Poll: Holmgren vs. Banchero

[KSF-ERIC]

I wouldn't draft Chet I would find his highest bidder and sell him off if Jabari and Paolo were already taken. Chet and Nurk are a bad fit defensively because both guys move their feet slowly, not for an old school big but definitely to play together in today's game. So yeah, we need a modern PF to go with Nurk and although Chet stretches the floor on offense his defensive game is predicated on length and timing which would be fine with an ultra athletic C or a really solid athlete and strong PF. Chet has a really interesting set of skills, talents and big time deficits.

Jabari is my first choice and Paolo is the only other choice I would make and then I'd shop our pick.

Then trade Nurk and get the PF that fits Chet. If Chet is the best player, take him.

 

[blazerkor]

Then trade Nurk and get the PF that fits Chet. If Chet is the best player, take him.

We would let Nurk walk or get very little for him in a sign and trade but I get what you're saying. If you think that Chet is the bigger difference maker out of him and Nurk, you're totally right that you take Chet and get whoever makes sense with him instead of sticking with Nurk who you view as less of a positive impact. Personally, especially with Chauncey as the head coach I would like everyone on the team to be extremely mobile but you can't always get what you want. Unless of course someone values Chet much higher than we do and then we cash him in for pieces that fit with what we have and keep Nurk's value.

Anyway I cut it, I would take Jabari ahead of either Chet or Paolo... both Chet and Paolo are better at putting the ball on the floor and facilitating offense and Chet is obviously the better rim protector but Jabari is the best athlete of the three, the best overall defender of the three, the best shooter of the three and I think him and Chet are about even at finishing at the rim... oh and he seems to have the best timing as a rebounder out of the three. If we end up in the top 4 I think it would be worth guaranteeing Chicago the pick so we could trade a future lottery protected first to get to Jabari if someone else is looking to get him before us. I especially think Jabari fits the best in our system with Dame, Ant, Grant (assuming we trade the Pels pick for him) and Nurk with two of the best bench players we've had in a long time in Hart and Nas plus whatever else we can get in free agency and trades. But unfortunately Jabari isn't part of this thread.

 

[Predator]

Holmgren, and likewise (told you they were divisive).

Doesn’t seem that divisive when 2/3rds want Banchero and 1/3 want Holmgren.

 

[Predator]

Banchero has the highest ceiling in the draft. Only player with a chance to be a superstar.

Oddly enough, there was a ringer video or espn or something, where an NBA GM (or front office person) said Jabari Davis best comp is Tobias Harris.

 

[Predator]

Anyone thinking of drafting Holmgren has probably looked with interest at what Cleveland did with Evan Mobley.

Why? Holmgren and Mobley aren’t even close to similar. This is about the equivalent of ppl who compare Zach Collins to Chet.

Mobley is much bigger, much more athletic and much more agile. And not a hunch back.

 

[Predator]

Also, I am pro Chet *for this team* because I think he’s most helpful. Paolo is best, but not for this team.

If I had #1 pick and was drafting BPA - Paolo.
If I’m drafting best fit - Chet.

 

[MickZagger]

Okay, for the Chet naysayers, at what pick would be acceptable for us to draft him?

 

[Boise Blazer]

While I'm not yet either pro nor anti Chet it would be hard to pass on him at 5

 

[blazerkor]

Okay, for the Chet naysayers, at what pick would be acceptable for us to draft him?

I don't think it would be acceptable for us to draft him. I think he has a lot of value but not next to Nurk and I wouldn't choose to have Nurk walk or get very little in return for him in a sign and trade to get what Chet brings. So if Jabari and Paolo are gone when we pick I would simply find out who liked Chet or maybe it's Jaden the most and get the most I could for them. Neither one of those guys are going to make us better as much as what we could get in return for them; Chet because he's a bad fit next to Nurk and Jaden because he'd be playing behind Dame and Ant.

If we end up with a new GM who doesn't care about Dame, then that GM will likely trade Dame for the best young established player possible and picks. At that point I'd expect Nurk to walk and I'd have a hard time knowing who I'd want out of Paolo, Jabari and Chet but if we could get Duren as well in the draft then I'd want Chet and Duren.

We're just not like a normal lottery team. We don't get to take the BPA who has the most potential. We need a guy or guys that will translate into wins immediately. We have to worry about fit because our stated mission is to win a championship as soon as possible with Dame leading the way. We're also a playoff team that was derailed by injury. So fit has to matter to us. I may be wrong and Chet's lack of foot speed is an illusion but I don't think so. He's the least mobile big in the lotto. We can't put that with Nurk and we can't get fair value for Nurk because he's a UFA.

 

[KSF-ERIC]

I don't think it would be acceptable for us to draft him. I think he has a lot of value but not next to Nurk and I wouldn't choose to have Nurk walk or get very little in return for him in a sign and trade to get what Chet brings. So if Jabari and Paolo are gone when we pick I would simply find out who liked Chet or maybe it's Jaden the most and get the most I could for them. Neither one of those guys are going to make us better as much as what we could get in return for them; Chet because he's a bad fit next to Nurk and Jaden because he'd be playing behind Dame and Ant.

If we end up with a new GM who doesn't care about Dame, then that GM will likely trade Dame for the best young established player possible and picks. At that point I'd expect Nurk to walk and I'd have a hard time knowing who I'd want out of Paolo, Jabari and Chet but if we could get Duren as well in the draft then I'd want Chet and Duren.

We're just not like a normal lottery team. We don't get to take the BPA who has the most potential. We need a guy or guys that will translate into wins immediately. We have to worry about fit because our stated mission is to win a championship as soon as possible with Dame leading the way. We're also a playoff team that was derailed by injury. So fit has to matter to us. I may be wrong and Chet's lack of foot speed is an illusion but I don't think so. He's the least mobile big in the lotto. We can't put that with Nurk and we can't get fair value for Nurk because he's a UFA.

I disagree that if the player can’t help us win a title next year, we should pass on him. Dame isn’t about to retire. He has 5, 6, maybe 7 years left in his career. If there’s a player who will be an All Star in 2 years with superstar potential, you take him. We are not in a rush and Dame has said so himself. We have time.

 

[Mediocre Man]

Okay, for the Chet naysayers, at what pick would be acceptable for us to draft him?

Outside the lottery. Even then, yeesh

 

[PDXFonz]

Chet Holmgren = Slenderman

 

[Predator]

Okay, for the Chet naysayers, at what pick would be acceptable for us to draft him?

I would take him at #1, with some strong hesitancy.

At 3, it’s an easy call for me.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

These are the starting 4s in the west:

- Crowder/Cam Johnson
- JJJ
- Draymond
- Finney-Smith
- Bogdanovic
- Porter Jr.
- Vanderbilt
- Kawhi
- Zion
- Keldon Johnson
- Lebron
- Barnes
- Bazley
- Wood

I can see almost every single one of those guys being able to blow past him if he's guarding them in space on the perimeter.

I would love to see those guys try to score at the rim after "blowing by" Chet. I bet most get swatted from behind.

 

[PtldPlatypus]

Also, I am pro Chet *for this team* because I think he’s most helpful. Paolo is best, but not for this team.

If I had #1 pick and was drafting BPA - Paolo.
If I’m drafting best fit - Chet.

Wow. I see it precisely the opposite.

 

[Predator]

Wow. I see it precisely the opposite.

This team needs defense more than anything.
And I’m of the opinion that Chet will be fine defensively even at the 4 spot - which could be heavily debated. His length at that spot will allow him to content shots while giving more room so he won’t get blown by and if he does… his length will allow him to block a lot of shots still. And he’s not THAT slow/clunky.

Once again, that could be a really bad take on my end so I can easily see why you and others would see it differently. And if I’m wrong yes it would be disastrous. Lol

 

[blazerkor]

I would love to see those guys try to score at the rim after "blowing by" Chet. I bet most get swatted from behind.

That's assuming that what he did against much slower guys than the ones listed is effective in the NBA. The game will be a lot faster and Chet won't so the savvy he positioned himself with that left him within range to block slower jumpers but still recover to beat guys to the rim with his length just won't be the same formula, I'm not saying there's no way he can make it work in the NBA because I don't know that for sure, it just seems like a much tougher task. The guy has both a foot speed and strength deficit that can't just be ignored.

I really think he has to have the correct personnel playing with him down low in order to really capitalize on his strengths defensively and I don't think Nurk is that guy. If you have the great thing that Chet does as monumental game changers then you draft him and find someone different than Nurk to pair him with in our starting lineup. If you do the math and the benefits of Chet plus the benefits of who we'd realistically be replacing Nurk with are less than the benefits of whoever we would draft instead of Chet, with Nurk then you draft the other guy. If you think Chet is going to be an all nba player then you draft him and figure out the fit later.

 

[Pinwheel1]

"Ivey averaged 17.3 points, 4.9 rebounds and 3.1 assists per game and was named to The Associated Press All-America second team.

He joined Duke's Paolo Banchero as the only players this season with 600 points, 175 rebounds, 100 assists, 30 steals and 20 blocked shots"

I am not a stats fanatic, but those stats I like.

 

[TBpup]

"Ivey averaged 17.3 points, 4.9 rebounds and 3.1 assists per game and was named to The Associated Press All-America second team.

He joined Duke's Paolo Banchero as the only players this season with 600 points, 175 rebounds, 100 assists, 30 steals and 20 blocked shots"

I am not a stats fanatic, but those stats I like.

First Team:
Tshiebwe (Kentucky)
Davis (Wisconsin)
Agbaji (Kansas)
Cockburn (Illinois)
Murray (Iowa)

Second Team:
Smith (Auburn)
Timme (Gonzaga)
Ivey (Purdue)
Mathurin (Arizona)
Holmgren (Gonzaga)

Third Team:
Banchero (Duke)
Liddell (Ohio State)
Gillespie (Villanova)
Kessler (Auburn)
Akinjo (Baylor)
Notae (Arkansas)

 

[BonesJones]

I don't think it would be acceptable for us to draft him. I think he has a lot of value but not next to Nurk and I wouldn't choose to have Nurk walk or get very little in return for him in a sign and trade to get what Chet brings. So if Jabari and Paolo are gone when we pick I would simply find out who liked Chet or maybe it's Jaden the most and get the most I could for them. Neither one of those guys are going to make us better as much as what we could get in return for them; Chet because he's a bad fit next to Nurk and Jaden because he'd be playing behind Dame and Ant.

If we end up with a new GM who doesn't care about Dame, then that GM will likely trade Dame for the best young established player possible and picks. At that point I'd expect Nurk to walk and I'd have a hard time knowing who I'd want out of Paolo, Jabari and Chet but if we could get Duren as well in the draft then I'd want Chet and Duren.

We're just not like a normal lottery team. We don't get to take the BPA who has the most potential. We need a guy or guys that will translate into wins immediately. We have to worry about fit because our stated mission is to win a championship as soon as possible with Dame leading the way. We're also a playoff team that was derailed by injury. So fit has to matter to us. I may be wrong and Chet's lack of foot speed is an illusion but I don't think so. He's the least mobile big in the lotto. We can't put that with Nurk and we can't get fair value for Nurk because he's a UFA.

Unacceptable to draft Chet and keep Nurk? Immobile? The guy can defend on the perimeter. He switches his hips well, has much better foot speed than you give him credit for, and has the length where you're not going to get him out of position with hesitations or pump fakes if he's playing smart. I don't think Jabari or Paolo are quicker laterally than him.

 

[BonesJones]

Why? Holmgren and Mobley aren’t even close to similar. This is about the equivalent of ppl who compare Zach Collins to Chet.

Mobley is much bigger, much more athletic and much more agile. And not a hunch back.

Bigger as in stronger? He's still relatively skinny and Cleveland uses him defensively in the same way we'd need to use Chet at PF to maximize him. I disagree with Mobley being "much more agile".

 

[BonesJones]

We would let Nurk walk or get very little for him in a sign and trade but I get what you're saying. If you think that Chet is the bigger difference maker out of him and Nurk, you're totally right that you take Chet and get whoever makes sense with him instead of sticking with Nurk who you view as less of a positive impact. Personally, especially with Chauncey as the head coach I would like everyone on the team to be extremely mobile but you can't always get what you want. Unless of course someone values Chet much higher than we do and then we cash him in for pieces that fit with what we have and keep Nurk's value.

Anyway I cut it, I would take Jabari ahead of either Chet or Paolo... both Chet and Paolo are better at putting the ball on the floor and facilitating offense and Chet is obviously the better rim protector but Jabari is the best athlete of the three, the best overall defender of the three, the best shooter of the three and I think him and Chet are about even at finishing at the rim... oh and he seems to have the best timing as a rebounder out of the three. If we end up in the top 4 I think it would be worth guaranteeing Chicago the pick so we could trade a future lottery protected first to get to Jabari if someone else is looking to get him before us. I especially think Jabari fits the best in our system with Dame, Ant, Grant (assuming we trade the Pels pick for him) and Nurk with two of the best bench players we've had in a long time in Hart and Nas plus whatever else we can get in free agency and trades. But unfortunately Jabari isn't part of this thread.

I dint see Jabari as a noticeably better athlete than the other two. He has high, somewhat stiff hips and dkesnt have a remarkable first step whatsoever. The guy really struggled to get by a set defender off the dribble all season long. He's not a remarkable leaper either.

He's also not a better overall defender than Chet. He's solid on the perimeter but doesn't protect the rim at all and isn't noticeably better when switched onto guards.

Chet is a MUCH better finisher than Jabari. Chet shot 80% (80/100) in the halfcourt on non post-ups. I dont have a stat for Jabari but I watched many Auburn games and he struggled around the rim and only shot 43.5% from 2.

 

[blazerkor]

Unacceptable to draft Chet and keep Nurk? Immobile? The guy can defend on the perimeter. He switches his hips well, has much better foot speed than you give him credit for, and has the length where you're not going to get him out of position with hesitations or pump fakes if he's playing smart. I don't think Jabari or Paolo are quicker laterally than him.

I put in bold the areas where we disagree. The more video I watch of Chet the more glaringly obvious his slow feet are. He's really smart so he gives guys a ton of room on the perimeter because if they pull up even though he's not right on them they still get their shot blocked. At the same time even though he gives himself that room, he still gets blown by a lot even by bigs who he's covering out there. He is able to recover using his length and he does move his feet really efficiently. I just don't see how these tricks keep working at the NBA level. I think when he gives guys with higher release points and quicker releases that space their shots won't get blocked and I think when he gets blown by which will happen far more in the NBA than it did in the WCC and it happened in WCC play a lot, he won't be able to make up for his slow feet with his insane length and get those recovery blocks that we've all been impressed with. He's really smart and he definitely moves the right way, so maybe I'm wrong and his fundamentals will make up for his lack of foot speed but again, we really disagree if you think he has foot speed that's at the same level as Jabari and Paolo. I think his feet are considerably slower.

Then there's the fact that if you're not playing him on the perimeter, how is he going to handle grinding with NBA bodies down low and I don't think he can handle that either. So I think he has some amazing qualities like his defensive timing, positioning, feel for the game and even his jumping ability for someone his height but I don't know if without the right kind of guy around him (a fast and strong post player that doesn't necessarily have to have great length) if he will be able to get past his defensive liabilities.

On offense I think he's amazing to watch because he is the one that gets to dictate the pace so his foot speed really doesn't have to come into play. He puts himself in the right spots on that end of the floor too, he has a great hesitation that helps him get by his guy. He hits the open three at a great clip. He both sees the floor well and executes passes at an extremely high level for a big.

I just think putting him in the front court defensively with someone who isn't really quick and really strong is kind of a non starter for me with what I've seen. Nurk also happens to have slow feet for an NBA player... neither of these guys have slow feet for your 90s NBA center but the game has changed and while we can survive with Nurk, he has to have a bunch of guys around him that are really quick and can switch onto smaller guys without getting burnt because Nurk definitely can't and I don't think Chet will be able to at the NBA level either.

 

[Predator]

Bigger as in stronger? He's still relatively skinny and Cleveland uses him defensively in the same way we'd need to use Chet at PF to maximize him. I disagree with Mobley being "much more agile".

I’ve gone thru this before. Mobley weighed between 22-30 lbs more than Chet or something like that when Rasta brought up “skinny people like Kevin Garnett and Evan Mobley” who both had significant weight advantages. And damn near every scout would disagree with you on the agility thing. One of his strengths as a prospect was due to his agility.that ain’t Chet.

 

[blazerkor]

I dint see Jabari as a noticeably better athlete than the other two. He has high, somewhat stiff hips and dkesnt have a remarkable first step whatsoever. The guy really struggled to get by a set defender off the dribble all season long. He's not a remarkable leaper either.

He's also not a better overall defender than Chet. He's solid on the perimeter but doesn't protect the rim at all and isn't noticeably better when switched onto guards.

Chet is a MUCH better finisher than Jabari. Chet shot 80% (80/100) in the halfcourt on non post-ups. I dont have a stat for Jabari but I watched many Auburn games and he struggled around the rim and only shot 43.5% from 2.

I think you're right that Jabari doesn't always move the most efficiently but he's young and some of those kinks tend to work themselves out but watch the video and look at his lateral quickness and his north south speed... I think they're a little better than Paolo and a lot better than Chet. The reason you don't see him blow by his man is because he doesn't put the ball on the floor much at all and when he does he's not that great at it, at this point. Both Chet and obviously Paolo are way better at that. I don't think any of the guys are particularly explosive leapers even though Chet seems like he is because of his length but I think all of them get up pretty well and I'd say without having seen any numbers that Jabari will have the highest vertical if we ever get to see what that is from these guys. As far as what makes Jabari the best all around defender of the three, it's the mix of his athleticism and his motor. I don't think Paolo has his motor and I don't think Chet has his athleticism.

As far as Chet's numbers finishing, Chet doesn't take the kind of contested attempts at the rim or anywhere else that Jabari does. Jabari definitely needs to learn when not to take a jumper or go up in the lane. That 43.5% from 2 can be deceiving because Jabari takes a lot of long contested twos that he'll either have to start making more or like most players cut out from his game.

 

[BigGameDamian]

What if somehow the Lakers ended up with Chet Holmgren? Don’t say it can’t happen.

 

[blazerkor]

What if somehow the Lakers ended up with Chet Holmgren? Don’t say it can’t happen.

It can't happen. They don't have a pick in this draft and don't have the assets to get a pick high enough. I mean I don't even think with LeBron's age and AD's injury problems that teams would take either of those superstars with their salaries for the pick where Holmgren will be taken.

Wait... I know, if Holmgren ends up being a bust (he does have the highest bust potential of the top 3 or 4 guys in this draft) then he might end up on the Lakers or maybe even if he's really successful he'll pull a LeBron and sign with the Lakers later in his career. So I guess that's how he could somehow end up with the Lakers.

 

[wizenheimer]

What if somehow the Lakers ended up with Chet Holmgren? Don’t say it can’t happen.

Lakers don't own their pick this year, and the Pels have the option to swap picks next year while also owning the Lakers 2024 pick. Holmgren woulf have to stay at Gonzaga thru his senior year, then the Lakers draft him in 2025

UNLESS...Blazers get a top-3 pick in this coming lottery and trade it for Lebron!!

 

[tlongII]

I hope they don’t but I believe the Blazers will trade their picks.

 

[illmatic99]

You're not an idiot, so you know the answer.

https://www.theringer.com/2022/4/1/23005486/paolo-banchero-nba-draft-2022