Politics Please say rock bottom is getting close

[crandc]

So it's OK to trivialize women and LGBTQ rights because Nancy Pelosi.

 

[Rastapopoulos]

Well, bad politicians, yes. Not even all Republicans did this. If you seriously believe that politicians are by nature irredeemable then why vote at all?

Here's a good description of the epitome of modern Republican politicians:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/08/magazine/mark-meadows-trump-prosecution.html

 

[Rastapopoulos]

If the Dems lose to Trump it means they don't suck but we should also recognize the importance of voting?

What is the value of voting? We want Democracy because the alternatives are worse, and it's (supposedly) a check on autocracy. But if people vote for autocrats, then it isn't.

Voting should be like serving on a jury. The point is not just to say whatever you feel - "I don't like that guy's face/he looks gay/he's a minority, so I vote guilty! I don't have to consider the evidence because I'm entitled to my opinion!" - the point is to take seriously your civic duty and give the vote that is CORRECT.

Now, I guess it's possible that MAGAheads are so addled that they genuinely believe they're doing that, but excusing them for claiming that TRUMP, with all we know about him, would be a good leader (or even that he's a good Christian), is like someone genuinely defending themselves from murder by saying "sure I know that guns kill, and that this gun had bullets in it, but I sincerely believed that it wouldn't kill!"

It's interesting that people like Aristotle and Plato, who lived in the original democracy of Athens were harshly critical of it exactly because the masses are so easily swayed by persuasive psychopaths.

Seems like you want people to vote to avoid Trump but also fuck them because they're terrible? Do I have that right?

[Spouts gibberish] "do I have that right?"

Blame everyone but the Democratic party themselves. ThatI'll go over well...

I'll blame the Democratic party for all kinds of things, but Republicans voting for a candidate who's objectively worse for them and for the country than the Democratic alternative is not one of them.

 

[crandc]

https://www.dailykos.com/stories/20...n=front_page&pm_source=trending&pm_medium=web

This is rich. A Canadian family of eight decided to leave Canada because the gays have rights and move to a Christian country, Russia. Two friendly Russian officials told them they would get help resettling and be given a farm to work.

They sold all they had and raised money on social media. When they arrived all their assets were confiscated because they exceeded maximum amount of money that can be brought into Russia. The farm never materialized and helpful officials disappeared. They are trying to get their money back but never bothered to learn Russian and banks don't have English speaking officers. They can't get jobs because they don't speak Russian. So they are penniless immigrants who don't speak the language wanting government handout. They also learned Russia is a very poor country and most homes lack such niceties as indoor plumbing.

They want to return, apparently putting up with the gays to have flush toilets, but to leave they have to post a bond and they have no money.

Local newspaper interviewed the wife, expecting she would praise the godly country but she described unhappiness. Christian Russia, unlike godless Canada, died not have free speech and her husband, not wanting to fall out a window, hastily explained his wife had mis-spoken.
.

 

[barfo]

My point is some people don't feel like they have anything to lose and no amount of scolding is going to change that. That playbook simply doesn't work and it's playing the clock, and not playing the win. Even now, Biden thinks young people have no choice but to vote for him instead of changing his policies for the better.

If only young people voted, then Biden would surely align his policies very precisely to what young people want.
Young people aren't the only voters, though (in fact they are pretty undependable voters historically), so Biden has to triangulate his policies such that he puts together a coalition that gets enough votes to win.

I agree that there will always be corruption, but this is unprecedented.

I don't agree that it is unprecedented. Or maybe we just disagree on the definition of corruption.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Okay, what should we do about it?

Accept that change will be slow and painful, and do the work necessary to convince our fellow citizens to take a tiny step forward. Then do it again, and again, and again.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

What is the value of voting? We want Democracy because the alternatives are worse, and it's (supposedly) a check on autocracy. But if people vote for autocrats, then it isn't.

Agreed.

Voting should be like serving on a jury. The point is not just to say whatever you feel - "I don't like that guy's face/he looks gay/he's a minority, so I vote guilty! I don't have to consider the evidence because I'm entitled to my opinion!" - the point is to take seriously your civic duty and give the vote that is CORRECT.

You think your vote is correct. They think their vote is correct. Whatever shall you do? That's why it's an individual's right to vote. It sounds like you're advocating for the same thing Republican's do which is my way or the highway. Or don't let them vote at all because I don't agree.

Now, I guess it's possible that MAGAheads are so addled that they genuinely believe they're doing that, but excusing them for claiming that TRUMP, with all we know about him, would be a good leader (or even that he's a good Christian), is like someone genuinely defending themselves from murder by saying "sure I know that guns kill, and that this gun had bullets in it, but I sincerely believed that it wouldn't kill!"

It's interesting that people like Aristotle and Plato, who lived in the original democracy of Athens were harshly critical of it exactly because the masses are so easily swayed by persuasive psychopaths.

I think putting it squarely on them is unfair. Are there some racists and bigots in the mix, absolutely. Are there people who are stuck in the information bubble that is Fox News? Yes. We have a deficit of information and also, how many people can really follow along when they're trying to take care of their families and make ends meet?

[Spouts gibberish] "do I have that right?"

As I thought, you can't address the point.

I'll blame the Democratic party for all kinds of things, but Republicans voting for a candidate who's objectively worse for them and for the country than the Democratic alternative is not one of them.

You don't blame the Democratic party for losing to a brain dead psychopath that you think is such an awful candidate? Sounds like you should re-assess many things in your life then. How about if the Democratic party actually offered a platform people could get behind. As Biden even told us what he's going to do in his second term? No, he hasn't. Expecting people to pick you by default is exactly why the Democratic party is so trash. You do know that the largest voting block in America is the block that doesn't vote, right? You're welcome to be a shill of the Democratic party, but you don't need to talk to me about it.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

If only young people voted, then Biden would surely align his policies very precisely to what young people want.
Young people aren't the only voters, though (in fact they are pretty undependable voters historically), so Biden has to triangulate his policies such that he puts together a coalition that gets enough votes to win.

He literally won because of the youth vote as well as the AA women. He hasn't even put forth what he wants to accomplish in his second term. At some point the party has to take responsibility rather than point to the other side and keep saying this is the most important election of our lifetimes. It might be, but the same old trick is tired and it has fallen on deaf ears. Maybe he should have done better on trying to accomplish is agenda.

I don't agree that it is unprecedented. Or maybe we just disagree on the definition of corruption.

barfo

It all depends where you're coming. I wouldn't expect an out of touch guy like Bill Maher to speak on the issues that are plaguing the American people. I don't know your demo and what's going on in your life. You might be very content. Things might be working out well, especially if you're older. I know those under 40 are very dissatisfied with the current state of the country and have lost hope. I can't say I blame them.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Accept that change will be slow and painful, and do the work necessary to convince our fellow citizens to take a tiny step forward. Then do it again, and again, and again.

barfo

You have to give people hope. If you don't offer it, people lose the vision and will no longer follow. It's on both parties to show them that path. Talking down to voters and saying they have no morals to get them to vote for you isn't going to get it done.

 

[barfo]

He literally won because of the youth vote as well as the AA women.

And because of all the other people who voted for him. It wasn't just youth and black women who voted for Biden. Yes, they were important parts of his coalition, but not the only parts by a long shot. Voters under 30 were 17% of Biden's votes. Blacks were 19%.

He hasn't even put forth what he wants to accomplish in his second term.

Campaign hasn't really started yet. There's plenty of time for that.

At some point the party has to take responsibility rather than point to the other side and keep saying this is the most important election of our lifetimes. It might be, but the same old trick is tired and it has fallen on deaf ears. Maybe he should have done better on trying to accomplish is agenda.

Agreed, his republican friends in congress are doing everything they can to help him succeed, it's just a lack of effort on his part.

It all depends where you're coming. I wouldn't expect an out of touch guy like Bill Maher to speak on the issues that are plaguing the American people. I don't know your demo and what's going on in your life. You might be very content. Things might be working out well, especially if you're older. I know those under 40 are very dissatisfied with the current state of the country and have lost hope. I can't say I blame them.

You are talking about feelings rather than facts, though. The level of corruption at any given time is a fact, not a feeling. I don't know what Bill Maher has to do with anything. I agree that young people are dissatisfied.

barfo

 

[barfo]

You have to give people hope. If you don't offer it, people lose the vision and will no longer follow. It's on both parties to show them that path. Talking down to voters and saying they have no morals to get them to vote for you isn't going to get it done.

I don't think Joe Biden is telling voters they have no morals. I agree about the need to give people hope. But it's always bullshit to say 'elect me and I'll fix everything'.

barfo

 

[SlyPokerDog]

 

[Sheldon Shape]

I don't think Joe Biden is telling voters they have no morals. I agree about the need to give people hope. But it's always bullshit to say 'elect me and I'll fix everything'.

barfo

Joe is not, you're right. CNN and MSNBC who support Joe, do though. I agree it's bullshit to say that, but you have to give people your vision on how to better the country.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

And because of all the other people who voted for him. It wasn't just youth and black women who voted for Biden. Yes, they were important parts of his coalition, but not the only parts by a long shot. Voters under 30 were 17% of Biden's votes. Blacks were 19%.

Agreed, but the party always had everyone else and they'll likely have them again this time. It's those other segments you can't count on. That's why you need to speak to them more to get them to come out. That won't happen the same way this time.

Campaign hasn't really started yet. There's plenty of time for that.

Sure.

Agreed, his republican friends in congress are doing everything they can to help him succeed, it's just a lack of effort on his part.

I didn't know Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema were Republicans?

You are talking about feelings rather than facts, though. The level of corruption at any given time is a fact, not a feeling. I don't know what Bill Maher has to do with anything. I agree that young people are dissatisfied.

barfo

People vote on feelings. That's the thing. But the corruption in the country is not feeling, it's facts. When the richest nation in world history just had a 12% spike in homelessness. Don't have affordable healthcare or education. Those aren't feelings. Those are facts.

 

[Kano John]

Agreed, but the party always had everyone else and they'll likely have them again this time. It's those other segments you can't count on. That's why you need to speak to them more to get them to come out. That won't happen the same way this time.



Sure.




I didn't know Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema were Republicans?



People vote on feelings. That's the thing. But the corruption in the country is not feeling, it's facts. When the richest nation in world history just had a 12% spike in homelessness. Don't have affordable healthcare or education. Those aren't feelings. Those are facts.

The affordable care act has insured over 40 million people so far. The best thing about it is that ACA prohibits Insurance companies from denying insurance due to pre existing conditions. It's amazing to me that many red states still refuse to implement it in their state despite the profound need.

 

[barfo]

I didn't know Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema were Republicans?

Then you weren't paying attention.

People vote on feelings. That's the thing. But the corruption in the country is not feeling, it's facts. When the richest nation in world history just had a 12% spike in homelessness. Don't have affordable healthcare or education. Those aren't feelings. Those are facts.

Those may be facts, but I'm not so sure it is corruption. Unless, again, you are using a very different definition of corruption.

barfo

 

[barfo]

Agreed, but the party always had everyone else and they'll likely have them again this time. It's those other segments you can't count on. That's why you need to speak to them more to get them to come out. That won't happen the same way this time.

Assuming votes are in the bag is how you lose elections. And what you do to attract one set of voters has the potential to alienate another set of voters.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

The affordable care act has insured over 40 million people so far. The best thing about it is that ACA prohibits Insurance companies from denying insurance due to pre existing conditions. It's amazing to me that many red states still refuse to implement it in their state despite the profound need.

Totally agreed. It was a huge leap forward. Not what progressives like me wanted, but we can't deny it was a great thing at the time. Unfortunately, it's people in red states with the most medical care debt in the country because of what you just pointed out. I don't think most people know they're voting against their best interests. We don't have a media that informs its public.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Then you weren't paying attention.

Joe could have put pressure on them, Barfo. To suggest Biden couldn't actually do anything about it is asinine. Again, that notion comes from the mainstream media. There's always a foil in the Democratic party. Why is that? Because their donors are the same as the Republicans.

Those may be facts, but I'm not so sure it is corruption. Unless, again, you are using a very different definition of corruption.

barfo

I don't know how you couldn't call that corruption. The people at the top fund the politicians and keep them from actually changing anything. You're free to think otherwise though I suppose.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Assuming votes are in the bag is how you lose elections. And what you do to attract one set of voters has the potential to alienate another set of voters.

barfo

Who is the genocide on Gaza appealing to? Donors maybe, but not voters. It's not as complicated as you make it. FDR taxed the shit out of the rich and he kept getting re-elected. Take care of the people and they'll vote for you. It's not hard.

 

[Kano John]

Totally agreed. It was a huge leap forward. Not what progressives like me wanted, but we can't deny it was a great thing at the time. Unfortunately, it's people in red states with the most medical care debt in the country because of what you just pointed out. I don't think most people know they're voting against their best interests. We don't have a media that informs its public.

Agreed - Sad to me that Trump ran on a platform of repeal and replace and yet after 4 years in office and 3 years out of office we have yet to see any hint of a feasible alternative from him or any Republican in Congress. What's especially sad (and ironic) is how many people who desperately need affordable health care will still vote for Trump and his minions.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

Agreed - Sad to me that Trump ran on a platform of repeal and replace and yet after 4 years in office and 3 years out of office we have yet to see any hint of a feasible alternative from him or any Republican in Congress. What's especially sad (and ironic) is how many people who desperately need affordable health care will still vote for Trump and his minions.

I agree. It's super sad. Especially the older demographic who gets brainwashed by conservative media. I've seen it close up. You know who used to go on Fox News and win every audience over? Bernie Sanders. Trump wouldn't exist if Bernie was the candidate. Remember, many Obama and Bernie voters went to Trump in '16.

 

[barfo]

Joe could have put pressure on them, Barfo.

How? What leverage did he have over them?

To suggest Biden couldn't actually do anything about it is asinine. Again, that notion comes from the mainstream media.

No, that notion comes from the realization that Manchin and Sinema are individuals who simply don't care about the same things Biden does, and don't want or need Biden's approval or support or money or anything else from him.

I don't know how you couldn't call that corruption. The people at the top fund the politicians and keep them from actually changing anything.

I'd say that's not corruption, that's the American system of government and campaign funding. I'd say the rules desperately need reform, but I don't think it's corruption if they are playing by the rules.

barfo

 

[Sheldon Shape]

How? What leverage did he have over them?

Manchin's daughter was under investigation. The administration gave his wife a job. He had absolute leverage. I know it's not something mainstream media shared. I'll let you dig into the rest.

No, that notion comes from the realization that Manchin and Sinema are individuals who simply don't care about the same things Biden does, and don't want or need Biden's approval or support or money or anything else from him.

Lmao the same Biden who threw more black people in prison than anyone and made it so you can't lose your student debt through bankruptcy? He's been a right winger all his career.

I'd say that's not corruption, that's the American system of government and campaign funding. I'd say the rules desperately need reform, but I don't think it's corruption if they are playing by the rules.

barfo

Bribery by definition is corruption. But it's legal. By those standards you can't call Russia or China corrupt. That's out of touch and we will always disagree.

 

[barfo]

Who is the genocide on Gaza appealing to? Donors maybe, but not voters.

There are quite a large number of pro-Israel, anti-Palestine voters. Probably many fewer than a few months ago, but still quite substantial.

It's not as complicated as you make it. FDR taxed the shit out of the rich and he kept getting re-elected. Take care of the people and they'll vote for you. It's not hard.

It's not as conspiratorial/corrupt as you make it. FDR had huge majorities in congress. Biden doesn't.

barfo

 

[Kano John]

There are quite a large number of pro-Israel, anti-Palestine voters. Probably many fewer than a few months ago, but still quite substantial.



It's not as conspiratorial/corrupt as you make it. FDR had huge majorities in congress. Biden doesn't.

barfo

One of the issues that Republicans are harping about is the Federal deficit. The deficit was made worse in 2017 with the big Trump/Republican tax breaks. Watch what they say next year when the tax breaks are due to expire.
When 2025 draws to a close, so will many of the sweeping Trump-era GOP tax breaks established by the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) of 2017.

 

[Phatguysrule]

One of the issues that Republicans are harping about is the Federal deficit. The deficit was made worse in 2017 with the big Trump/Republican tax breaks. Watch what they say next year when the tax breaks are due to expire.
When 2025 draws to a close, so will many of the sweeping Trump-era GOP tax breaks established by the Tax Cuts and Jobs Act (TCJA) of 2017.

Aren't the tax cuts for businesses permanent while the tax breaks for individuals are expiring?

 

[Kano John]

Aren't the tax cuts for businesses permanent while the tax breaks for individuals are expiring?

Some of the corporate cuts were but not all. No idea how many $$ are involved.

 

[Sheldon Shape]

There are quite a large number of pro-Israel, anti-Palestine voters. Probably many fewer than a few months ago, but still quite substantial.

It's not 50/50, dude. Take a look at the polling. And then he said out loud that he's a Zionist. He's going to get his ass handed to him in Michigan and it won't be anyone's fault but his own, no matter what you say differently.

It's not as conspiratorial/corrupt as you make it. FDR had huge majorities in congress. Biden doesn't.

barfo

Oh, you're one of those. Biden can't do anything about anything because of the boogeyman that is Republicans. Like Obama couldn't do anything about abortion, but didn't because he and the party wanted to fundraise off of it. Sure thing. You're giving more reasons as to why the entire system needs to be uprooted and turned upside down.

 

[barfo]

Manchin's daughter was under investigation. The administration gave his wife a job. He had absolute leverage. I know it's not something mainstream media shared. I'll let you dig into the rest.

Right, Joe could have influenced the Justice department in that investigation. That certainly wouldn't have backfired in any way.
It's an odd suggestion from someone who is concerned about corruption, isn't it?

As for Manchin's wife, I would assume that she got the job in an attempt to influence Joe M. It obviously didn't work. What more could have been done (legally)?

Lmao the same Biden who threw more black people in prison than anyone and made it so you can't lose your student debt through bankruptcy? He's been a right winger all his career.

He's been a politician his entire career, no doubt.

Bribery by definition is corruption. But it's legal. By those standards you can't call Russia or China corrupt. That's out of touch and we will always disagree.

That's fine. I don't think we disagree about reality on this, just about what word to use to describe it.

barfo