proof is lack of double teams from other coaches?), then I'm saying they're not thinking intelligently about this either.

 

[Tince]

Your observation is right, imo your conclusions are wrong. I think that opposing coaches have reduced the number of double-teams Oden gets BECAUSE our coach and players don't look at him as a viable option. And you will not get me to say that Nate is the brightest coach in the league--he's not close (see: waffling on Batum starting game 1...not adjusting against Yao or Brooks in game 1...). If you're seeing the same thing that Nate and Blake see, and your conclusion aligns with theirs that Oden shouldn't get the ball, well then we disagree.

Oden's high this year in FGs was 14 in a game. He's had 8 games this year where he's attempted 10 or more. When he attempts 11 or more, he shoots 64%. 9 or more, he's at 61%. Compare that to Blake, who shoots 43% from 3 (which is great) in 4.8 attempts per game, but 43% from 2 (crap-filled) in 4.6 shots per game. Or Outlaw, who shoots 45% combined on 10.5 shots per game. Or Frye, who in his 11 minutes averages only 1 shot less than Oden does in 21 minutes, but at a 14% lower clip.

I'm not the smartest guy in the NBA. I'm not a scout or GM and I haven't coached anything that you'd think was worth it. I watch a lot of basketball, and if you think that splitting an average of 14 long-range jumpers per game among 3 players shooting at a combined 43% clip is better than giving more shots to your 7'1 center that's shooting 56% (and rising with increased shot attempts), then your credential of scout doesn't mean much to me--no offense. And if Nate or his players are saying that Greg doesn't deserve the ball more (and your proof is lack of double teams from other coaches?), then I'm saying they're not thinking intelligently about this either.

Even though I don't agree with everything you say, you have a nice breakdown. I do want to clear up something because it's clear you missed what I said earlier.

1) You went back to comparing percentages again, which goes back to my original argument. We are debating if we should feed Greg that ball in the post more. If I could double Greg's offensive rebounds that lead to dunks, I would be all for him getting more field goal attempts. I used to have access to a program that would allow me to break this down a simplistic level (it wouldn't cover everything we would need to know), but since I don't, I'm going to have to guess here. I imagine that 1/3 of Greg shots and put back rebounds and layups where he shoots 70-80%, so I'd love those attempts to go up, but that doesn't have to do with people passing him the ball. I would also guess another 1/3 of his attempts come from penetration and passes to him on the low block, and he's shooting around 55-65%. That leave the rest of his shots being post ups were I would guess he is shooting 35-45%. This would roughly average out to 56%. So when we are talking about getting him the ball for more of those 35-45% attempts, it doesn't make much sense to me. As I've said over and over, this percentage argument doesn't tell the entire story and he wouldn't be given credit for fouls drawn, free throws made, and providing scoring opportunities for others (though he has the 2nd lowest ast/to ratio per 48 minutes on the team, but I would guess that's due to our offense and him being in the same role as Joel).

2) My citing of Nate, Roy, Blake, etc seemingly getting him the ball less than some of you think he should, is not the "proof" of my argument. Like I said, I don't have to stats to prove one way or the other, I'm just going off of my observation. The same holds true for the lack of double teams he sees. No coach would double team a guy in the post that he felt was going to only score less than half the time in a true post up situation. I was just simply pointing out that there is a chance all these experts know what they're doing and they're seeing something we don't. It's possible my reason for all this is totally wrong, but I would venture a guess that there is a good reason for the lack of attempts.

 

[MARIS61]

To say ANYONE on this team is intentionally preventing Greg from opportunities to posterize our opponents is patently absurd.

I'd love to hear what you think their motivation for doing so would be.

 

[cloudydays]

You haven't a clue at all.

Care to elaborate?

[video=youtube;Do8tTxApcrI]"]

1:30 of that video, LMA dumps it into Oden for the and 1. We saw that set a lot earlier in the year, but Portland has gone away from it recently.

 

[Crimson the Cat]

I didn't notice Greg being shut out of the offense. I thought he played the role, more-or-less, that he has played most of the season. He and Brandon actually were the only players that kept with the roles that got them there.

 

[Tince]

So Oden only got 3 post up opportunities tonight, but that is also one for every four minutes he was on the floor. He went 0-2, and on the one post-up he pass it out, we didn't score either. Too small of a sample to make any determination off of, but it will be interesting to watch this going forward. He is going to have a 6" advantage on Chuck Hayes and if there were ever a time to feed him the ball, this situation is it!

 

[Natebishop3]

The one major advantage that Greg has is his size. Most centers just aren't big enough to hold him. The problem, is that Greg doesn't have much of an offensive game outside of dunking. When he develops a decent hook, he'll be unstoppable.