Possible the Rangers aren't that good??? (1 Viewer)

[chuckd3534]

Before anyone starts with the it is 3 games stuff, understand where I am going with this.

I actually like the team and think we are solid. Sure I think DZ needs to be gone 3 years ago for some more O. Sure I think we need another solid scorer upfront, but I think we are a solid team overall.

Am I wearing Ranger colored glasses for thinking that?

A lot of people don't love the team. Not enough size. Not enough speed.

We have played poorly in pretty much every game outside of the LA game (preseason included). Nash could be out for a little while now, best case a week, worst case a lot longer. Hank has not played that well. Contract on his mind? Our D has been very shaky. DZ awful. Girardi awful. On O we can't score as usual. And we have a killer schedule to start the season, which could put us in a huge hole early.

So is it possible we are simply a whatever team? A team that will battle for 7 or 8 best case? A team that has no real shot at all to be an upper level SC type team this season?

I think we are a solid team, but seeing what I have seen, and reading what I have read has started to make me question myself, and make me wonder if we are solid, or if I am simply being a homer.

 

[Ranger71]

It's basically going to be the same story as last year, HL carries them in alot of games but the offense is so weak that they have to scrape to get in, and they may not this year. It's essentially the same roster as last season. AV I believe will be very successful in NY, but it will take 2-3 more years to develop a top 5-6 team that competes for a SC. If Nash starts to deteriorate from injuries and guys like CK and McIlrath don't pan out that will hurt, so they need to nail FA and drafting/developing going forward. We need to be a little patient here, it's hard because they've been sort of hyped up since the run 2 years ago and the inherent nature of NY itself. As much as it pains me to say it, I'd rather have the Isles forward group with this defense and goaltender. Maybe throw in Visnovky on D for the PP. That's a team that could maybe make to June.

 

[chuckd3534]

We need to be a little patient here. That is the funniest line I have ever seen in my life. This team has 1 ECF run in 16 years, and we need to be patient here. I think we have been pretty darn patient...LOL.

The issues as I see them are:

1. Sather. Some in here love him, but the record speaks for itself. Just about 15 years here, and 0 SCF's. 1 ECF. And many 1st round L's and no playoffs. The guy has been TERRIBLE here. There is simply no way to even debate it one drop. Can't even be discussed. The results have been TERRIBLE under him. And even if you defend him by saying look at the youth, I call BS because that hasn't happened yet. Did we win something that I missed? We win and then you can say look at the youth. This is a results business. NO GM would have their job still with his track record here, except a GM for Jim Dolan.

2. Hank is getting older. The guy is in his prime still. You figure he has another 5 years or so of his prime, but he isn't 27 anymore. We need to be a team that looks at 3 years as the window. 4 years from now Hank will be 35. Not saying he will be done, but his best years are now, not 4-5 years from now. That adds pressure to win soon. We have no future goalie.

We are in a tough spot. Expectations were raised for the 1st time in 15 years last season, and we fell flat on our faces. Everyone hoped changing the coach would be the answer, especially Sather since he did nothing else, but who knows if that will work. It could, but the jury is still out.

I would be lying if I said I wasn't concerned at all. I want a cup, not a nice team that can finish 6th. We'll see where we go from here.

 

[Ranger71]

Patience Chuckles!!AV will get it done(you'll be 50 but he will)!!

 

[chuckd3534]

Yeah, SC party in 2035...who is in....

 

[Ranger71]

I've been telling you the past few years it would take 3-4 years to get to be an upper echelon team. Now that they have a better system and some "issues" coming off the books next year let's see what he can put together going forward.

 

[chuckd3534]

We'll see. Funny thing is I seem to remember having this same exact conversation with many 3 years ago. Just wait until Drury comes off. Or the kids come up. Always something else.

I will say this sc, you are an owners fantasy. You say year after year be patient. Wait for this. Then wait for that. They love fans like you.

 

[Ranger71]

Maybe, but by the same token I'm realistic and can see the forest for the trees. I wasn't fooled like many were with scraping to game 6 of the ECF 2 years ago. Teams with staying power don't have to scrape the way they did just to make it that far. That said, they have get most of our top-10 prospects to pan out going forward or who knows. The next step is getting a young GM who knows roster construction to work with AV. Keep Stepan, RC, Moore, McDonagh, Staal and HL as the 5 core guys and start filling in better around them. Nash I'd include but I don't know what will become there.

 

[chuckd3534]

Could be, but at some point fans have to say enough is enough, or change never happens. To keep going back like sheep regardless of results hurts big picture, not helps.

My other issue is these kids we talk about. Any Crosby's? Or OV's? Or Malkin's? Or Tavares'? Or Nash's? Or guys who project to be real big difference makers? Like 1st line 30 goal kids? MAYBE Kreider, but that is a HUGE question mark.

So these kids we always "wait for" are what kind of kids? Nice solid 3rd line guys? Maybe lower 2nd line guys? Certainly not difference makers. And let's remember every team has kids, we are not alone with that. And there is the issue and why "next season" never happens.

 

[NYR31]

I don't think this team is a legitimate cup contender as currently constituted, and i've said as much during the offseason. That's not to say this team can't become a legit cup contender in a short period of time, because we do have Hank, we do have Nash and, most importantly, we have the farm system to pull off a big trade(s) if necessary.

What i would like to see is Sather grow a pair and make a "go for it" trade that will bring this team a top scoring presence to compliment Nash. Another forward the opposing coach has to think about who to put his top D pair against and that when he's on the ice can be a threat whenever he has the puck.

Unfortunately we do need a bit of the patience factor because Lindberg, Fast, McIlrath, Miller are still very young and cannot be asked to be core players this early in their careers, but the foundation to be a very good team is there.

 

[chuckd3534]

You hit on something very key 31. Something I have been pushing for years...make that big go for it deal.

Now we did do some of that with the Nash deal, BUT we did it in a different way. Instead of dealing kids to get that potential stud, we dealt roster players. So that was 2 steps forward and 1 step back. A win overall, but left us short of good quality depth.

To me, to really go all in, I think we should deal a couple of kids for a real proven scoring winger. Package a DZ with a select kid and add that extra scorer we need badly.

I won't go into my how can we play them all, and pay them all, and they won't all pan out BS like I have done for years now. All I will say is we need to be smart. Not all of the kids will pan out. So we kill their value by keeping them, showing other teams their warts, and then they disappear. Deal a select kid or two, with DZ, for a proven scorer. That has been the recipe for 3 years now, so why should anyone think we will get it now???

 

[Disturbed]

I dont think we know what we have yet.

For those saying we will battle for the 8 spot I say fine but I dont think you can say that after 3 games.

They look horrific in the preseason. They looked pretty bad in game 1, good in game 2 and HORRIFC in game 3. Not a good start.

I will say no team with 2 4th lines without ELITE players on lines 1-2 will contend for a cup in todays NHL. The depth of scoring on this team is an issue but I do think it can be fixed this year.

I think we have a really good top 4 defense (McD, Staal, Girardi, Moore) and a capable 5-6 pairing. We have an elite goalie who hasnt played great but I dont worry about Hank. The defense and the goaltending is top 10 in NHL, I dont think you can question that.

So what is the issue? It's scoring but it's also a perfect storm of a few things:

* Brand new system very different than what this team has been TOLD to play for 4 years. Say what you want about Torts but this team largely bought in to his system for fear of not playing but I dont think its easy to just switch. It's going to take time to adjust. Even moreso given they didnt have that many preseason games

* The schedule due to MSG remodel is an abortion. It's one thing to start season with a 9 game road trip (ridiculous) but its another to start it playing out west and playing every game at 10 pm or 10:30 pm. They played Phoenix and then had 3 days off before playing back to back games in LA and SJ. That is ridiculous.

* Cally, Stepan and Hags (still out) had no camp, no preseason and in the case of Cally have played 2 games. Those players are impt to this team. They need time to play they will get better.

I say have some patience - Chuck not patience as in wait til next year - Patience as in lets assess this team when 20 games in when they have actually played a game in their own time zone and (god forbid) on their home ice.

I hate the bottom 2 lines right now. But I do think its fixable. Let Hags come back. Let Stepan and Cally find their legs/game.

It's simply too early to make broad judgements of this team due to the change in system, the injured players and the ridiculous schedule. I would say the same thing if we were 3-0 and beat the Sharks 9-2

 

[chuckd3534]

I am with you dis. Like I said I happen to think it is a solid team. BUT to be fair what we have seen thus far, very small sample size, has been pretty darn bad. I will add one thing though, a move I would make TODAY is deal DZ with a select kid or two for a proven scorer on the wing. I would be on the phones NOW working on that one. It makes too much sense not to happen.

1. We willing to pay DZ long term this summer? I think that is a huge no. So deal him now.
2. When we added Moore it made DZ clearly expendable.
3. McIlrath will be up at some point. How many dmen do we need?

This is a move we have to make. I am not sure why it never happens. But it has to now. Unless you are willing to pay DZ long term, you have to deal him.

BTW...if we keep him, and don't re-sign him, and he simply goes elsewhere, I will flip out. That would be ridiculous.

 

[Ranger71]

Even if they turn things around and have a solid year it's at best a 2nd round exit again, so we need to look at what will get them to the upper echelon consistently for the next 2-4 years. Cutting the cap issues will help next year, and hopefully most of this next wave of kids pan out. They also need to hit on the next few FA they sign, like a pp guy and impact forward. Maybe they end up dealing Staal for other pieces but I'm starting to lean towards keeping him since he's back to normal. You can trade DZ and maybe CK in a package but you'll only get 68c on the dollar in return. Hopefully Kreider pans out.

 

[Disturbed]

Even if they turn things around and have a solid year it's at best a 2nd round exit again, so we need to look at what will get them to the upper echelon consistently for the next 2-4 years. Cutting the cap issues will help next year, and hopefully most of this next wave of kids pan out. They also need to hit on the next few FA they sign, like a pp guy and impact forward. Maybe they end up dealing Staal for other pieces but I'm starting to lean towards keeping him since he's back to normal. You can trade DZ and maybe CK in a package but you'll only get 68c on the dollar in return. Hopefully Kreider pans out.

I dont agree with this at all. Not saying its likely but there are plenty of teams who have made the finals without the best rosters. They need a crease clearer and PP QB. They need scoring on the 3rd line. Scoring depth at forward is very fixable. Dmen is harder....But to absolutely say they wont make it out of 2nd round, well I dont agree with that but I will give you there are obvious roster flaws

 

[Ranger71]

When you look at the roster it's basically a bottom 10 forward group, top 10 defensive group and top 3 goaltender. That equals average. Other teams are passing them by with bigger, faster and better depth(Tor, Ott, StL, even the Isles). Like you said Chuck, the fans always want the here and now, but at some point they need to stop chasing the dogs tail and suck it up with a few lean years to get better.

 

[Ranger71]

I dont agree with this at all. Not saying its likely but there are plenty of teams who have made the finals without the best rosters. They need a crease clearer and PP QB. They need scoring on the 3rd line. Scoring depth at forward is very fixable. Dmen is harder....But to absolutely say they wont make it out of 2nd round, well I dont agree with that but I will give you there are obvious roster flaws

I hear you Dist, and certain things can be helped with an in-season trade(or two), and yes you can get out of the 2nd round with a few lucky bounces, but generally speaking we need to start looking beyond this year into what AV can do going forward by reshaping some of the roster to his liking and cultivating some of these prospects. I worry that as long as Sather is here he will continue to make some dumb FA choices which may hinder them.

 

[BigDaddyAl1973]

let's ask this question...what big time goal scorer is going to be traded? start with that...start with a target and see what it will take...I do not think Del Zerro brings that back..i don't think del zero and a kid brings that back. Ive been down on Del Zerro for the last two years, he has had one great month and the rest ...average sandis ozolinch

now onto what I hope will happen like last year...

last year if you remember I was screaming for Stepan to be sent to the minors he was playing like crap, he eventually found his game and in turn the team played better....I think this will happen again.

 

[chuckd3534]

Big time goal scorer, no way. Solid 20 or so goal scorer, sure. And that is what I am looking for.

 

[puck2]

this team will once again go as far as hank will take them. we simply do not have the talent that permeates around the NHL these days. we cannot compete offensively with about 10 teams in this league. we will need to play a conservative style of play ( five in the picture, blocking shots etc. ) Power play will be crucial. 20-25 % anything less will mean no playoffs. Also Marty Biron and MDZ need to be removed from the roster pronto

 

[Ranger71]

Vanek is the first one that jumps out if Buffalo is bad through the NewYear. Could you get him for DZ, prospect and a 2nd? He is a UFA so it would cost a little less. I don't think that alone would put them in contention, plus he makes 7m so they'd have to send another player with DZ.

 

[Ranger71]

I would even think about Hemsky for DZ and a prospect. Glencross too.

 

[NYR31]

I might be interested in someone like Versteeg. Not sure of his contract situation but the Panthers are probably going to be pretty bad so they might look for prospects for him.

 

[Malco]

Could be, but at some point fans have to say enough is enough, or change never happens. To keep going back like sheep regardless of results hurts big picture, not helps.

My other issue is these kids we talk about. Any Crosby's? Or OV's? Or Malkin's? Or Tavares'? Or Nash's? Or guys who project to be real big difference makers? Like 1st line 30 goal kids? MAYBE Kreider, but that is a HUGE question mark.

So these kids we always "wait for" are what kind of kids? Nice solid 3rd line guys? Maybe lower 2nd line guys? Certainly not difference makers. And let's remember every team has kids, we are not alone with that. And there is the issue and why "next season" never happens.

From what I can see so far, Nash does not belong in the same paragraph let alone sentence with those other players..

 

[chuckd3534]

According to Giannone, the lines at practice are:
-Benoit Pouliot, Brad Richards, Ryan Callahan
-Brian Boyle, Derick Brassard, Mats Zuccarello
-Taylor Pyatt, Derek Stepan, Jesper Fast
-Derek Dorsett, Dominic Moore, Arron Asham

 

[chuckd3534]

Look at those lines. My lord that is bad.

Boyle on the 2nd line. Stepan with Pyatt and Fast. Just wow.

Also changed up the D pairings:

-Marc Staal and Dan Girardi
-Ryan McDonagh and Anton Stralman
-John Moore and Michael Del Zotto

 

[theProdigy223]

Bobby Ryan would have been perfect for this team. I know some people aren't high on him but we easily could have packaged DZ and a kid for him, considering what ANH ended up taking for him. There's a 30+ goal scorer who was available and we didn't pull the trigger. Now we're stuck with Bryan Boyle as a 2nd line winger.

Glad to see AV is doing the old Torts trick of pulling names out of a hat to make his lines. Why in the world would you put Pyatt and Fast on the same line, then center them with Stepan? They play three completely different games.

 

[Ranger71]

Pack up the tents!

 

[Stepupstepan]

yeah, those lines are pretty terrible but he will change them when the game starts. Hagelin cant come back soon enough.

 

[chuckd3534]

When we are begging for a 3rd line 15 or so goal guy like Hags to get back ASAP, you know there are some issue upfront...LOL.